How do you feel about the origins of Splinter in the FW series?

[Prowler]

You know how Splinter and Hamato Yoshi were the same person in the FW series? And then Hamato Yoshi turned into a rat due to coming in contact with the mutagen while the Turtles... well you know that part.

Splinter as Hamato Yoshi was the leader of the Foot Clan, and Oroku Saki was the student that screwed him over. Now obviously the way Yoshi got screwed was pretty stupid and hard to believe. Those three guys didn't see the knife and assumed Yoshi wanted to kill the old guy. And for whatever reason Splinter ran away to USA, NYC of all places which is on the East Coast, therefore VERY FAR from Japan(how the hell did he even end up there if he was poor/broke?!). But anyway, Splinter was the leader of the Foot Clan. Shredder was his student. Then he betrayed him, turned the Clan into a criminal organisation in Japan and then also moved to USA to look for Yoshi and kill him... but ended up turning him into a rat and mutating the 4 Turtles into what they've become. The irony of this is stunning.

Give FW all the flack you want, but you cant' really say it handled the Splinter and Turtle origins that bad. Splinter and Hamato Yoshi being the same person is more realistic and believable than a pet rat learning martial arts from watching his master train and then randomly finding a book about Renaissance art and name the Turtles after 4 Italian artists. In the FW series Yoshi was a man into art. He didn't just find a book lying in the sewers about it. He stated those were his favourite artists.

Now, after knowing about Mirage and watching the 2k3 series I too stopped viewing the FW origin as a legitimate one and pretty much see Splinter having been Yoshi's pet rat as the canon origin, but I can't say his origin was handled poorly in the FW series.

As for Shredder, his origin also fit the FW series. It's not as personal as Oroku Saki killing Yoshi, but since Yoshi and Splinter were the same people in the FW series, that'd not have worked for obvious reasons. Shredder stabbing Splinter in the back and taking over the Foot Clan was rather believable tbh. It's still a personal issue between both men, even though Splinter isn't exactly looking for vengeance in this cartoon.

So yeah, thoughts?

[PApagreg]

I prefer human to rat origin, something about a rat learning ninjutsu from watching his owner is a concept that I have trouble swallowing even in a very bizarre series which is TMNT.

[newfan]

I like Splinter being Yoshi, to me it makes a stronger story for the rivalry between him and Shredder and also (to me) makes them seem more equal opponents. Also the turltes are trained by Yoshi himself. However I know from reading other threads that others have a different view.

Above was slightly edited.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by newfan

hmmm I feel a possible argument coming on.....

I like Splinter being Yoshi, to me it makes a stronger story for the rivalry between him and Shredder and also (to me) makes him seem more equal opponent. However I know from reading other threads that others don't like it.

Tbh a pet rat seeing his beloved owner being murdered is quite sad and makes it sweeter for Splinter and the Turtles to kick Shredder's metal ass. Also, you could argue that Splinter being an animal all along makes him living with Turtles and considering them his sons more believable. I like the idea of April being the very first human being that the Turtles become friends with and accept as family.

[IndigoErth]

I'm "eh" on the former Foot involvement, but Yoshi and Splinter being the same person is my preferred origin. Just fits more natural to me that he'd already be a skilled martial artist, not just learned via by mimicry, and bring a human lifestyle and knowledge with him in the way that he'd raise the Turtles and educate them.

[plastroncafe]

I'm not a huge fan of the Japanese man turning into a rodent origin story.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

I'm not a huge fan of the Japanese man turning into a rodent origin story.

You're so predictable.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

You're so predictable.

Yeah I don't get what plastron is implying here. Ok, a Japanese man turns into a rat... but it's not like his character is handled poorly. Nor Shredder's for that matter. Splinter is taken seriously and Shredder isn't given a goofy comical accent.

The FW series had its own issues, but never struck me as racist or culturally insensitive. In fact, it was the first ever cartoon I've seen with Japanese elements in it, which was kinda interesting considering the FW series predates the anime boom in USA and the West as a whole. I'd even credit the FW series as planting the seeds of my interest for Japanese and East Asian cultures in general. It definitely warmed me up to them. Now, ofc I know real ninjas weren't like the Turtles and such, but it's not like Iv'e ever seen the FW series as a guide for Japanese culture and history, anyway.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

I'm not a huge fan of the Japanese man turning into a rodent origin story.

