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Old 01-24-2018, 02:54 PM   #21
Sumac
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You would still have an old west shootout at school traumatizing many people.
Better,'em be traumatized, than dead.
Can't see how that can be even a question.
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Old 01-24-2018, 02:59 PM   #22
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You'd rather these many people be potentially dead than potentially traumatized? If you're a student in the middle of a school shooting, chances are you're probably going to be traumatized anyway. And getting teachers proper firearm safety and training would avoid an "old west shootout."



Of course. But failing that... just lay down and cross your fingers? Really?
Don’t trained military still have things called friendly fire and collateral damage. I’m not super familiar with the terms. But I’d imaging in the heat of the moment Mr Smith the math teacher may not be on his A Game.
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Old 01-24-2018, 03:01 PM   #23
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Better,'em be traumatized, than dead.
Can't see how that can be even a question.
If I had to pick between those two things I would agree to pick trauma over death yes. However I would like to see a solution that avoids both.

Last edited by TurtleWA; 01-24-2018 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 01-24-2018, 03:01 PM   #24
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Don’t trained military still have things called friendly fire and collateral damage. I’m not that familiar with the terms. But I’d imaging in the heat of the moment Mr Smith the math teacher may not be on his A Game.
Mr. Smith the math teacher better have had a good score in accuracy on last quarter's trip to the gun range or Mr. Smith won't be the math teacher anymore.

And better a small chance of friendly fire in putting the brakes on a 100% chance of as much not-so-friendly fire as the shooter feels like raining down anywhere in the school, at will, than no chance of survival at all.

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Old 01-24-2018, 03:08 PM   #25
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Arming the teachers with guns is an interesting idea. Not sure if I agree with it or not. Don't have a solution myself to suggest.

I do wonder if that exacerbates the problem though, rather than stemming it at the root. Not to say that idea makes the issue worse, but I don't know if "guns + guns + guns" is the correct solution.

I'm not 100% sold on the idea that better healthcare and harder to access guns would stop this. These are things that should probably be done regardless though, so it's a good place to start.
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Old 01-24-2018, 03:09 PM   #26
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Maybe security guards?
Like, yeah. How is this not the obvious solution, at least for now.

Were school resource officers not a thing at y'all's schools? Police officers stationed on-site? When I was in high school I thought the officers and metal detectors were a bit Orwellian but they're considerably more preferable than more deaths.
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Old 01-24-2018, 03:10 PM   #27
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And if Mr Smith the math teacher accidentally hits one of his kids while trying to combat an assailant, then he won't be a math teacher much longer either.

Better still, when the authorities DO arrive, Mr Smith will then have to worry about whether he's seen as an assailant.

All the police have to do is feel threatened.
And with that in mind, yeah, let's put more police in schools too.
Because nothing aids the learning environment more than treating your students like criminals from day one.
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Old 01-24-2018, 03:57 PM   #28
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All the police have to do is feel threatened.
And with that in mind, yeah, let's put more police in schools too.
Because nothing aids the learning environment more than treating your students like criminals from day one.
That's a whole other can of worms that deserves its own thread if we want to get into the use of excessive/lethal force by the police in unwarranted situations
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Old 01-24-2018, 04:05 PM   #29
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That's a whole other can of worms that deserves its own thread if we want to get into the use of excessive/lethal force by the police in unwarranted situations
Agreed, but...I thought it could use a bit of lipservice here with folks suggesting that having more authority around will automatically decrease violence in schools.
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Old 01-24-2018, 04:09 PM   #30
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Agreed, but...I thought it could use a bit of lipservice here with folks suggesting that having more authority around will automatically decrease violence in schools.
But we've already tried -- thoroughly -- having no authority... and look what happens, over and over again.
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Old 01-24-2018, 04:14 PM   #31
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Agreed, but...I thought it could use a bit of lipservice here with folks suggesting that having more authority around will automatically decrease violence in schools.
I completely agree, I just think it's a more sound idea to have people stationed at schools whose sole job is to ensure security and safety, rather than add another duty to the already overworked and underpaid teachers.

But yeah, then we get into the issue of police needing to police themselves, a whole "who watches the watchmen" type deal.
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Old 01-24-2018, 04:19 PM   #32
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I completely agree, I just think it's a more sound idea to have people stationed at schools whose sole job is to ensure security and safety, rather than add another duty to the already overworked and underpaid teachers.

