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Old 05-20-2018, 08:46 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Sumac View Post
But you don't understand!! All cultures are beautiful!

We have no right to dictate them how they should live, even in our own countries!

If they feel like they want to put their women in potato sacks, rape and abuse them and anyone else - it's their right! It's just their beautiful and unique culture! And everyone with a white skin have no right to complain about it! Otherwise, you are horrible bigot and nazi!


Ah, a wonderful lefty "logic": if white people acted like monsters back in the day it gives right to the immigrants to act like monsters with white people.

It's just white people, after all, always guilty by default, always irredeemable monsters! They deserved to be raped and abused for all the evil they have done!
It doesn't matter that people who are usually end up on receiving end of this, has nothing to do with what Europeans have done back in the day, aside from having the same skin color.

You know what this called? Racism.

So all people who say that white people can't complain about behavior of people of other cultures are just plain racists. Also, I wonder what color of the skin of this commenter?
Plastron is white. And I remember her saying white people can't be the victims of racism. Sadly many left-wingers these days believe that.

I've always found it kinda funny how most of the people who talk about the "evils of the white man" are white people themselves, usually of upper-middle class and well off in life. It's like a modern day version of the "White Man's Burden". They actually do sound condescending to those people they claim to defend and yet cant' see that. I don't really see "people of colour" complaining about "the evil white man" as much as I see other white people do.

White guilt is a very strange thing. The epitome of 1st world problems.

PS: It's also funny that plastron is of Italian ancestry. Italians are known for being rather proud people. Certainly not the type of white people who tend to feel guilty of being white. If plastron went to Italy and said the things she says about "the white man" at times she'd probably be laughed off.
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Old 05-20-2018, 09:22 AM   #22
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Oh man, I wish I could be upper middle class. That would be amazing!
In fact at this point, middle class would also be amazing. Alas I'm neither.

I am of some Italian Ancestry, depending on who you speak to. And trust me, Roman Catholics are no strangers to guilt. Even recovering ones.
It's interesting you mention whiteness in reference to Italians, we're relatively new at being white in America.
And my Italian relatives are often subject to Colorism, being from the south and thereby darker than the folks that hail from the northern part of the country.

In the interest of clarifying some nomenclature:
All people are subject to bigotry, but not all people are subject to oppression.
Racism is the intersection of bigotry and systemic oppression. White people, especially white men, are not subject to systemic oppression in the United States.

This isn't to say that every white dude in America has an easy life, or that there aren't other privilege factors at play. For example, there's class privilege, socio-economic privilege, sexual orientation privilege, among others.

It's possible that you might hear more white people talking about white privilege than people of color because of the particular circles you run in online or in the meat space, or because there are more white people than people of color. There's a reason we use the term minority.
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Old 05-20-2018, 09:47 AM   #23
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Oh man, I wish I could be upper middle class. That would be amazing!
In fact at this point, middle class would also be amazing. Alas I'm neither.

I am of some Italian Ancestry, depending on who you speak to. And trust me, Roman Catholics are no strangers to guilt. Even recovering ones.
It's interesting you mention whiteness in reference to Italians, we're relatively new at being white in America.
And my Italian relatives are often subject to Colorism, being from the south and thereby darker than the folks that hail from the northern part of the country.
White people are native Europeans. Therefore Italians are white.

There's also darker and lighter skinned black and asian folk than others. Why would white ppl be different on this matter? Why wouldn't there be variations among the white folk?

If Italians are not white than those people shouldn't make use of things the Romans invented... like I dunno words of latin origin in many languages? Also roads.

In the UK some polish people have been assaulted since Brexit, and they're stereotyped as being quite pale. Yet many Brits seem to hate them more than they hate blacks or indians.

In Southern Europe we think Germanics eat **** food and speak ugly languages.

See, I can play this game too!
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Old 05-20-2018, 09:56 AM   #24
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And in America, depending on how dark skinned you are, you might not be considered white, no matter how European you are.

Italian-Americans are considered white now, but go back two generations and this was not the case. My family's entry on the US census in the early 1900s lists them as not being white. I can't be positive that my family from the Azores received similar treatment upon coming to this country, but that's mostly because I haven't gotten to that branch in my genealogical work.

