Season 5 Discussion Thread

[Zog The Magnificent]

Here's a revised viewing order for season 5. I know it doesn't follow the production order, but I think the season watches a lot better in this order. It also allows Mutant Apocalypse to be an alternate future if you found it too depressing.

When Worlds Collide Part 1
When Worlds Collide Part 2
Yojimbo
Osokoshi no Tabi
Kagayaki Kintaro!
The Curse of Savanti Romero
The Crypt of Dracula
The Frankenstein Experiment
Monsters Among Us
Raphael: Mutant Apocalypse
Scroll of the Demodragon
The Forgotten Swordsman
Heart of Evil
End Times
Wanted: Bebop and Rocksteady
The Foot walks Again
The Big Blowout
Lone Rat and Cubs

Let me know what you think!

[Kit31]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

Here's a revised viewing order for season 5. I know it doesn't follow the production order, but I think the season watches a lot better in this order. It also allows Mutant Apocalypse to be an alternate future if you found it too depressing.

When Worlds Collide Part 1
When Worlds Collide Part 2
Yojimbo
Osokoshi no Tabi
Kagayaki Kintaro!
The Curse of Savanti Romero
The Crypt of Dracula
The Frankenstein Experiment
Monsters Among Us
Raphael: Mutant Apocalypse
Scroll of the Demodragon
The Forgotten Swordsman
Heart of Evil
End Times
Wanted: Bebop and Rocksteady
The Foot walks Again
The Big Blowout
Lone Rat and Cubs

Let me know what you think!

I still think the Kavaxas arc should be the first arc in the season.

Originally Posted by Vicky82

For anyone who hasn't seen the last 2 episodes of the Monster arc yet

Monsters Among Us is airing on October 11th, not November 5th.

http://tvschedule.zap2it.com/tv/tale...aid=tvschedule

Ahhhhh, this makes a LOT more sense. So glad they changed it.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Kit31

I still think the Kavaxas arc should be the first arc in the season.

It has to be. Leo breaks his regular swords on Kavaxas' face in the first episode and proceeds to use the Hamato swords the rest of the season. Then Lone Rat and Cubs makes narrative sense right after End Times, since everyone got to say their final goodbyes to Splinter. Anywhere else is just random.

There's very little continuity between anything else, but I see nothing wrong with the production order other than some people didn't like Mutant Apocalypse. But if that's the case, just don't watch it. Or pretend it's an alternate future.

You can't deny it's meant to be watched last. It's 50 years in the future and ends with one more shot of the family together, followed by an homage to the inside cover of Eastman and Laird's TMNT #1:



Perfect bookend.

[asfaloth12]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

Here's a revised viewing order for season 5. I know it doesn't follow the production order, but I think the season watches a lot better in this order. It also allows Mutant Apocalypse to be an alternate future if you found it too depressing.

Not a bad order. Yeah, for me (and many others that I've talked to), the Mutant Apocalypse works much better as an alternate reality/future.
I love the idea of finishing with the Crossover and Lone Rat and Cubs (since I have that DVD).

Rant / strong negative opinion about the Apocalpyse Arc under spoiler cut. ( If you can't handle criticism of the arc, please move along):

Spoiler:

Sure, it's depressing and it frankly made everything that came before it meaningless if taken as the official ending. However, it also contradicts the canon continuity and is riddled with plot holes. And let's not forget the piss-poor treatment of April and Karai, as well as Mona Lisa (basically, they disposed of the strong female characters, which sends a rather unfortunate message). And they totally ignored Renet (though, admittedly, that would make sense in an AU). Even as an AU, it's still flawed. At times, I think it may actually work better as a dream/vision. Or, as somebody else jokingly suggested, maybe Raph wrote a self-insert Mad Max fanfic.
Sure people want a happier finale that actually fits with the whole spirit of the show. But, even more than that, they want a finale that's actually good. A lot of us don't feel that it was very good. Ciro's intentions don't really matter to me, and they shouldn't. I can think for myself, and realize that certain things don't add up. Nick actually did the right thing this time by treating it as non-canon and making the crossover the finale (though I'm confused as to why they greenlit the story in the first place, if they didn't like it). It doesn't fit as the conclusion to the canon storyline.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by asfaloth12

Sure, it's depressing and it frankly made everything that came before it meaningless if taken as the official ending.

