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Old 08-05-2017, 07:18 AM   #81
BubblyShell22
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What people need to get is that not everyone is going to have the same mindset about things no matter what it is. Equality goes both ways, but SJWs and other idiots don't see it that way. They see it as, "You need to believe what I believe and if you don't, you're bigoted and hateful." That is extremely narrow-minded thinking on their parts.

Hey, while we're at it, let's encourage someone who's depressed and suicidal to kill themselves instead of seeking help for it, or someone with anorexia to binge and purge because they're just being themselves. By encouraging transgenders to be who they think they are instead of seeking help for their unhappiness and trying to get them to see that changing themselves isn't the answer, we're just contributing to the problem and teaching our youth the wrong lesson and encouraging mental illness to exist.

I don't care if you think I'm bigoted and hateful for my views. This is the way I see it and if that makes me bigoted and hateful, then I'm proud to be so. At least I'm not conforming to everyone else and I'm sticking to my views.
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Old 08-05-2017, 07:27 AM   #82
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It's funny how Bubbly compares being transgender as being suicidal or bulimic, cause in the UK, being trans is still considered a mental illness. But, the treatment is transitioning, so by keeping the outdated "mental illness label" trans people can transition under the NHS (at least last time I checked it might have been screwed over by the conservatives by now).
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Old 08-05-2017, 09:29 AM   #83
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In the States we've begun to refer to transitional surgery as Confirmation Surgeries, because yeah...that's what they do.

Which isn't to say that surgery is necessary to transition, because it isn't.
(Buck Angel is proof enough of that. Warning: don't google Buck if you're not over 18.)

Transitioning won't magically cause the world to be less of a crap place towards trans folk, nor will it magically give them a supportive family....in the blood sense, not in the found sense. The trans community is a pretty welcoming place overall.

When people equate trans folks with being depressed, they overwhelmingly blame it on the person and not the environment the person is in. I think they do it to absolve themselves of being the creators and maintainers of that environment.

It's like, I'm going to keep kicking you when you're down, and it's your fault for not getting up fast enough...not my fault for continuing to kick you.

(Watch though, those are the folks that react the most spectacularly when they, in turn, get kicked.)
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Old 08-05-2017, 02:31 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by plastroncafe View Post
In the States we've begun to refer to transitional surgery as Confirmation Surgeries, because yeah...that's what they do.
The confirmation of people's lust and desire to be another sex, definitely, thinking it will bring them contentment and relief.

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Which isn't to say that surgery is necessary to transition, because it isn't.
(Buck Angel is proof enough of that. Warning: don't google Buck if you're not over 18.)
Well, I did google her, and she did have a significant amount of testosterone injections even if she did not have surgery. However, the biggest transition of all is the transition of the mind, not the body. I'm sure we both agree on that.

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Transitioning won't magically cause the world to be less of a crap place towards trans folk, nor will it magically give them a supportive family....in the blood sense, not in the found sense. The trans community is a pretty welcoming place overall.

When people equate trans folks with being depressed, they overwhelmingly blame it on the person and not the environment the person is in. I think they do it to absolve themselves of being the creators and maintainers of that environment.

It's like, I'm going to keep kicking you when you're down, and it's your fault for not getting up fast enough...not my fault for continuing to kick you.

(Watch though, those are the folks that react the most spectacularly when they, in turn, get kicked.)
I believe it does actually depend on the person and not just the environment. There are people who have died and endured pain for far nobler causes and even if their efforts ended in failure, what mattered in the end was standing up for whats right no matter what. They won't blame it on the person kicking them every time they go down, they won't blame anyone.

They will keep on trying up to get up or die trying with honour. They are are far more fulfilled than those like the trans community who seek worldly validation, because they aren't lusting and desiring after those things, but live a much greater life than that. They are the true heroes, and ultimate happiness is theirs.
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Old 08-05-2017, 02:43 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo View Post
The confirmation of people's lust and desire to be another sex, definitely, thinking it will bring them contentment and relief.
For some it does.

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Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo View Post
Well, I did google her, and she did have a significant amount of testosterone injections even if she did not have surgery. However, the biggest transition of all is the transition of the mind, not the body. I'm sure we both agree on that.
Him.
I know you're doing this on purpose to troll, and it's not appreciated.
If nothing else all it does is identify you as a person not to be trusted.
So...thanks for that.

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I believe it does actually depend on the person and not just the environment. There are people who have died and endured pain for far nobler causes and even if their efforts ended in failure, what mattered in the end was standing up for whats right no matter what. They won't blame it on the person kicking them every time they go down, they won't blame anyone.

They will keep on trying up to get up or die trying with honour. They are are far more fulfilled than those like the trans community who seek worldly validation, because they aren't lusting and desiring after those things, but live a much greater life than that. They are the true heroes, and ultimate happiness is theirs.
It's nice that you think that.
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Old 08-05-2017, 02:51 PM   #86
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It's funny how Bubbly compares being transgender as being suicidal or bulimic, cause in the UK, being trans is still considered a mental illness. But, the treatment is transitioning, so by keeping the outdated "mental illness label" trans people can transition under the NHS (at least last time I checked it might have been screwed over by the conservatives by now).
Kappa..... Transgender is still recognized as a mental health issue by "Who"
Its call Gender Dysphoria.
The jury is still out on whether it is a biological factor or a behavioral factor or even both.

