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Old 02-21-2021, 06:15 PM   #1701
AquaParade
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The top grossing films are nearly all over two hours, so audiences can handle it.
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Old 02-21-2021, 06:27 PM   #1702
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you were one of those who would buy full screen versions of DVDs instead of widescreen to "see more" before widescreen tvs were everywhere? If you don't care losing inches then just crop it or worse of stretch it. I'm sure modern TVs must still have those options.
What? Of course not. And stretching? What a horrible thought.

And no, this isn't apples to apples. Non-IMAX movie footage is all shot "wide." In the old days of pan and scan "square" TVs, the whole left and the whole right would get lopped off and you'd lose all that footage that was always supposed to be on the screen. Terrible. Since back in "those" days the best you could get was a DVD player at best, which only plays in 480p... so you're not really "losing" much of anything by not taking advantage of the top and bottoms of your square TV. Now? Quite another story. And directorially cropping his footage from IMAX to wide isn't the same thing as the "This movie has been edited to fit your TV" chopping of the left and right of yore... it's not being self indulgent and following one of the first lessons they teach you in film school (know your framing, keep it tight, keep the audience's focus and not "raaaghhh!! MAXIMUM frame, IMAX everything! everything in the frame always!").

And Snyder is only doing this ratio now because he can and HBO Max is like "yeah, whatever," not because this was his plan all along for theaters with his version.
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Old 02-22-2021, 10:15 AM   #1703
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Snyder planned to have Bruce and Lois in a relationship after Clark's death, Warner nixed it

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...gue-snyder-cut

...Which is hilarious considering Timm was allowed to put Lois and Bruce together for the duration of his show's own Batman/Superman team-up


...The Passion of the Clown?

Spoiler:

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Old 02-22-2021, 10:44 AM   #1704
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That sounds like a bad idea. Of course, you never know until execution, but does Bruce really need more conflict with Clark? Maybe if that was how the conflict was initially established, but to just throw another roadblock between them on the pile seems superfluous. They literally just found common ground before he died.

Besides, it makes Lois unlikable, at least in the context of the film. It'd be a hard sell and you'd have to put in the work to make audiences sympathize with her, among everything else going on in the film.

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Old 02-22-2021, 11:40 AM   #1705
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Snyder loves conflicts.
Like a 14 year old loves edgy rude characters with guns, ruthlessly killing and maiming opponents, making nihilistic remarks and being brooding...oh, wait...
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Old 02-22-2021, 01:49 PM   #1706
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Snyder planned to have Bruce and Lois in a relationship after Clark's death, Warner nixed it

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...gue-snyder-cut

...Which is hilarious considering Timm was allowed to put Lois and Bruce together for the duration of his show's own Batman/Superman team-up


...The Passion of the Clown?

But I thought Superman was the Snyder Jesus? Is the Joker the Anti-Christ? Or is it Superman who is the Anti-Christ?
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Old 02-23-2021, 01:39 AM   #1707
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Eh, that's not really a big deal. BvS already foreshadowed something between Bruce and Lois in the Knightmare Timeline, something that could have been a catalyst for Superman succumbing to the Anti-Life Equation. Telling Bruce "...and you took her from me" is pretty blatant foreshadowing, in hindsight. It was probably supposed to be the lead-in for the Bruce/Lois subplot until WB chopped it.

The way Snyder actually explains it makes a lot of sense. Context is everything. Of course, I know nobody actually reads full articles for in-context quotes, they jump right to making quips because they're all writing experts and they instinctively know what Does and Doesn't work, which is why they're all such successful and creative storytellers in their own right. But the fact is it could have definitely made sense depending on how it was done. There's plenty of comics-canon examples of Bruce and Lois having some sparks at various times, it's not in any way unprecedented. And it's not like they would have stayed together, anyway. At first I just kinda shrugged, but then reading the way he explained it I kinda would have actually liked to see that explored. There's a certain tragedy in it with Lois representing Bruce finally getting a chance to be happy and live a "normal life", but then the only way he can save the world is to bring Superman back, which would mean losing Lois and in turn his only chance to be "happy and normal". So he has to sacrifice all that for the greater good, because the world needs Superman more than Bruce Wayne needs a normal life. Pretty poignant stuff, actually.