That's what I mean by systemic racism.
It's not merely what people believe, it's also what has been codified into the law of the land.

This is where you get things like those "Irish need not apply" signs that date back to the days of the Great Potato Famine.
In America, white is a designation that Europeans get once they've achieved a certain amount of class/socio-political collateral.

I have lost count of the number of times I've heard Italian Americans bemoan how they lost their native language due to assimilation, only to perpetuate that injustice on the newly immigrated. It's an interesting bit of sociology.

It's a bit Bob Ewell, if you're familiar with the novel, "To Kill A Mockingbird."
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Last edited by plastroncafe; 05-20-2018 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 05-20-2018, 10:00 AM   #25
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Italian-Americans are considered white now, but go back two generations and this was not the case. My family's entry on the US census in the early 1900s lists them as not being white.

That's what I mean by systemic racism.
It's not merely what people believe, it's also what has been codified into the law of the land.

This is where you get things like: "Irish need not apply" signs that date back to the days of the potato famine.
That's very flawed. If Italians were not white cause they were tan... then explain the Irish not being white when they tend to be rather pasty white? And Germans also were subject to discrimination in USA iirc.

Tbh Europeans don't care as much about "whiteness" as you guys do. We care more about our nationality/culture overall. Your concept of race/colorism doesn't apply to the whole world, just sayin'.

If a black person is "culturally European" here he'll be viewed as such and not as an n-word.
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Old 05-20-2018, 10:09 AM   #26
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That's very flawed. If Italians were not white cause they were tan... then explain the Irish not being white when they tend to be rather pasty white? And Germans also were subject to discrimination in USA iirc.
Yes. It is very flawed.
I addressed this in my edit above, but I can address it again.
At the turn of the century, being white was less about the color of your skin, and more about your standing in the socio-political and cultural landscape.


Quote:
Tbh Europeans don't care as much about "whiteness" as you guys do. We care more about our nationality/culture overall. Your concept of race/colorism doesn't apply to the whole world, just sayin'.
Race as a concept is European by design. The three races were coined during the heyday of colonialism. (The three races being Caucasoid, Negroid, and Mongoloid). So yeah, I'm not the slightest bit surprised that the rest of the world doesn't adhere to this out-of-the-gate flawed system.

But this doesn't change the fact that this very system still plays a sizable role in American cultural and political discourse.

As for Colorism not being a thing elsewhere, my southern Italian relatives would disagree. As would my southern Burmese and Indian co-workers.

Quote:
If a black person is "culturally European" here he'll be viewed as such and not as an n-word.
Again, not surprising as that's an American thing.
That said, how many generations does one have to live in say...Sweden before one is referred to as Swedish, as opposed to Afghani?
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just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
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Old 05-20-2018, 10:22 AM   #27
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You had not edited your post yet when I replied to your post, so I didn't see it until now.

Why call ti being "white" then? Odd label to use then.

I know Europeans "invented" racism as we know it, but we've moved past that by now. When will our former colonies move past that?

Hmm afaik the major colorism thing I can think of is darker skin being associated with working outdoors/less prestigious jobs. Which is mostly a thing in Asia nowadays, I think. Doesn't have anything to do with being "less pure race" or anything.

I've always assumed North/South divide in italy was due to culture and economy. I don't think there's that much physical difference among Italians from north to south as people think there is? I've seen videos and photos of Sicilian people on the internet and they don't seem particularly different looking from people from Greece, Spain and Portugal. If anything they look a bit more Greek.

As for your question about an Afghani having to live in Sweden in order to be consider a Swede... well I dunno. I'm not Swedish. I guess that would depend on how culturally Swedish he is? I mean, Chinese people in my country tend to not assimilate, even younger gens. So it's hard for people to view them as one of us, as opposed to Ukrainians or Africans who eventually assimilate into our culture and society. If not them, then their kids and grandkids do.

I'm not a fan of the whole genes and culture thing walking together.

Also, A lot of Europeans don't consider Italian or German Americas as actual italians or Germans, just saying. YaĞll "fat yanks" to us - So maybe in some years you'll have racist Europeans not viewing Americans as white people. Especially as America becomes less white each year.