Bottom line is Bubbly has a point. If a person is suffering from the illness Gender Dysphoria then we should try counseling first at least to rule out environmental factors. If a person is still adamant about transition then seriously talk about transitioning and continue to see a counselor through the process.
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Old 08-05-2017, 03:05 PM   #87
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Kappa..... Transgender is still recognized as a mental health issue by "Who"
Its call Gender Dysphoria.
The jury is still out on whether it is a biological factor or a behavioral factor or even both.

Bottom line is Bubbly has a point. If a person is suffering from the illness Gender Dysphoria then we should try counseling first at least to rule out environmental factors. If a person is still adamant about transition then seriously talk about transitioning and continue to see a counselor through the process.
This is exactly what already happens.
Just...so everyone is aware.

Biological Sex is more than just the existence of an X or a Y chromosome.
There's just more to it than that.

I took molecular cell biology in 2002. There were literally portions of the human genome referred to by the professor as "junk DNA" because we hadn't discovered what it did.

Fast forward to 2017 and all those little coding repeats we couldn't understand are now known by the name CRISPR (Clustered regularly interspaced short palindromic repeats).

If someone can be genetically XX and still develop male, and someone born genetically XY but can still develop female, then why is it such a stretch of the imagination to accept trans* folks?
I mean, short of just outright willful ignorance.

It's just really no different than the people who willingly beat my grandmother in the name of Christ because she dared to be left-handed.
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Old 08-05-2017, 04:35 PM   #88
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I think they should also research why people feel this way and what causes them to feel that they identify as a different gender. It's different if say a male develops breasts and that is a sign of a hormonal problem. But for people who just say that they identify as a different gender, it would be nice to really pinpoint the exact problem in their brain that is making them feel this way.

But thank you, Redeemer, for backing me up on this.
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Old 08-05-2017, 05:39 PM   #89
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This thread is interesting to read because I know very little about transgender except what's in the news. Does the definition of transgender change based on the society one lives in. If it's about behavior and appearance. Doesn't socially acceptable appearance and behavior for specific genders change depending on the area of the world you live in and it's culture. Or is transgender about the anatomy? I never heard about someone being XX and developing as male. Seems there could be a third gender or even more. I read recently Caitlyn Jenner upset some people because they thought she encouraged harmful gender stereotypes. Everything about this conversation confuses me and I think it must confuse others as well.
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Old 08-05-2017, 05:43 PM   #90
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TI never heard about someone being XX and developing as male.
It's called XX Male Syndrome.

Genetics is fascinating, and no where near as clear cut as the Punnet Squares most people learn about in high school biology would lead us to believe.
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Old 08-05-2017, 05:45 PM   #91
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There's also Swyer Syndrome with women.

Genetics is complicated, especially when gender is involved. And yes, it does expand past XX and XY, but it's not always..."functional".
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Old 08-05-2017, 06:00 PM   #92
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Is genetic testing routine before confirmation surgery?
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Old 08-05-2017, 06:26 PM   #93
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I don't think it is.

Usually the genetic testing is done, especially in the cases of Swyer Syndrome, to determine why <puberty step here> isn't happening to someone when it doesn't happen to them after a particular time.
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Old 08-05-2017, 06:43 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plastroncafe View Post
This is exactly what already happens.
Just...so everyone is aware.

Biological Sex is more than just the existence of an X or a Y chromosome.
There's just more to it than that.

I took molecular cell biology in 2002. There were literally portions of the human genome referred to by the professor as "junk DNA" because we hadn't discovered what it did.

Fast forward to 2017 and all those little coding repeats we couldn't understand are now known by the name CRISPR (Clustered regularly interspaced short palindromic repeats).

If someone can be genetically XX and still develop male, and someone born genetically XY but can still develop female, then why is it such a stretch of the imagination to accept trans* folks?
I mean, short of just outright willful ignorance.

It's just really no different than the people who willingly beat my grandmother in the name of Christ because she dared to be left-handed.
I heard of the term Junk DNA before, but not "CRISPR" sounds very interesting and sounds like it explains the biological factor part. Surgery would defiantly be a benefit.

My earlier post was to point out that a person who identifies as transgender could be suffering from gender dysphoria. I personally think it could be either or causing someone to identify as transgender.

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Is genetic testing routine before confirmation surgery?
With what plstroncafe pointed out I don't think its possible at this time. But if a test could be run it would help separate people who's gender dysphoria is psychologically driven and those who's is biologically driven.
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Old 08-05-2017, 07:12 PM   #95
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All this stuff on sex and gender is cool and all, but can we all at least agree that people who identify as animals are ****ing insane and need help?
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Old 08-05-2017, 07:36 PM   #96
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I heard of the term Junk DNA before, but not "CRISPR" sounds very interesting and sounds like it explains the biological factor part.
CRISPR is amazing!
It's basically a bacteria's version of an immune system, and by using it we can "convince" cells to do all sorts of things. The technology is just...it's mind blowing. Damn near literally a game changer.
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Old 08-06-2017, 01:45 AM   #97
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I've put a lot of thought into this, but I really haven't really come up with anything conclusive.

