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Old 02-02-2019, 08:11 PM   #1
Toxin45
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Will Peter laird ever finish mirage tmnt?

Despite selling the franchise and making 18 issues per year if he wished Peter laird hasn't really tried to conclude mirage at this point I mean he suffered creator breakdowns in the past year since 1988 it was getting beyond his control and that he neglected his family. He has gotten better and later sold the franchise to Viacom/Nickelodeon and idw gained the license to make a new tmnt contitnuty that is still ongoing mirage studios became an in name only buisness and most of the employees moved on to other things leaving the future of mirage and their version of tmnt unknown if or when Peter laird decides to finish the mirage run. With Peter laird getting better and image volume 3 being revived to have a proper ending maybe this will encourage him to finally finish the mirage series with a proper ending. So what are your thoughts will be finish it or not?
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Old 02-02-2019, 09:06 PM   #2
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As they say, don't get your hopes up.
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Old 02-03-2019, 03:22 AM   #3
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Despite selling the franchise and making 18 issues per year if he wished Peter laird hasn't really tried to conclude mirage at this point I mean he suffered creator breakdowns in the past year since 1988 it was getting beyond his control and that he neglected his family. He has gotten better and later sold the franchise to Viacom/Nickelodeon and idw gained the license to make a new tmnt contitnuty that is still ongoing mirage studios became an in name only buisness and most of the employees moved on to other things leaving the future of mirage and their version of tmnt unknown if or when Peter laird decides to finish the mirage run. With Peter laird getting better and image volume 3 being revived to have a proper ending maybe this will encourage him to finally finish the mirage series with a proper ending. So what are your thoughts will be finish it or not?
i could have sworn it was either 4 8 or 12 issues, not 18 (been so long since i thought about this i have completely forgotten)

anyway, i think we still have a ways to go before we see laird take on a TMNT project again. he kept the license on life support for ages and got blown out due to his efforts, cant really blame him not wanting to think about it still and wouldnt hold it against him if he never decided to do so. (not to say I wouldn't be disappointed)
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Old 02-03-2019, 05:11 AM   #4
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I don't think there's really much of a point in asking that question. We can speculate all we want but what it comes down to is whether Peter wants to (or can) do it. I doubt there's any way to answer this question except for "Maybe?" When it comes to things like this, I doubt there's any point in speculating. I suppose the best thing to do is put your expectations low and see what happens.
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Old 02-03-2019, 08:53 AM   #5
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Give him until he's 75, then we can safely say he won't.
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Old 02-03-2019, 10:20 AM   #6
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As much as I'd love for him to finish Volume 4, no, he won't.
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Old 02-03-2019, 02:33 PM   #7
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He definitely won't.

But Andrew might find a way to get it done with his blessing. That's a far more likely bet.

That guy's a mover and a shaker, he gets things done. Laird's Vol. 4 conclusion will never happen, but Andrew's Vol. 4 conclusion given "official" approval actually seems within the realm of possibility, if he puts his energy in that direction one day.
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Old 02-03-2019, 03:07 PM   #8
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He definitely won't.

But Andrew might find a way to get it done with his blessing. That's a far more likely bet.

That guy's a mover and a shaker, he gets things done. Laird's Vol. 4 conclusion will never happen, but Andrew's Vol. 4 conclusion given "official" approval actually seems within the realm of possibility, if he puts his energy in that direction one day.
You mean odessey and origin? How will that become official?
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Old 02-03-2019, 03:34 PM   #9
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You mean odessey and origin? How will that become official?
He isn't talking about those.
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Old 02-03-2019, 03:38 PM   #10
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He isn't talking about those.
So will you actually finish mirage for peter's blessing?

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Old 02-03-2019, 04:31 PM   #11
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If only Kevin and Pete could reunite for one more story. Itd be extremely fascinating, even if a total failure of a story.

I think it could be great though.
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Old 02-03-2019, 04:37 PM   #12
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He isn't talking about those.
Y'know what I admire most about you? Your mastery of reading comprehension compared to some folks. That and your super-human consumption of alcohol. But that's another thing.

I actually didn't chip in for or read your books, and I feel bad about that now. Slipped my radar at the time, and also not an Image fan. But kudos all the same for the Herculean effort that it must have taken.

This is why if Vol. 4 ever gets a conclusion, I can't see it happening any other way. Who else would put the work in?
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Old 02-03-2019, 05:13 PM   #13
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This is why if Vol. 4 ever gets a conclusion, I can't see it happening any other way. Who else would put the work in?
Jim Lawson, with some loose notes from Laird. This is what Peter himself suggested years ago and what we will get at best. What Andrew did with the conclusion of vol 3 is great though.
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Old 02-03-2019, 05:31 PM   #14
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Could he just write it, and not draw it?