Why are folks so up their own asses about happy endings? Nobody's entitled to one. Life's hard, & sometimes the door hits you on the way out. Doesn't mean you didn't have fun along the way.

& frankly I think it's pathetic that some of you people want to re-write history because it didn't go the way you'd like it to.

[ToTheNines]

It was definitely an almost non sequitur way to end the series. But it felt very Mirage in that repect. I like that avant-garde style of story telling where sh*t just happens and there's no reason why. Although they did end up living happily ever after, so it wasn't that morbid.

[Zog The Magnificent]

I actually didn't notice that Leonardo had different swords for the entire season. Regardless, I still feel like the Kavaxas arc should be near the end, to give some time after Shredder's death before a plot centered around resurrecting him. Since the stakes were the highest, the villain was the most dangerous, it involved everyone, and it definitively ended the last main plot of the show, I really feel it works better near the finale. Lone Rat and Cubs follows as an excellent coda and bookend to this show, bringing the whole story full circle. Heck, the only reason I put the Bebop and Rocksteady arc in between the two was because it was the only arc that directly referenced and dealt with the aftermath of the Kavaxas arc. And it does work pretty well as an action packed clean-up story.
As to the Mutant Apocalypse arc, I don't object to a bleak or bittersweet ending, as long as it's satisfying in a way or it fits. With Mirage, it was bleak, but it was built up to, and it ultimately fit with Mirage's main message: "Life, at best, is bittersweet." With the Nick show, however, the bleak ending comes out of nowhere extremely suddenly, and effectively renders the whole show a shaggy dog story. It's a great episode and I did enjoy it, and I mean no disrespect to Ciro Nieli, but as an ending it just isn't satisfying. It leaves out a bunch of characters and it's just plain bleak and antithetical to the tone of the show. That's why I think Lone Rat and Cubs works better, ending on the turtles stepping into the beginning of their adventures. (Though you are right, it is intended to be watched last. I actually did like the final image the show ended on.) Thanks for your thoughts!

[newfan]

There are going to be mixed opinions, we're all fans of this show and are allowed our feelings on the end. Yes, bad things happen and in real life and there aren't always happy endings, some see the end as bold and in-line with the comics, it's the writers intended end to the tales and they are happy with this. I envy the people who feel this way

On the other hand, we are not wrong to expect a happy/happier ending for a show (especially a kids show) where the characters aren't killed off and one of the heros permanently mutated into a monster.
God even True Blood got a happy ending!


As for what we consider an ending, had it been a running series it would be the end and that would be it. We were told that season 4 was the end of the story the writers wanted to tell and that this was a fun season of tales. Then we get Nick choosing a different finale.

We have what we have, the apocalypse arc was the writers intended last arc for season 5, Nick want to order it differently and people can go with that if they want... or of course take the end of the running series as cannon.

[Kit31]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

I actually didn't notice that Leonardo had different swords for the entire season. Regardless, I still feel like the Kavaxas arc should be near the end, to give some time after Shredder's death before a plot centered around resurrecting him. Since the stakes were the highest, the villain was the most dangerous, it involved everyone, and it definitively ended the last main plot of the show, I really feel it works better near the finale. Lone Rat and Cubs follows as an excellent coda and bookend to this show, bringing the whole story full circle. Heck, the only reason I put the Bebop and Rocksteady arc in between the two was because it was the only arc that directly referenced and dealt with the aftermath of the Kavaxas arc. And it does work pretty well as an action packed clean-up story.
As to the Mutant Apocalypse arc, I don't object to a bleak or bittersweet ending, as long as it's satisfying in a way or it fits. With Mirage, it was bleak, but it was built up to, and it ultimately fit with Mirage's main message: "Life, at best, is bittersweet." With the Nick show, however, the bleak ending comes out of nowhere extremely suddenly, and effectively renders the whole show a shaggy dog story. It's a great episode and I did enjoy it, and I mean no disrespect to Ciro Nieli, but as an ending it just isn't satisfying. It leaves out a bunch of characters and it's just plain bleak and antithetical to the tone of the show. That's why I think Lone Rat and Cubs works better, ending on the turtles stepping into the beginning of their adventures. (Though you are right, it is intended to be watched last. I actually did like the final image the show ended on.) Thanks for your thoughts!

I do understand about wanting to move the Kavaxas arc to later in the season. It would make more sense to spread that storyline out a little more, but as a first-time viewer, it might get too confusing. As for someone watching season 5 again, it could work.