I think it actually would have made Bruce's arc in Justice League richer, if he had some sort of internal conflict going on instead of being so completely single-minded. What we got - and probably will get - was more or less, "I need to bring Superman back, because I kinda feel bad that I half-got him killed." But there's no arc there, no internal conflict; he moves in a straight line from Point A to Point B, he knows what he wants to do and he does it. But with the Lois subplot added on, now there's an extra layer to the character, in the way Snyder explained it. He's caught in a Catch-22 of, he sees the League as his chance to give it all up and retire to a life of normalcy, BUT to fulfill the League's mission he has to ensure that his only chance at said normalcy goes completely out the window by bringing the guy his new girlfriend is really in love with back into the picture. There's some interesting stuff going on, there, and now suddenly Bruce would have an actual arc; he becomes an actual "person" in the story and not just a plot device who gives expositional speeches, which is mostly what he was in the theatrical cut of Justice League.

I like that about Zack's stories. I like that there are a lot of emotional Ups and Downs, that things can get complicated for the characters, and that things don't simply move in a straight, predictable line from opening credits to closing credits. Those extra things are called "subplots" and "texture", not "piling on".

Yeah, the more I actually think about it, the more I wish they'd actually gone there. There could have been some really great character moments between Lois, Bruce, and eventually Clark. In at least one version of the script, Bruce was going to die in JL Part II and then Lois and Clark would have revealed at the end of the film that they'd named their newborn baby after him. And that, also, would have made somewhat more sense if they'd gone with the Lois/Bruce subplot.

There's honestly more reasons it would have been interesting and cool than not. But you actually gotta stop and think about all the inherent storytelling possibilities and all the things it was supposed to foreshadow story-wise.
---------

Anyways. That Vanity Fair article talks about a brand new ending Snyder shot just for this cut of the movie, with a "mind-blowing" super-hero cameo that's supposed to be a huge surprise. Could this finally be the long-awaited, oft-rumored Green Lantern appearance? Could be Martian Manhunter, but the cat's been out of the bag on his inclusion in the film for so long that the way they worded it sort of makes me think it's someone else.

But I'd just about bet anything that it's either Green Lantern OR Martian Manhunter. Pretty exciting.
----

EDIT: Zack apparently declined a salary for finishing the movie, meaning that the past year of reshoots, editing, etc. was all done purely out of altruism. That's pretty incredible. I mean yeah, he got paid for his work the first time around, but he still essentially did an entire extra year's worth of work "off the clock" (while still working on another movie, on top of that) to be able to put out a finished product, whereas WB just wanted to shotgun the unfinished workprint out on the internet and call it a day.

You can say his style isn't to your taste but there's no questioning the guy's integrity. I don't know anybody else who would've done that kinda thing.
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Old 02-23-2021, 07:03 AM   #1708
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This would've been interesting to see happen. Wasn't the Bruce/Lois relationship used in other storylines besides the DCAU crossover? Reminds me of the Cyclops/Jean Grey/Wolverine love triangle. Reading further into it, I'm a little disappointed WB scrapped this.
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Old 02-23-2021, 01:42 PM   #1709
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Eh, that's not really a big deal. BvS already foreshadowed something between Bruce and Lois
Kind of is... in that it doesn't make any sense, can be added to the list of crazy things that are happening in rapid order just because whatever (i.e., we just met Superman 2 movies ago, he didn't start being Superman until 1 movie ago -- which was the same movie he died in -- and we just met Batman in the same movie, and so on), and absolutely nobody wants to see this happen.

Again, maybe this is the kind of thing that something could be done with around DCEU Movie #13 or so, when we've "lived" with these characters for a while and there are interactions over multiple movies and years. Like, you could get subtle hints of this or that with Bruce and Lois, then maybe some not so subtle ones. Then years later... the payoff. Not, SURPRISE, everything in one movie out of nowhere.
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Old 02-23-2021, 05:22 PM   #1710
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You are WAY too hung up on the idea that every single plot point absolutely requires four or five movies of build-up before anyone can be "allowed" to care about it, my man.

By your oft-stated logic, nothing in the Lord of the Rings trilogy has any emotional impact because "We just met these characters" and "We haven't had enough time to get emotionally invested" and all'a that jazz.