I understand that, to some people, Jim Lawson's artwork is "great". I just... don't agree. At all. The nicest thing I can say is that I would never, willingly, read any book that he's drawn. Ever.

If he can write it and Dooney can draw it? That's more than fine. My personal opinion is that Jim wouldn't have broken into the industry as a penciller if it wasn't for who he was friends with. Harsh, maybe, but the majority opinion among people who don't worship TMNT is that his artwork simply isn't professional grade. I question what other company in the 1980s would have hired him, outside of a few indies.

I'd like a book that's pretty to look at. Selfish, I know. But there have been much better pencillers to work on Mirage than Jim. I'd prefer it be well-written AND pleasing to the eye. Rather than, "Well, it's authentic, since he did the majority of the book's art." I get that. But it's not the absolute best presentation.

When every comic dealer I spoke to back in 2005 was telling me, "I can't sell the book, it looks like sh*t, so kids don't wanna read it," that kinda tells me that if they hadn't been so obsessed with "keeping it real" and insisting that Lawson be the artist, the book may have done a lot better. It may have even reached its conclusion, for all we know.

I went to several shops back then, and not one of them ever ordered more than TWO copies of Vol. 4 after the first issue, and were lucky to sell both. They'd insist the feedback they got was, "The book is too ugly." I can only call what I see.

The comparatively lousy Dreamwave book sold much better at any of my shops during its short run than Mirage Vol. 4 did. So did "Tales", for that matter. There's definitely a lesson about presentation in there, somewhere.
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Old 02-04-2019, 10:55 AM   #15
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I'd argue Jim Lawson's art was good with his Tales V1 work and 1990 movie adaption. I'd even argue very good on Return To New York. With that he had Kevin doing the laylouts which gave the whole thing an epic cinematic quality and three different inkers in each issue which gave his work a unique look but it would not have worked had Lawson's pencils not been great.

I even have a bit of a soft spot for the early TMNT V4 art when Peter Laird was doing the inking and gave it a more rounded look and there's even touches of the same cinematic storytelling, I don't know if that's Laird's influence or just his own but it's worth mentioning. I like Eric Talbot's modern art and all but I don't think his current inks do Lawson's art in favours. If he had the time I think Jim would be better inking himself certainly his commission pieces look better.

Lawson's style I think developed by having to do a lot of work very fast. Elements of realism went out the window for a more angular cartoon like quality. It's fine for what it is and what he draws well he draws very well dinosaurs, motorbikes, Jack Kirby-like machinery which V4 is full of.

If you're someone who needs V4 completed I can't imagine you not wanting Lawson to draw it. It doesn't have a whole lot of mainstream appeal but I doubt anyone making it have any pretension of it being a top seller. If it ever happens it would be something done just because Peter and the remaining Mirage crew just want to do it.
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Old 02-04-2019, 11:05 AM   #16
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I'd argue Jim Lawson's art was good with his Tales V1 work and 1990 movie adaption. I'd even argue very good on Return To New York. With that he had Kevin doing the laylouts which gave the whole thing an epic cinematic quality and three different inkers in each issue which gave his work a unique look but it would not have worked had Lawson's pencils not been great.

I even have a bit of a soft spot for the early TMNT V4 art when Peter Laird was doing the inking and gave it a more rounded look and there's even touches of the same cinematic storytelling, I don't know if that's Laird's influence or just his own but it's worth mentioning. I like Eric Talbot's modern art and all but I don't think his current inks do Lawson's art in favours. If he had the time I think Jim would be better inking himself certainly his commission pieces look better.

Lawson's style I think developed by having to do a lot of work very fast. Elements of realism went out the window for a more angular cartoon like quality. It's fine for what it is and what he draws well he draws very well dinosaurs, motorbikes, Jack Kirby-like machinery which V4 is full of.

If you're someone who needs V4 completed I can't imagine you not wanting Lawson to draw it. It doesn't have a whole lot of mainstream appeal but I doubt anyone making it have any pretension of it being a top seller. If it ever happens it would be something done just because Peter and the remaining Mirage crew just want to do it.
Well said. I agree with pretty much all of this.

Lawson's art certainly has its place. His team up in City at War and his early Volume 4 issues contain a lot of beauty.