But yeah, then we get into the issue of police needing to police themselves, a whole "who watches the watchmen" type deal.
Dedicated, armed security guards would be something, at least.
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Old 01-24-2018, 04:19 PM   #33
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Agreed, but...I thought it could use a bit of lipservice here with folks suggesting that having more authority around will automatically decrease violence in schools.
I think there is a big difference between something like gated entrance to a school that has a security officer. Maybe a metal detector at the doors. And a police officer patrolling the halls looking for “suspicious thugs.” I don’t think anyone wants an armed hall monitor.
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Old 01-24-2018, 04:21 PM   #34
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But we've already tried -- thoroughly -- having no authority... and look what happens, over and over again.
I don't believe this is at all true.

There's a lot that could be done to stop stuff like this, but...you'd have to be a SJW to suggest it, and people won't want to pay for it.
Of course, people don't want to pay for what they've already got, which in my home school district isn't enough money to pay for full time custodians.

I think the gunhappy people should start teaching.
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Old 01-24-2018, 04:21 PM   #35
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As long as they're armed. Walkie talkies and tough talking won't cut it.
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Old 01-24-2018, 04:25 PM   #36
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Seeing armed guards or armed teaches as a valid "solution" is as alien to me as a ****ing Lovecraftian elder gods in the flesh. Like holy ****, fix your issues with mental health, healthcare and proper gun regulation and teach some respect for lethal weapons, not pile more crap on students like trigger happy wannnabee-cops itching for "action".
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Old 01-24-2018, 04:26 PM   #37
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Now I'm wondering why campus security isn't a common practice.

10-15 years ago, it may have seemed a little too "big brother", but in the current climate, it seems necessary.
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Old 01-24-2018, 04:29 PM   #38
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Seeing armed guards or armed teaches as a valid "solution" is as alien to me as a ****ing Lovecraftian elder gods in the flesh. Like holy ****, fix your issues with mental health, healthcare and proper gun regulation and teach some respect for lethal weapons, not pile more crap on students like trigger happy wannnabee-cops itching for "action".
We're Americans, we don't historically have a great sense of The Long Game.
SO long as it looks like it's working, it's working...regardless of actual efficacy.

I'll never forget the front page of the local news paper when airport security decided liquids weren't allowed through security: Big ol' picture of random security guard just dumping a bottle of clear liquid into a trashcan of presumably other liquids.
This should horrify anyone who's ever taken basic chemistry. You just don't randomly dispose of unknown reagents that way. It's dangerous.

But it looks good and efficient, so...they went with it.

My hometown school district had to lay off the entire custodial staff due to budget cuts, but people want armed security guards posted at the doors.
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Old 01-24-2018, 04:44 PM   #39
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Now I'm wondering why campus security isn't a common practice.

10-15 years ago, it may have seemed a little too "big brother", but in the current climate, it seems necessary.
So true, I agree.

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We're Americans, we don't historically have a great sense of The Long Game.
SO long as it looks like it's working, it's working...regardless of actual efficacy.

I'll never forget the front page of the local news paper when airport security decided liquids weren't allowed through security: Big ol' picture of random security guard just dumping a bottle of clear liquid into a trashcan of presumably other liquids.
This should horrify anyone who's ever taken basic chemistry. You just don't randomly dispose of unknown reagents that way. It's dangerous.

But it looks good and efficient, so...they went with it.

My hometown school district had to lay off the entire custodial staff due to budget cuts, but people want armed security guards posted at the doors.
If it ever happened it would most likely be a separate federal funding source. Not really something that a school needs to figure out how to budget for. Last time I checked metal detectors only discriminate against metal. Bring all the mouth wash to school you want.
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Old 01-24-2018, 05:33 PM   #40
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Whether arming teachers and other school staff is a feasible solution I do know that an overwhelming majority of these mass shooters when facing an equal force (i.e. someone with a gun) they are either shot by another armed person or they quickly shoot themselves. Of course this isnít always the case but from what Iíve seen it seems to go this way more often than not.

Iím all for a law abiding citizen being able to protect themselves and their loved ones with the best means available. I would not have a problem with teachers that are well trained in firearms use protecting my kids at school. I would however prefer I be the one carrying the gun and watching over my kids but I canít be with them every minute of every day.
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