Still love you man. I'm just saying, a lot of these complaints are "You Problems".
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Old 02-23-2021, 05:48 PM   #1711
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WB Execs didn't want to admit that Joss Whedon's Justice League was a piece of ****.
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Old 02-23-2021, 06:20 PM   #1712
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I agree that the current motive Bruce to bring Clark back is thin, but I still don't like the Lois idea. It also makes Lois look like a piece of bait without any agency. Again, it's all in execution, but the idea is a hard sell.
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Old 02-23-2021, 07:10 PM   #1713
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To you it is, I guess.

Conversely, I can totally and very, very easily envision a scenario where she and Bruce end up spending time together in the wake of Clark's death - Bruce would invariably want to reach out to her out of a sense of guilt and obligation, if nothing else - and over time their casual meetings for coffee and supportive chitchat could easily blossom into something else. It happens all the time, I've literally seen it happen with people I know.

A common thing I see with people's inability to accept certain concepts or ideas in Zack's movies, is that they get hung up on characters behaving as "characters" and following a script. Whereas the characters Zack writes are written to think, act, and behave as actual human beings, complete with all the complications that comes with that. They're not static archetypes, and I think that's what trips people up sometimes. "That's not the way 'Lois Lane' would behave!" Maybe, maybe not, but it IS the way an actual human being would or could behave, and it doesn't in any way make them "bad people". Just human.

I mean, in the Whedon cut, Lois tells Clark upon his return that "You'd be ashamed of me" for how she behaved in the wake of his death. It's left to the imagination, but you can "imagine" quite a bit. Perhaps she developed a drinking or drug problem and had to go to rehab. Perhaps she gave up on herself and spent weeks or months never getting out of bed. These are common ways people cope with grief, and while we're never told explicitly that's how she coped, you can imagine or infer any or none of those things. So the storyline we got in the "official" movie already "robbed her of any agency", because she didn't actually do anything proactive or productive that we know of after Clark died. She either did nothing but mope for a year, OR she was self-destructive (again, we don't know, but based on her own words it's either One or The Other). So again, "no agency".

And would any of those things, hypothetically speaking, be any "better" than the idea of her accidentally catching feelings for someone who came to her as a friend in a time of crisis and emotional need? I'd argue no. I'd actually argue that her and Bruce having a friendship that turns into something more is one of the more "wholesome", healthy, and acceptable scenarios that could have potentially happened to Lois during that time period. It's honestly one of the "better" options by a mile.

You have to remember that at that point in the hypothetical storyline, neither Lois nor Bruce had any idea that Clark could or would come back, and that both of them would simply be trying to move on with their lives. We don't know how it specifically would have been written, but from Zack's explanation it comes across as sincere, and not like either character just trying to get into the others' pants or her going after Bruce for his money or anything; instead, if we take his explanation at face value, it would have been two grieving people coming together in their shared grief and guilt over Clark's death, and a deeper connection resulting from that.

That totally makes sense. That's very real, and it happens in real life every day. And given that we know for a fact that their "relationship" would have been broken off immediately once Clark was back in the picture, I can't see any way where anyone comes out of it looking any worse.

As I said earlier, it was a bit of a thinker when I read the headline, but the more I think about the storyline it only starts to make more sense, not less. It would have enriched the storyline for both characters and made each of them more human. Bruce gets an arc that isn't just "Let's bring back my dead buddy", and Lois gets an arc that isn't just "I miss my dead fiancee." They both would have had more to actually DO instead of just be sad/regretful; I mean let's face it, Lois's entire "journey" in JL was "I'm sad... and now I'm relieved! Aaaand now I'm not in the movie at all anymore for the entire third act."

I mean, it is what it is and it never got off the ground. But I kinda think some people are projecting a little bit and looking at the storyline in a way that makes it more salacious than it was ever meant to be presented.
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Old 02-23-2021, 10:29 PM   #1714
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I don't like the idea that Bruce can bring back Clark, but he just knows that Lois will leave him for the man she truly loves if he does. It's an awkward conflict to me.
I'm not saying the idea can't work, but I don't like it conceptually. It is what it is.