I do think Lawson's action scenes tend to suffer, when he is left alone. Compared to Kevin's blistering layouts or the awesome splash pages provided in early TMNT issues by Peter and kevin, or CaW splashes, his later work tends to look quick, cheap, and bland when it comes to the action. Doesn't feel dynamic and doesn't provide the "kick-ass" factor that really makes a TMNT book exciting.

I think he handles other important aspects of TMNT extremely well though. I love the "down to earth" vibe he provides, which suits the "slice of life" angles that TMNT is peppered with. I think he can also be great trying to capture the surreal or psychedelic stories as well.

Lawson would be a great fit for a TMNT ending, but I don't know....How can we not hope for Peter and Kevin to finish it together? I don't intend on sounding like a broken record, but I have to will it into reality. Sure, it wasn't Peter's original plan when he kept the Mirage rights, but a lot of time has gone by since then. He and Kevin even teamed up for that IDW cover since then. Here's hoping. Even if it's only for a few pages at the end of the story.
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Old 02-04-2019, 11:13 AM   #17
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Could he just write it, and not draw it?

I understand that, to some people, Jim Lawson's artwork is "great". I just... don't agree. At all. The nicest thing I can say is that I would never, willingly, read any book that he's drawn. Ever.

If he can write it and Dooney can draw it? That's more than fine. My personal opinion is that Jim wouldn't have broken into the industry as a penciller if it wasn't for who he was friends with. Harsh, maybe, but the majority opinion among people who don't worship TMNT is that his artwork simply isn't professional grade. I question what other company in the 1980s would have hired him, outside of a few indies.

I'd like a book that's pretty to look at. Selfish, I know. But there have been much better pencillers to work on Mirage than Jim. I'd prefer it be well-written AND pleasing to the eye. Rather than, "Well, it's authentic, since he did the majority of the book's art." I get that. But it's not the absolute best presentation.

When every comic dealer I spoke to back in 2005 was telling me, "I can't sell the book, it looks like sh*t, so kids don't wanna read it," that kinda tells me that if they hadn't been so obsessed with "keeping it real" and insisting that Lawson be the artist, the book may have done a lot better. It may have even reached its conclusion, for all we know.

I went to several shops back then, and not one of them ever ordered more than TWO copies of Vol. 4 after the first issue, and were lucky to sell both. They'd insist the feedback they got was, "The book is too ugly." I can only call what I see.

The comparatively lousy Dreamwave book sold much better at any of my shops during its short run than Mirage Vol. 4 did. So did "Tales", for that matter. There's definitely a lesson about presentation in there, somewhere.
The art in any volume of TMNT has never been why I enjoy the comics. Volume 1, I never liked Eastman and Laird's art for the early issues. Jim Lawson's art was a step up for me.

Volume 2, the color didn't appeal. Preferred black and white.

Volume 3, the ONLY volume where I like the art.

Volume 4, Lawson's art is fine except for the humans... like, say, Shadow or April. But Turtles, Utroms, dinosaurs, all good.

Even IDW, half the time the art isn't as good as the story.

To sum, TMNT isn't the art, it's the story. so Lawson drawing the rest of Volume 4 doesn't bother me.
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Old 02-04-2019, 11:20 AM   #18
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Probably not, if I had to guess. Peter is old and just wants to enjoy his retirement and not think much of TMNT. Someone else might have to do it instead of him.
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Old 02-04-2019, 11:47 AM   #19
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Peter's situation with the TMNT is endlessly fascinating to me.

I mean, I 100% sympathize and respect his, what is hard not to describe as "disdain" for the TMNT, yet I still find it really interesting.

I mean, I get it - the struggle he went through to keep the franchise alive, the inevitable burnout, etc... but at the same time, I know I can't see it from his perspective, because I'm not him. So it interests me.

Especially in comparison to Eastman, who just seems to be loving the franchise these days. I'm really happy for Kevin, that he was able to break away and come back to the TMNT in a positive way. Maybe deep down, I'd like for Peter to experience the same thing one day.
Of course, he should be happy on his own terms, but you know what I mean.
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Old 02-04-2019, 11:50 AM   #20
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40% chance he does, 60% he doesn't, broken down with these possibilities each having a 20% probability

No: He dosn't care to ever try.

No: He mentions he wants to but doesn't ever start.

No: He starts writing again, takes a long time to get anything out, eventually dies, no ending.

Yes: He wants to and slowly writes ew issues, takes years, eventually finishes before his death.

Yes: He surprises fans by having a short run of comics already finished one day and just publishes it online or prints a few copies of the final issues ending the story abruptly but with an ending.

Spoiler:
He won't
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