The character Yuki Sohma from the anime fruits basket turns into a rat. There are anime, manga, and parts of Japanese folklore where Japanese men turn into Nezumi and rat creatures. And being identified as a rat is not a bad or insulting thing for Japanese people, because of the animal's sacred and honored place on the Chinese zodiac. The Japanese view the rat as a quick, cunning, and intelligent animal. And I don't think a few western propaganda pieces from World War II should override an entire culture's centuries long history of identifying clever or cunning individuals in that culture as an intelligent and respected animal.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

The character Yuki Sohma from the anime fruits basket turns into a rat. There are anime, manga, and parts of Japanese folklore where Japanese men turn into Nezumi and rat creatures. And being identified as a rat is not a bad or insulting thing for Japanese people, because of the animal's sacred and honored place on the Chinese zodiac. The Japanese view the rat as a quick, cunning, and intelligent animal. And I don't think a few western propaganda pieces from World War II should override an entire culture's centuries long history of identifying clever or cunning individuals in that culture as an intelligent and respected animal.

Okay. I'm glad you see it that way.
I don't share that opinion.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by neatoman

I don't know. The whole thing just kind of feels like it was originally copied from the comic, but then someone didn't think an origin that relied on three people getting murdered was OK for kids, so it was just sloppily altered.

I mean the basic beats of the comic origin goes like this:

1. Yoshi flees Japan after he murders Nagi.
2. Shen and Yoshi are murdered by Saki, so Splinter (the rat) goes down the sewer.
3. Splinter mutates by touching the ooze covered turtles, which turns all of them into humanoids.

And in the FW show it goes like this:

1. Yoshi flees Japan after he's accused of a murder attempt.
2. He (an educated human being) goes down the sewer.
3. Yoshi mutates by touching the ooze covered turtles, which results in them mutating into identical humanoids while he becomes a rat.

You can sort of tell by how sloppy it is, it was probably going to be the original origin before a re-write.

Edit: And I've said this before, trying to explain how the same localised incident causes four identical transformations and one extremely different one is just jumping through pointless hoops.

But we know that the turtles were not the only creatures he touched. It flat out states that he was LIVING WITH rats as pets and that they were the last animal he had contact with when he touched the mutagen. (And it even shows him stepping in it BEFORE HE EVER TOUCHES THE TURTLES crawling in it.) So it's not sloppy- they explained veey clearly why he ended up a rat.

Originally Posted by newfan

I assumed with 2012 (prior to loan rat and cubs ep) that he only went to the sewers after being mutated, I preferred that. I suppose though with being disgraced and more so maybe in hiding may be why he was in the sewers before then in FW.

He was indeed in hiding. Saki had basically framed him for trying to kill a GRANDMASTER. Think about that for a moment. In ninja clans that amounts to not just exile but most likely a death sentance as well. He went into hiding in a place that he hoped would be safe from retribution by the clan. Plus being literally penniless did not help. No resources and no friends- he was royally screwed and he knew it.

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

I'm not a huge fan of the FW origin, it's seem rather strange that Yoshi is that easily defeated and thrown out of the clan when he's the rightful inheritor of it knowing the super secret Three-Stooges manouver that's proof of being the next in line for being Head of the Clan.


https://po394.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/jap-trap.jpg

That would have ended the moment he was exiled from the clan though. Yes he had proof of Shredder's plot but unless someone was willing to listen to his side (obviously they were not) then it did not matter that he was the rightful leader. Saki made sure he was thoroughly ousted. And then he added insult to injury by trying to kill him. (Most likely because he realized that leaving him alive might get his plot discovered eventually.)

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

The character Yuki Sohma from the anime fruits basket turns into a rat. There are anime, manga, and parts of Japanese folklore where Japanese men turn into Nezumi and rat creatures. And being identified as a rat is not a bad or insulting thing for Japanese people, because of the animal's sacred and honored place on the Chinese zodiac. The Japanese view the rat as a quick, cunning, and intelligent animal. And I don't think a few western propaganda pieces from World War II should override an entire culture's centuries long history of identifying clever or cunning individuals in that culture as an intelligent and respected animal.

Exactly. Rats are considered a sacred animal in the Eastern zodiac and folklore much like many other animals. It would only have been truly an insult if he had been turned into a cat, which is often seen as a demon in Japan.

[neatoman]

I don't know. The whole thing just kind of feels like it was originally copied from the comic, but then someone didn't think an origin that relied on three people getting murdered was OK for kids, so it was just sloppily altered.

I mean the basic beats of the comic origin goes like this:

1. Yoshi flees Japan after he murders Nagi.
2. Shen and Yoshi are murdered by Saki, so Splinter (the rat) goes down the sewer.
3. Splinter mutates by touching the ooze covered turtles, which turns all of them into humanoids.

And in the FW show it goes like this:

1. Yoshi flees Japan after he's accused of a murder attempt.
2. He (an educated human being) goes down the sewer.
3. Yoshi mutates by touching the ooze covered turtles, which results in them mutating into identical humanoids while he becomes a rat.

You can sort of tell by how sloppy it is, it was probably going to be the original origin before a re-write.