And again, it just seems especially tiresome after we just had a conflict between Bruce and Clark solved.
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Old 02-27-2021, 03:54 PM   #1715
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The Snyder Cut will end on a cliffhanger

https://www.ign.com/articles/justice...fhanger-ending
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Old 02-27-2021, 04:03 PM   #1716
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The Snyder Cut will end on a cliffhanger

https://www.ign.com/articles/justice...fhanger-ending
If it's the "Green Lantern arrives to tell everybody Darkseid is coming", I'm okay with that.

But if it's a genuine "oh no turn in next week to find out how Batman and Wonder Woman free a possessed Superman!" type cliffhanger, I'll be extremely irritated without some sort of follow-up. And THAT seems like a lost cause at this point, especially with rumors of a black Superman reboot on the horizon...
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Old 02-27-2021, 05:40 PM   #1717
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I can't even...

But why? Does he expect it to be so successful that DC / WB gonna order a sequel to his vision of Justice League?
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Old 02-27-2021, 05:53 PM   #1718
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No, I think it's because it really was always supposed to be multiple movies and there simply wasn't enough time, money, or resources to put everything from JL2 and JL3 into this One Thing and have this One Thing still make sense or be true to what it was originally shot as.

He'd have to have re-written and re-shot way too much for this one to be closed off as a standalone. Just like MoS and BvS were specifically written and shot to lead into Justice League 1, Justice League 1 was specifically written and shot to be the first part of a trilogy. Some time ago it was explained that the original plan at the time this movie was shot, was for JL 2 to be predominantly taking place in the "Knightmare" timeline, and JL 3 was going to be the full-blown Darkseid Invasion, and the League trying to stop the Knightmare Timeline once and for all from happening.

There's just no way that ALL of that plot could have been condensed into a movie they already shot 95% of the footage for. He'd have to have redone the entire movie from scratch, and that was never in the cards. Since it was written and shot to end on a cliffhanger, they had no reasonable way of changing that by this point. Not with so many things left open-ended on purpose.

It wasn't written or shot as a stand-alone, it was written or shot as "Part 1 of 3", and the movie they shot is the movie they're left with trying to finish. That's all it is.

As for there ever being more, Zack himself has said he really doesn't think that's in the cards, but that if he's ever asked - and to be clear, he doesn't think he will be - that he'd be willing to have a conversation about it. But that no, he does not expect that to happen.
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Old 02-27-2021, 06:55 PM   #1719
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He definitely wants to do more, but isn't coming out right and blasting it. You can def tell he wants to from recent interviews.

Not to say that's why it ends on a cliffhanger - Leo pointed out the reason for that - but I don't think he is as incentivized to nip/tuck an ending as he could be.

I'm really excited to see this, despite some trepidation. I have a feeling it'll be my least favorite of his trilogy, but at over 4 hours, I know there is going to be some stuff I like.

Y'know, I followed these movies pretty closely but I could have sworn Justice League was intended to be a two-parter, until hearing Zack say three this week.
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Old 02-27-2021, 07:36 PM   #1720
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I mean, "want"? Yeah sure, absolutely, I bet that if he had the same freedom he had on MoS and BvS then he'd be all over another DC project. But if it was the constant "babysitting" that took place on Justice League and the constant butting of heads with WB, then probably not. What he wants and what is likely are two very different things, and I'm sure he understands that.

He'd come back if it were on his terms, and he knows he's not in any position to dictate those terms, and that offer probably isn't coming. If he comes out and says, "Hell yeah, I'd love to do more!" then it invites a whole lot of rumor and speculation about something that isn't very realistic. So I can't blame him at all for hedging his bets on the subject and simply saying, "I'd be willing to have that conversation."

As for JL being three vs. two movies, I've always heard different things at different times. It's not unreasonable to expect or believe that he had pitched and outlined a JL trilogy early on, but that he and WB saw no point in publicly talking about things that far in advance, especially when the first movie's production wasn't going all so well. It could have been, they originally agreed on three but figured "Let's not give away the store, let's keep people focused on the first one for now." And then when production became troubled, perhaps WB took one of those prospective movies away and told him to condense JL2 and 3 into one story, and then after that we know what happened - WB took away any sequels altogether and finagled JL into a standalone movie by chopping out 3/4s of the plot.

That's what makes the most sense to me, based on my own suppositions after following of the production, along with things we know for a fact to be true.
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