As for the whole privilege thing, I don't buy that tbh. Granted i don't live in USA, but I see LOTS of rich and famous Americans of colour in the media, so they can't have it that bad. Also there's lots of poor white americans unlike what Bernie Sanders say.

Anyway, if I ever go to USA I'll make sure not to go to Starbucks or something so that the barista doesn't spit in my drink assuming I'm Mexican/Latino based on my first name . Thanks for the advice
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Old 05-20-2018, 11:49 AM   #28
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Just throwing in my two cents here, but.... Plastron is right on this one, 100%. The US DOES have a TON of racial/color bias going on, especially here in the South, where I live. People look at skin COLOR before anything else, even more than cultural naming conventions or other factors like dress or apparent education level. As an example, I work with a fair number of Latinos, and even a few black coworkers, and a couple of them in particular are still considered "Black" even though they are TECHNICALLY light enough to pass for white, simply because their overall appearance (hair, facial features, etc) reads as black. (They are mulato, BTW. With a white mom who also happens to be our GM.)

So yes, race/color bias is a thing here, no matter who you are. I can't pass as anything BUT white, even though I supposedly have quite a bit of Native American blood on my dad's side. (Will never be able to prove it, short of a DNA test.) By the same token, there are "pure" whites here who could easily pass as Latino or even black due to how dark they are. And you'd better believe they get lumped in with the actual black and Latino communities. Because especially in the South, people can and DO judge a book by its cover.

Having a fair number of black Americans in Hollywood in no way relates to how the rest of them are viewed or treated. (And in some cases, even the famous ones are still discriminated against if they are not recognized or have not been heard of somewhere.) No matter how rich of famous ONE person is, the rest of their demographic is still judged based on outdated and racist views from past decades, or worse, profiled based on current racial stereotypes of crime rates and socio-economic status. It's a sad fact, but Plastron has it completely spot-on. And OBVIOUSLY white males have it the easiest. (In general- not all share the privilege, especially poor whites in the South who are typically seen as "white trash".)
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Old 05-20-2018, 12:29 PM   #29
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That's something a European like me can't grasp... someone being considered black or brown just because they have a tan even if they have no non-European ancestry?! That's messed up.

So I guess a rather tanned guy like the Czzech footballer Milan Baros would be viewed as a brown skinned guy in your area, Duckie?

Spoiler:


In Europe not everyone looks the same. There's a variety of looks between different countries and even within them. There's stereotypes but A LOT of people don't fit that mold. I've been to many European countries and seen all sorts of people.

No one in Portugal sees you as less of a portuguese person if you're a natural ginger, just like no one in Denmark sees you as less of a Dane if you have dark brown hair.

Now, I'm not saying Europeans can't be racist or xenophobic, but I think we're more willing to look past someone's appearance if they share the same culture/language as we do.

I'm gonna give you an example. brazilians. they're also from a very diverse country with messed up colonial and slavery history. Yet, when they come to Portugal or other European countries... they're all lumped together as simply Brazilians Doesn't matter to us if they're white, mixed, mulatto, black, asian, wtv. They're just Brazilian to us. The same happens to Americans tbh. Tbh, black and Asian Americans are WAY closer to white Americans than a white European guy like me is. I don't want to sound like a dick, but the Asian Americans I've met/talked to didn't seem very exotic to me or different from White Americans. I'm willing to bet they'd even be treated as White in most of Europe.

PS: As for the topic itself... an Afghani/Swede raped someone. OK, he's a bad guy. There's that sort of people in every nationality and race.
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Old 05-20-2018, 12:59 PM   #30
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That's something a European like me can't grasp... someone being considered black or brown just because they have a tan even if they have no non-European ancestry?! That's messed up.

So I guess a rather tanned guy like the Czzech footballer Milan Baros would be viewed as a brown skinned guy in your area, Duckie?



In Europe not everyone looks the same. There's a variety of looks between different countries and even within them. There's stereotypes but A LOT of people don't fit that mold. I've been to many European countries and seen all sorts of people.

