Your views on the co-creators - Page 2

*CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy* · 05-26-2015, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

I always preferred Ryan Brown since he created Rat King and Leatherhead not to mention his other media contributions. Do not forget Dan Berger still works part-time for Peter thus having the longest association with Mirage post-TMNT.

Name two more and we can have a Mirage Magnificent Seven.

Oh, Steve Murphy.

I can't think of anything he's ever done for TMNT that I actually LIKE, but he does deserve blame--I mean, credit.

So one more?

*Powder* · 05-26-2015, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Oh, Steve Murphy.

I can't think of anything he's ever done for TMNT that I actually LIKE, but he does deserve blame--I mean, credit.

So one more?

You don't like the Archie series or his early Mirage work like Sons Of The Silent Age? I think the dude's a legend. Preachy at times, but otherwise top notch.

*Mayhem* · 05-26-2015, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

So one more?

Dooney, surely?

*Cipher* · 05-26-2015, 06:35 PM

"Sons of the Silent Age" is a top five of all time. Murphy had certain goals with his early years on a kids' book, which is fair, but he knew what to do with the characters and their world to present poignant stories as well.

Did he also do "Dreams of Stone"? That's pretty solid too. He also co-wrote, or perhaps scripted entirely, the first issue of "Soul's Winter" as well, which is another top-fiver.

Also, I could have sworn Jim Lawson created Rat King. Is that wrong? Didn't he write Tales #4?

More on-topic: Of the two co-creators, I do slightly prefer Laird's vision, if for no other reason than he was willing to treat the series a serious, though still playful, avenue for story-telling. But the reason I really love the series owes itself to a handful of other creators, Lawson and Murphy very prominently among them.

*Powder* · 05-26-2015, 06:51 PM

Yes, Rat King is Lawson's creation.

*CyberCubed* · 05-26-2015, 07:02 PM

Its kind of ironic PL doesn't like a lot of mutants, but at the same time includes lots of aliens, creatures and monsters and other sci-fi elements for the Turtles to face instead.

After a while, what's the difference?

*CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy* · 05-26-2015, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powder

You don't like the Archie series or his early Mirage work like Sons Of The Silent Age? I think the dude's a legend. Preachy at times, but otherwise top notch.

I'm not a fan of the Archie series but I forgot Murphy did "Sons of the Silent Age." That was an incredible story... I take it back.

**Jester** · 05-26-2015, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cylonsklingonsdaleksohmy

i'm not a fan of the archie series

whaa!!!???

*CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy* · 05-26-2015, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester

whaa!!!???

Sorry. The Fred Wolf cartoon and the offshoot TMNTA (yes, very far removed eventually) just hold no interest or appeal for me. I grew up with the cartoon and can't go back.

And when it's a choice of buying one TMNT comic, one with a decapitated giant cow head on it and one with a bloodsoaked Shredder holding Raphael's bandanna, seriously, how do you not go with Image over Archie?

*Powder* · 05-26-2015, 08:18 PM

Did you read the later half of the Archie books? They're tonally more like the 4kids turtles than the OT at that point. Once Chris Allan comes on board the book's a lot more serious/mature.

*CyberCubed* · 05-26-2015, 08:22 PM

Most of the best episodes of the original cartoon are still some of the most entertaining episodes of TMNT of all time.

**Jester** · 05-26-2015, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powder

Did you read the later half of the Archie books? They're tonally more like the 4kids turtles than the OT at that point. Once Chris Allan comes on board the book's a lot more serious/mature.

Which is where my undying love comes in. Though Mitchroney's style does have a certain charm.

*Jephael* · 05-26-2015, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

I'm not a fan of the Archie series

*Leo656* · 05-26-2015, 09:04 PM

I gotta say the Archie series is definitely among my favorite incarnations. Right up with the first movie and 2K3. For what it's worth, it was the Archie book that kept me a fan through the years there wasn't any new TMNT media. Although the book had also been cancelled by then, I re-read those issues a lot in the years before 2K3. I didn't start picking up Mirage until around 2001, nobody around here ever really carried it, so my emotional attachment to that book is really rather minimal by comparison.

*pennydreadful* · 05-26-2015, 10:22 PM

TMNT Archie comics were the first TMNT comics I ever owned, so I've got a big mushy soft spot for 'em. I thought they were fun and had a lot of cool stuff - admittedly some really corny stuff too, but then again, look at Volume 4... can't win 'em all, y'know?

*Cipher* · 05-27-2015, 01:18 AM

Adventures is cool, but I'm not going to pick a bone with anybody for not enjoying it. Even its later issues are more enjoyable in a "This is creative and it's amazing you got away with it considering the audience" kind of way than anything else. It's the best take on the original Playmates-driven aesthetic, but ... yeah. A lot of its appeal rides on putting it in context.