[newfan]

Originally Posted by Kit31

I do understand about wanting to move the Kavaxas arc to later in the season. It would make more sense to spread that storyline out a little more, but as a first-time viewer, it might get too confusing. As for someone watching season 5 again, it could work.

When I first watched that I wondered why they didn't do that as end. They would have needed to make more of Kavaxas taking over the earth but it would have worked as a finale.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

I actually didn't notice that Leonardo had different swords for the entire season. Regardless, I still feel like the Kavaxas arc should be near the end, to give some time after Shredder's death before a plot centered around resurrecting him. Since the stakes were the highest, the villain was the most dangerous, it involved everyone, and it definitively ended the last main plot of the show, I really feel it works better near the finale. Lone Rat and Cubs follows as an excellent coda and bookend to this show, bringing the whole story full circle. Heck, the only reason I put the Bebop and Rocksteady arc in between the two was because it was the only arc that directly referenced and dealt with the aftermath of the Kavaxas arc. And it does work pretty well as an action packed clean-up story.

Yeah, I was initially pretty annoyed that they immediately went for a Shredder resurrection story, but it ended up being so good I didn't care.

Following the timeline, the Kavaxas arc would be several months after Owari, so there is a gap there, but I understand how you feel like the narrative should breathe a little bit.

As to the Mutant Apocalypse arc, I don't object to a bleak or bittersweet ending, as long as it's satisfying in a way or it fits. With Mirage, it was bleak, but it was built up to, and it ultimately fit with Mirage's main message: "Life, at best, is bittersweet." With the Nick show, however, the bleak ending comes out of nowhere extremely suddenly, and effectively renders the whole show a shaggy dog story. It's a great episode and I did enjoy it, and I mean no disrespect to Ciro Nieli, but as an ending it just isn't satisfying. It leaves out a bunch of characters and it's just plain bleak and antithetical to the tone of the show. That's why I think Lone Rat and Cubs works better, ending on the turtles stepping into the beginning of their adventures. (Though you are right, it is intended to be watched last. I actually did like the final image the show ended on.) Thanks for your thoughts!

Yeah, I hate that they left out April and Karai. Karai's arc was at least finished, but April's story never was. And since she was so powerful (and not to mention immune to mutagen), there's no reason to believe she wasn't still alive.

[asfaloth12]

Originally Posted by Powder

Why are folks so up their own asses about happy endings? Nobody's entitled to one. Life's hard, & sometimes the door hits you on the way out. Doesn't mean you didn't have fun along the way.

...and the point has been completely missed.
You do realize that there are people who like Owari and Kavaxas arc as the true ending, right? That's a bittersweet ending right there. The difference between it and Mutant Apocalypse was that it was done well, made sense, and didn't contradict canon. Oh, and didn't dispose of the strong female characters.
People can handle less than happy endings; but they need to make sense and be well-written. If you think MA was , that's your business. But, understand that there are people who feel differently.

Originally Posted by Powder

& frankly I think it's pathetic that some of you people want to re-write history because it didn't go the way you'd like it to.

Here is what I think is pathetic: being unable to handle it when somebody dares to dislike something you like. As you mature, hopefully you'll learn to cope with differing opinions.
You don't get to decide how people view the finale. If you want to view it as the true ending, that is your business. I'm not going to stop you and have no desire to do so. You don't get to decide for other people.
Also, I hope you realize that this is a fictional cartoon, and not real life. So, I'm not sure how it's "changing history", when these are fictional characters (awesome ones, yes, but fictional). Some people already have bad things happening in their own lives, and turn to fiction as an escape. So, while I don't mind bittersweet or sad endings AS LONG AS THEY ARE WELL DONE, I'm not arrogant enough to judge people who only like happy endings. Hell, I'm not even arrogant enough to judge people who like downer endings based soley on their being downer endings, and without any critical thought.

Originally Posted by newfan

There are going to be mixed opinions, we're all fans of this show and are allowed our feelings on the end.

God, this is so refreshing to read. Thank you.
I don't care if somebody likes the Apocalypse Arc and wants to consider it the true ending. That's their business. But, I will not put up with anybody trying to force me to blindly accept something as canon, if it makes no sense to me.