Strictly going on biology, what makes a male a male and what makes a female a female:

A) MALE:
* You have a penis.
* You (can)
Spoiler:
insert said penis into a vagina, ejaculate, and impregnate
a female.
* Your skin is a little tougher to bruise than a female's, and your breast tissue doesn't develop.
* Your muscle tissue develops naturally easier than a female's.
* You might go bald.
* Your voice is deeper because your adam's apple develops way more.
* You will generally live a good amount less long than a female.
* Statistically you'll be a bit taller than females.

B) FEMALE:
* You have a vagina.
* You (can)
Spoiler:
receive a penis into your vagina, receive its ejaculate, and conceive
a child as a result.
* Your skin is a little more susceptible to bruising than a male's, and your breast tissue develops in order to nurse any offspring you have.
* Your muscle tissue doesn't develop as easily as it does for a male.
* You won't go bald. 99% odds, you won't.
* Your voice is not as deep as a man's because you never develop an adam's apple.
* You will generally live a good amount longer than a male.
* Statistically you'll be a bit shorter than males.

That's about it, right? Is that about right?

There are others, but those appear to me to be the only big hallmark things set by nature that set the sexes apart. If a female baby and a male baby raise themselves in the wilderness, those are really the only things that would seem to set themselves apart. And that's the thing I keep coming back to... male and female toddler, in the woods on an island, Blue Lagoon-style. What happens? And what happens if you run the same experiment 100 times? What makes one male and what makes one female? Behaviorally, would one have a predilection to smearing berries on their face as crude makeup, or fashioning dresses over the other? I don't think that's there. I tend to think there'd be some pretty base-level stuff going on... protecting the mate, guarding the home, rearing the children, gathering foodstuffs. It'd reason to say that the male, as occurs in nature, would be fashioned genetically as the primary hunter/gatherer to protect the female for the time when the female is rather vulnerable for 9 months at a time (genetically, species are pretty good about "OK, there NEEDS to be a protection mechanism during this time," whether it's the mate himself or something else). Now, at this point it's a little wonky in nature... the male can completely become disposable. Mating is done, the male can be eaten and consumed (or just wanders off), his duty done. This is a thing. One thing, anyway. But generally the male can be a throwaway thing. And that's fine.

What I don't wholly understand is (just as one example) "I am a transgender female, this means I want to right away put on a skirt, makeup, long hair, and painted nails." Because none of those items are coming from the place of genetics, DNA, or anything biological. They can't. These are man-made constructs, borne of culture and society. Surely there is nothing biologically or genetically female about these things. Now, I understand there are transgender people that don't adhere to those stereotypes... but they seem a bit few and far between. Pretty much, the transitioning seems to be (to use the transgender female example) "let me get myself and everyone in my circle used to me wearing 'girl clothes,' long hair and makeup while I take these hormones or don't," no?

I'm totally the last guy to tell anyone what to do. I am more than OK with anyone doing whatever the hell they want to do as long as it's not hurting anyone else. Totally cool. You want to become a male or female, change your gender, register as such, surgery or not and even get married to either gender, and enjoy exactly the same benefits as every other couple? Perfectly fine by me. I'd just like to understand the science behind that a little more before I can say, "OK, I get that, that's completely innate on a genetic level" because right now I don't entirely grasp it as I currently understand it. I admit I am not a genetics expert, remotely.

And don't get me wrong. I have an uncle that became an aunt. I'm not insensitive to it at all and I'd be open to someone explaining it to me in a way that I can wrap my head completely around.

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Old 08-06-2017, 04:24 AM   #98
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I see where you are coming from with some of that Andrew in regards to tropes and what's supposedly for boys and for girls. Another perfect case in point here... we traditionally associate blue with boys, and pink with girls, right? Wrong. As recent as the late Victorian period here in the UK, blue was associated with girls and pink was associated with boys. When and why did they swap? No one is particularly sure, but it did. So having girls in pink and it being a "girly" colour is not much more than a century old here, and I'd argue probably way less than that in terms of specific gender identity.
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Old 08-06-2017, 05:57 AM   #99
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Yeah, the shift of switching blue into a "boy's color" and pink into a "girl's color" happened around the 1940's
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:13 AM   #100
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Kappa..... Transgender is still recognized as a mental health issue by "Who"
Its call Gender Dysphoria.
The jury is still out on whether it is a biological factor or a behavioral factor or even both.

Bottom line is Bubbly has a point. If a person is suffering from the illness Gender Dysphoria then we should try counseling first at least to rule out environmental factors. If a person is still adamant about transition then seriously talk about transitioning and continue to see a counselor through the process.

^^^this all day...

This case is all about a MAN who couldn't cut it as a man, so is using the current messed up PC bs to call himself a woman just so he can do what he has done, beat the compitition... And then bragging about it.

Also, if you are suffering from this, you don't need my permission or my consent and you will never have my agreement that adding or removing bodyparts as being the solution to "fix" the (mental health) problem.
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