#62 is pretty stellar, though. I'd have had no problem with the book ending on that issue.

Yabuturtle · 05-27-2015, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

I was shocked when Peter told me to my face he resented TMNT for being such a big thing especially into the defining cartoon that shapes my and so many millions of views of the TMNT and why we love it so. The only thing he liked out of what made the turtles into a household name that he liked was the Technodrome and Baxter Stockman turned into a mutant fly. Why withhold all the comics that did not debut in the black and white comic and why not incorporate elements into the characters as they are in the comics I questioned for years. He just has a strict view of wanting to see his product a certain way and it got far away from his ability to do so. His wanting to remove TMNT from his lives is understandable and he has a genuine love for his creation so I respect that.

Kevin, met him as well and I like his shinier more people person personality. He is more open and glad his product makes us happy and change it to the way people want to see it which draws me more to him than Peter. Would he approve of anything? No, if it has potential of keeping his product with life which means it could excite fans AND make him a buck yes I can see that easily.

It's funny as people probably wouldn't even know him or the comic he helped create without the cartoon. The cartoon MADE the Turtles even if it did change his ideas. I personally wouldn't care as long as people enjoyed something I helped create. I mean it's also rather naïve to assume one's product would stay the same and not be changed. Look how many incarnations Marvel and DC characters have gone through? Did he really think the Turtles would stay the same all these years? Doesn't matter really, we've got all sorts of incarnations of Turtles to look at. That's why I don't think any series is really a betrayal of the original, it's just another way of telling the story, no more different than the different incarnations of "A Christmas Carol".

*Leo656* · 05-27-2015, 09:02 PM

Some people are more creative-minded than commercial-minded. It's clear now in retrospect that Kevin was the "capitalist" and Pete was the "artist".

I see both sides of it. And I will say that anyone who gets involved in a commercial endeavor should expect certain things upfront. On the other hand, me personally, if I put a lot of work into creating a character or story, and then other people "messed with" it, I'd be furious, regardless of money. It's no longer "mine", at that point, it's been stolen and vandalized. And especially if there were aspects of the story or a particular character that were deeply personal, for one reason or another... nobody else would be able to execute it "correctly", because the personal aspect of it would be gone, the "Why" would be gone. And someone could justify it by saying, "No, it's just a new *version* of your character", to which I'd reply, "No, you're absolutely wrong, it's not the same character/story AT ALL because there were specific reasons I had for doing this, that, or the other, and now, it's broken, because the people who changed it didn't understand WHY certain things were important, and arrogantly pasted *their* nonsense on top of what I had done as if it wouldn't matter. So no, it's a completely different story/character now." I'd be pissed, honestly.

But yeah, that's the kind of thing a person needs to decide before they take the check. I agree. I *don't* agree that making arbitrary changes for the sheer "Why Not?" of it is harmless. Some people don't care how their art is represented and others really, really do. I've always created art for personal reasons, so while I wouldn't be opposed to getting paid for writing something, I'd never want anyone else to screw with what I'd done. Everyone's different. But they should be respected regardless of what side they fall on; it's their work.

*CyberCubed* · 05-27-2015, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cipher

Adventures is cool, but I'm not going to pick a bone with anybody for not enjoying it. Even its later issues are more enjoyable in a "This is creative and it's amazing you got away with it considering the audience" kind of way than anything else. It's the best take on the original Playmates-driven aesthetic, but ... yeah. A lot of its appeal rides on putting it in context.

#62 is pretty stellar, though. I'd have had no problem with the book ending on that issue.

Adventures actually felt like it was written for adults instead of kids after the half-way point. There's very little difference between late Archie and IDW for example in terms of tone or violence.

*Cipher* · 05-28-2015, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Adventures actually felt like it was written for adults instead of kids after the half-way point. There's very little difference between late Archie and IDW for example in terms of tone or violence.

Later half? I think you need to get to the Dreamland arc before that happens, and that's just about the end of the game.

Even then, it's a lot more embracing of corny solutions, etc. than IDW is, because it's written for a less critical audience.

There are great ideas there and it's a lot of fun if you know what you're getting into, but it needs the caveat that it's a kids' book.