Edit: And I've said this before, trying to explain how the same localised incident causes four identical transformations and one extremely different one is just jumping through pointless hoops.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by neatoman

I don't know. The whole thing just kind of feels like it was originally copied from the comic, but then someone didn't think an origin that relied on three people getting murdered was OK for kids, so it was just sloppily altered.

I mean the basic beats of the comic origin goes like this:

1. Yoshi flees Japan after he murders Nagi.
2. Shen and Yoshi are murdered by Saki, so Splinter (the rat) goes down the sewer.
3. Splinter mutates by touching the ooze covered turtles, which turns all of them into humanoids.

And in the FW show it goes like this:

1. Yoshi flees Japan after he's accused of a murder attempt.
2. He (an educated human being) goes down the sewer.
3. Yoshi mutates by touching the ooze covered turtles, which results in them mutating into identical humanoids while he becomes a rat.

You can sort of tell by how sloppy it is, it was probably going to be the original origin before a re-write.

I mean, in the 2k3 series, you see Shredder killing Hamato Yoshi. And it's not like the 2k3 series was that violent. I twas still a kids show. I guess that still wasn't acceptable in a children cartoon back in 1988?

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Prowler

I guess that still wasn't acceptable in a children cartoon back in 1988?

I used to think so, but I saw a Superfriends (animated Justice League) episode with flashback scenes where Batman's parents are killed outside the cinema. It wasn't much, just they walked through the alleyway, and then it was told they had been attacked and were gone.

So maybe, they could've had Shredder striking towards Splinter with a samurai sword, then the screen becoming black for some seconds and then just show a grave and Hamato Yoshi's Japanese friends in New York City mourning him.

When the 2003-2009 series aired, times had changed and we saw Hamato Yoshi being tortured.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Prowler

I mean, in the 2k3 series, you see Shredder killing Hamato Yoshi. And it's not like the 2k3 series was that violent. I twas still a kids show. I guess that still wasn't acceptable in a children cartoon back in 1988?

Eh, not really. While it's obvious that's indeed what happens, the audience never technically sees it because the camera doesn't follow the claw for long enough. Hell, Splinter don't even get to see it, he closes his eyes as it happens.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

I used to think so, but I saw a Superfriends (animated Justice League) episode with flashback scenes where Batman's parents are killed outside the cinema. It wasn't much, just they walked through the alleyway, and then it was told they had been attacked and were gone.

So maybe, they could've had Shredder striking towards Splinter with a samurai sword, then the screen becoming black for some seconds and then just show a grave and Hamato Yoshi's Japanese friends in New York City mourning him.

When the 2003-2009 series aired, times had changed and we saw Hamato Yoshi being tortured.

Don't forget Leonardo cutting Shredder's head off. Granted he later picked his head up and walked off and we didn't know he was an Utrom yet... but that scene took balls to animate.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

I'm not a huge fan of the Japanese man turning into a rodent origin story.

Why are pointing out him being Japanese? What are you implying? That it's another one of those examples of a non-white character being treated poorly in the American media or something?

Originally Posted by neatoman

Eh, not really. While it's obvious that's indeed what happens, the audience never technically sees it because the camera doesn't follow the claw for long enough. Hell, Splinter don't even get to see it, he closes his eyes as it happens.

Well obviously you don't see him bleeding to death or getting his cut throat... but it's not like it was a very tame scene overall.

I wonder why it was acceptable for 2003 but not for 1988. Tbh the 2k3 series got away with some risky stuff such as Leonardo "cutting" Shredder's head off and ofc the episode SAINW.

[Candy Kappa]

I'm not a huge fan of the FW origin, it's seem rather strange that Yoshi is that easily defeated and thrown out of the clan when he's the rightful inheritor of it knowing the super secret Three-Stooges manouver that's proof of being the next in line for being Head of the Clan.

Originally Posted by Prowler

Why are pointing out him being Japanese? What are you implying? That it's another one of those examples of a non-white character being treated poorly in the American media or something?

[newfan]

He (an educated human being) goes down the sewer.

I assumed with 2012 (prior to loan rat and cubs ep) that he only went to the sewers after being mutated, I preferred that. I suppose though with being disgraced and more so maybe in hiding may be why he was in the sewers before then in FW.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

One thing I liked about FW Splinter was that he didn't try and get revenge on the Shredder unless he happened to be conquering the world and the turtles weren't able to defeat him by themselves.

He was a pretty chill dude, content with his life as a Mutant Rat.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

One thing I liked about FW Splinter was that he didn't try and get revenge on the Shredder unless he happened to be conquering the world and the turtles weren't able to defeat him by themselves.

He was a pretty chill dude, content with his life as a Mutant Rat.

Weirdly enough, and even when he was offered the chance to go back to being human, he was reluctant to do so, because of all the sensory and reflex advantages he had as a mutant. And when the mutagen cure wore off and he became a mutant rat again, he didn't seem too bothered.