No one in Portugal sees you as less of a portuguese person if you're a natural ginger, just like no one in Denmark sees you as less of a Dane if you have dark brown hair.

Now, I'm not saying Europeans can't be racist or xenophobic, but I think we're more willing to look past someone's appearance if they share the same culture/language as we do.

I'm gonna give you an example. brazilians. they're also from a very diverse country with messed up colonial and slavery history. Yet, when they come to Portugal or other European countries... they're all lumped together as simply Brazilians Doesn't matter to us if they're white, mixed, mulatto, black, asian, wtv. They're just Brazilian to us. The same happens to Americans tbh. Tbh, black and Asian Americans are WAY closer to white Americans than a white European guy like me is. I don't want to sound like a dick, but the Asian Americans I've met/talked to didn't seem very exotic to me or different from White Americans. I'm willing to bet they'd even be treated as White in most of Europe.

PS: As for the topic itself... an Afghani/Swede raped someone. OK, he's a bad guy. There's that sort of people in every nationality and race.

No, I think he would be viewed mainly as white, mostly because of his facial structure, or possibly Latino, but only at a glance. Once he started talking, that would probably change, if he has an accent that is obviously European. Like I said, we have so many people that can "pass" as more than one race, that we sometimes lump people into a certain one, based on overall appearance, (mainly skin color, but hair styles/types and facial features factor in too) even if they don't actually fit into it. Accents or lack on them can factor in, but just looking at someone, regardless of how they dress, people tend to assume black/white/etc. until proven otherwise.
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Old 05-20-2018, 02:51 PM   #31
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I've always found it kinda funny how most of the people who talk about the "evils of the white man" are white people themselves, usually of upper-middle class and well off in life. It's like a modern day version of the "White Man's Burden". They actually do sound condescending to those people they claim to defend and yet cant' see that. I don't really see "people of colour" complaining about "the evil white man" as much as I see other white people do.

White guilt is a very strange thing. The epitome of 1st world problems.
It brings us back to the old conversation I had here: that lefties can't process that white people can have trouble too and it doesn't make their troubles somehow less than troubles of POC.

And as usual, people who preach "white guilt" are usually well-off students and young people, who have very little idea about actual trouble. So, it's basically makes them not only racists, but classists as well.

Not very different from that French queen who said that peasants should eat cakes instead of bread.
I know that she wasn't the one who said that, but it's a good illustration of disconnection between lefties and normal people.

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PS: It's also funny that plastron is of Italian ancestry. Italians are known for being rather proud people. Certainly not the type of white people who tend to feel guilty of being white. If plastron went to Italy and said the things she says about "the white man" at times she'd probably be laughed off.
Also Italians faced prejudice from other races in America. But apparently it had nothing to do with racism, which is just another argument on how narrow-minded people like that are.

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In the interest of clarifying some nomenclature:
All people are subject to bigotry, but not all people are subject to oppression.
Racism is the intersection of bigotry and systemic oppression. White people, especially white men, are not subject to systemic oppression in the United States.
In the interest of clarifying how full of **** this definition is:
Racism is not "prejudice + power", because, it means that only people with power can be racists.

Which basically means that Chinese can't be racists to black people, because they have no power over black people and there are no systematic oppression of blacks in China (because, there very few blacks in the country if any) or Russians can't be racists to Japanese, because, they have no power over Japanese people. And so on.

Of course, this concept is very nice to use, when you need to blame white people specifically in US, but outside of USA this definition just doesn't work at all. But as always, lefties are US-centric and being completely blind to how the rest of the world works.

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Race as a concept is European by design. The three races were coined during the heyday of colonialism. (The three races being Caucasoid, Negroid, and Mongoloid). So yeah, I'm not the slightest bit surprised that the rest of the world doesn't adhere to this out-of-the-gate flawed system.

But this doesn't change the fact that this very system still plays a sizable role in American cultural and political discourse.

As for Colorism not being a thing elsewhere, my southern Italian relatives would disagree. As would my southern Burmese and Indian co-workers.
Oh, another typical lefty crap. All in the name to make white people "the most evul".
Concept of race existed as far back as Ancient world.
Educate yourself.
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