Originally Posted by newfan

On the other hand, we are not wrong to expect a happy/happier ending for a show (especially a kids show) where the characters aren't killed off and one of the heroes permanently mutated into a monster.
God even True Blood got a happy ending!

Plus, there are many of us, who noticed contradictions with established canon. And we were bothered by plot holes. And the fact that they basically disposed of two important, strong female characters--- some pretty unfortunate implications there.
I know people thought it was well-done, and I respect your opinions. I'm certainly not going to tell anybody what they can or cannot like. I thought there were some good moments, and the animation and voice acting were fantastic as always, but also thought the storytelling was overall pretty weak. And it just didn't feel like it fit with the rest of the series, a feeling that has been strengthened as I've watched parts of earlier episodes. So, I'm going to agree with Nickelodeon on this one (can't believe I'm saying this). For me, it only works as an alternate reality.

[MrTMNT2012]

Originally Posted by Powder

http://i68.tinypic.com/2ic5y7c.jpg

Why are folks so up their own asses about happy endings? Nobody's entitled to one. Life's hard, & sometimes the door hits you on the way out. Doesn't mean you didn't have fun along the way.

& frankly I think it's pathetic that some of you people want to re-write history because it didn't go the way you'd like it to.

Agreed.

Happy endings have always been the easy way out imo. All good stories derive from a form of tragedy anyway, it's not like it's an INHERENT fault with a series if it decides to have a bittersweet ending.

[CyberCubed]

The only change I would have made at the end of Mutant Apocalypse is show an old age April and a scattered tribe of humans meet the Turtles in the forest around the water area. I was half-expecting April to show up within the last 3 minutes of the episode, I'm kinda shocked she didn't.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by MrTMNT2012

Agreed.

Happy endings have always been the easy way out imo. All good stories derive from a form of tragedy anyway, it's not like it's an INHERENT fault with a series if it decides to have a bittersweet ending.

Depressathons are for edgelords

[Powder]

Originally Posted by asfaloth12

blah blah blah

Canon is canon. Period. You don't like it? Fine. But what the execs, or you/Tumblr think should've been the ending changes nothing. Mutant Apocalypse is the end. Fact.

You can have your own desire or interpretation, but you cannot argue canonical data. Don't use the word 'canon' for your fantasies.

& for the record I'm not really a big fan of the episodes, so you have no argument on that front.

Originally Posted by asfaloth12

Oh, and didn't dispose of the strong female characters.

[asfaloth12]

Originally Posted by Powder

Canon is canon. Period. You don't like it? Fine. But what the execs, or you/Tumblr think should've been the ending changes nothing. Mutant Apocalypse is the end. Fact.

Yes, canon is canon. And this arc contradicted canon. It was the last arc produced, nothing more. It won't be the last arc aired on Nickelodeon (and they are treating the arc as non-canon, by the way). That will be the crossover arc, whether you like it or not. It doesn't matter what Ciro intended. The end is whatever you want it to be. I don't care if people want to consider it the "true" ending, but I am under no obligation to blindly agree with them

Originally Posted by Powder

You can have your own desire or interpretation, but you cannot argue canonical data..

Well, that's progress. Yes, we can all have our own interpretation. I'm glad you're starting to realize that.
If you cannot argue against canonical data...well then, that means the arc can't be canon, since it contradicts canon.

Originally Posted by Powder

Don't use the word 'canon' for your fantasies

Ah, but I don't believe the Apocalypse arc fits into canon. Haven't you been paying attention? So, I have absolutely no idea why you would consider it to be one of my fantasies.

Originally Posted by Powder

& for the record I'm not really a big fan of the episodes, so you have no argument on that front.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Powder

http://i68.tinypic.com/143fggi.png

Oh, you mean somebody who isn't a misogynist? Yeah, pretty much.

[Powder]

What color is the sky in your world?

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by asfaloth12

It was the last arc produced, nothing more. It won't be the last arc aired on Nickelodeon (and they are treating the arc as non-canon, by the way). That will be the crossover arc, whether you like it or not. It doesn't matter what Ciro intended.

Wow!

To rephrase: The creative mastermind behind the series has no say in the matter. However, the soulless corporation focused only on profit is what counts.

Ok dude.

[Vegita-San]

considering he killed everyone out of spite, so no one else could work on the same stories?

sounds to me like A)he ran out of ideas for a fitting ending and B)is also pretty souless himself.

I'm siding with nick on this one. I'd rather end on a fun note.