05-26-2015, 06:51 PM	#25
Powder So tired of this place Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Shell Ri La Posts: 26,809	Yes, Rat King is Lawson's creation. __________________ I'm convinced that none of you have ever experienced joy

05-26-2015, 08:18 PM	#30
Powder So tired of this place Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Shell Ri La Posts: 26,809	Did you read the later half of the Archie books? They're tonally more like the 4kids turtles than the OT at that point. Once Chris Allan comes on board the book's a lot more serious/mature. __________________ I'm convinced that none of you have ever experienced joy

05-26-2015, 09:04 PM	#34
Leo656 The Franchise Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,696	I gotta say the Archie series is definitely among my favorite incarnations. Right up with the first movie and 2K3. For what it's worth, it was the Archie book that kept me a fan through the years there wasn't any new TMNT media. Although the book had also been cancelled by then, I re-read those issues a lot in the years before 2K3. I didn't start picking up Mirage until around 2001, nobody around here ever really carried it, so my emotional attachment to that book is really rather minimal by comparison. __________________ "I left some words quite far from here to be a short reminder... I laid them out in stone, in case they need to last forever..." "But hey... I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know." nWo Tech: The Official Thread Poison of the Technodrome Forums https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxr...awnHgDz1ceDcfA https://theroxxshow.blogspot.com/

05-26-2015, 10:22 PM	#35
pennydreadful trash Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Australia Posts: 4,546	TMNT Archie comics were the first TMNT comics I ever owned, so I've got a big mushy soft spot for 'em. I thought they were fun and had a lot of cool stuff - admittedly some really corny stuff too, but then again, look at Volume 4... can't win 'em all, y'know? __________________ Creator of the Technodrome After Dark Discussion Group. PM for an invite (must be over 18 - no exceptions).

05-27-2015, 09:02 PM	#38
Leo656 The Franchise Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,696	Some people are more creative-minded than commercial-minded. It's clear now in retrospect that Kevin was the "capitalist" and Pete was the "artist". I see both sides of it. And I will say that anyone who gets involved in a commercial endeavor should expect certain things upfront. On the other hand, me personally, if I put a lot of work into creating a character or story, and then other people "messed with" it, I'd be furious, regardless of money. It's no longer "mine", at that point, it's been stolen and vandalized. And especially if there were aspects of the story or a particular character that were deeply personal, for one reason or another... nobody else would be able to execute it "correctly", because the personal aspect of it would be gone, the "Why" would be gone. And someone could justify it by saying, "No, it's just a new version of your character", to which I'd reply, "No, you're absolutely wrong, it's not the same character/story AT ALL because there were specific reasons I had for doing this, that, or the other, and now, it's broken, because the people who changed it didn't understand WHY certain things were important, and arrogantly pasted their nonsense on top of what I had done as if it wouldn't matter. So no, it's a completely different story/character now." I'd be pissed, honestly. But yeah, that's the kind of thing a person needs to decide before they take the check. I agree. I don't agree that making arbitrary changes for the sheer "Why Not?" of it is harmless. Some people don't care how their art is represented and others really, really do. I've always created art for personal reasons, so while I wouldn't be opposed to getting paid for writing something, I'd never want anyone else to screw with what I'd done. Everyone's different. But they should be respected regardless of what side they fall on; it's their work. __________________ "I left some words quite far from here to be a short reminder... I laid them out in stone, in case they need to last forever..." "But hey... I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know." nWo Tech: The Official Thread Poison of the Technodrome Forums https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxr...awnHgDz1ceDcfA https://theroxxshow.blogspot.com/

05-26-2015, 06:35 PM	#24
Cipher Foot Elite Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 3,454	"Sons of the Silent Age" is a top five of all time. Murphy had certain goals with his early years on a kids' book, which is fair, but he knew what to do with the characters and their world to present poignant stories as well. Did he also do "Dreams of Stone"? That's pretty solid too. He also co-wrote, or perhaps scripted entirely, the first issue of "Soul's Winter" as well, which is another top-fiver. Also, I could have sworn Jim Lawson created Rat King. Is that wrong? Didn't he write Tales #4? More on-topic: Of the two co-creators, I do slightly prefer Laird's vision, if for no other reason than he was willing to treat the series a serious, though still playful, avenue for story-telling. But the reason I really love the series owes itself to a handful of other creators, Lawson and Murphy very prominently among them.

05-26-2015, 07:02 PM	#26
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 41,057	Its kind of ironic PL doesn't like a lot of mutants, but at the same time includes lots of aliens, creatures and monsters and other sci-fi elements for the Turtles to face instead. After a while, what's the difference?

05-26-2015, 08:22 PM	#31
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 41,057	Most of the best episodes of the original cartoon are still some of the most entertaining episodes of TMNT of all time.

05-27-2015, 01:18 AM	#36
Cipher Foot Elite Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 3,454	Adventures is cool, but I'm not going to pick a bone with anybody for not enjoying it. Even its later issues are more enjoyable in a "This is creative and it's amazing you got away with it considering the audience" kind of way than anything else. It's the best take on the original Playmates-driven aesthetic, but ... yeah. A lot of its appeal rides on putting it in context. #62 is pretty stellar, though. I'd have had no problem with the book ending on that issue.