What is the obsession with TMNT creators adding in a 5th turtle?

[superstaff]

I wasn't sure whether to put this here or at the movie section since this issue seems to crop up mostly in the movies (but also in TV and comics, as I will discuss below).

But I was just watching this video from THE OLD TURTLE DEN, on a Hallmark movie from the early 2000s that got scrapped. One of the things that caught my attention was that the twist in this film was going to be that the Shredder was, in fact, a long lost brother of the TMNT. A 'fifth' turtle, as you will.

It's a concept that's been forced into the franchise, time and time again. Sometimes it gets rejected like with Kirby, the turtle Shredder, and others they've planned to put into a movie in the past. Then there's the times they've actually managed to canonize it, like with Venus in The Next Mutation and Jennika in the IDW comics.

I've seen some people here regard the concept with disdain, and I can't disagree. I've never seen them do this concept right. It just comes off as lame, hokey, and awkward. For instance, how would a Shredder turtle work? I guess you'd need to completely re-write their backstories, not just for the TMNT but also Splinter. How would such an arc end? Would Shredder turtle join them, and seek redemption? Would they kill him? Does he die? How would this affect their group? It's...strange to think about, and I honestly wonder if the creatives behind that project actually thought this through.

I'd really like to see people's thoughts on this concept. Do you like the idea of a fifth turtle? How would it be able to work, if at all?

[Leo656]

Lack of creativity, masquerading as creativity.

I personally feel there's no "good" way to do it, just ways that are "less-bad".

Between the four "archetypes" each of the Turtles represent, add them all together and you have One Well-Rounded Person. The balance of personalities is pretty evenly-split; while not to say they're each in any way one-dimensional (or shouldn't be, at least), each one is distinctively "The Smart One", "The Funny One", "The Hothead", "The Leader"... what would a fifth one be? "The Funny Smart One"? The "Angry Funny One"? All the bases are already covered, another would just a combination of traits, an amalgamation of two of the others. It wouldn't feel organic. Venus on "The Next Mutation" tried to skate by as "The Naive One", but in truth was just "The Annoying One", so that didn't work either. Thus far, there hasn't been a single attempt that didn't feel forced and tacked-on.

It's a bad idea, best left to the imaginations of first-graders at scribble-time. Because that's what it always comes off feeling like. "I wanna be a Ninja Turtle, toooo! I'mma make up my own and stick him/her in there with the others, and it'll be coooool!"

It ain't cool. It's dumb. It will never NOT be dumb.

[The Deadman]

Originally Posted by superstaff

It's a concept that's been forced into the franchise, time and time again. Sometimes it gets rejected like with Kirby, the turtle Shredder, and others they've planned to put into a movie in the past. Then there's the times they've actually managed to canonize it, like with Venus in The Next Mutation and Jennika in the IDW comics.

Well it's not really being forced if it's only been successful twice.

[Leo656]

It's been executed twice.

Whether either attempt has been "successful", well... mileage varies.

[mrmaczaps]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Lack of creativity, masquerading as creativity.

I personally feel there's no "good" way to do it, just ways that are "less-bad".

Between the four "archetypes" each of the Turtles represent, add them all together and you have One Well-Rounded Person. The balance of personalities is pretty evenly-split; while not to say they're each in any way one-dimensional (or shouldn't be, at least), each one is distinctively "The Smart One", "The Funny One", "The Hothead", "The Leader"... what would a fifth one be? "The Funny Smart One"? The "Angry Funny One"? All the bases are already covered, another would just a combination of traits, an amalgamation of two of the others. It wouldn't feel organic. Venus on "The Next Mutation" tried to skate by as "The Naive One", but in truth was just "The Annoying One", so that didn't work either. Thus far, there hasn't been a single attempt that didn't feel forced and tacked-on.

It's a bad idea, best left to the imaginations of first-graders at scribble-time. Because that's what it always comes off feeling like. "I wanna be a Ninja Turtle, toooo! I'mma make up my own and stick him/her in there with the others, and it'll be coooool!"

It ain't cool. It's dumb. It will never NOT be dumb.

I'd argue that the idea of Jennika becoming a turtle worked in story if not so much since then due to lack of a well thought out character arc since issue 101. Her whole shtick seems to be SJW SJW SJW and whichever strand of sjw bullsh*t the writer wants to beat into our faces.

[MikeandRaph87]

I like the idea of an evil opposite, that began with Rival, Jay Garrick/Flash I's nemesis, but was populaized by Bizarro, Superman's evil opposite. A possibility of redemption and a dark mirror to the hero. Perhaps not a direct one as Bizarro whether from Bizarro World or an imperfect clone created by Lex Luthor is not, but having an evil version of the hero is an idea that can be done very well. Look at all the examples from any Flash to Superman to Green Lantern to Spider-Man. I wish Batman had a definitive one instead of various attempts that don't fully go with the concept. Anyway, I do not want a fifth Turtle, but an evil opposite. Slash has been done so well in both Archie and IDW. They both met tragic endings, but are so well developed and carried the story without hogging the spotlight.

That being said Tokka is redundant to Slash and is unnecessary. Only by being paired with Razhar does it give him something to stand out from Slash, who I prefer.

I do not want to see any female turtle as it is commonly said it enables procreation among the mutant turtles and it will take away the novelty of who they are. I also don't want Kirby or another male mutant turtle. Adding another to the group no matter how its gone about just makes the iteration stand out, and not in a good way. You would think the Venus experiment would have taught TPTB not named Laird never to do it again. Instead of putting a personal stamp and likely alienating fans its best to keep it on the quartet that we were drawn to in the first place. I have no problem at all with various ESTABLISHED mutants that add to a story, but unnamed genderless anamorphs is unnecessary and absurd.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Yeah, it's just a creatively bankrupt idea. I don't want to see a fifth turtle period. Male or female. You're not reinventing the wheel.

[CyberCubed]

It's the Scrappy Doo scenario. Usually a long running series tries to introduce a new character and tries to make them "work" with the original cast. Sometimes it's successful, most of the time it isn't.

Obviously a new Turtle is a bigger deal than the Turtles just having other random human or mutant friends which they do in every series anyway.

[neatoman]

I do agree that it is a very lazy idea, but what exactly makes them gravitate towards this particular lazy idea?

Yes, obviously it's trying to add yet another main character and making it a turtle seems obvious to them. But why stick to the turtle concept? It seems that if they want to add another mutant it would be easy to pick just about any animal there is. A Teenage Mutant Ninja Wasp is not that much better than another Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle, but at least such a character would be unique to look at. Like it's still really lazy, but it is just creative enough to not be a total abomination of creativity.

My guess is that the writers who make such characters think that if the title applies to this new character as well, others are more likely to stick to it.

While we're on the subject. While it may not usually work to make the new character a copy of the main ones, there are instances where it has seemingly worked to some extent. Let's face it, Batgirl and Supergirl are effectively just sexy Batman and Superman halloween costumes for women turned into actual characters, yet they still stick around for some reason despite the obvious lack of thought that went into their creation.

[IndigoErth]

Saw that video last night myself. Maybe the idea didn't seem quite as stale back then, but it just seems rather boring now. I guess it's what you do when you can't come up with anything else. (That and clip shows.) People like Turtles... here, have another one! Yawn. The 4-pack works for me, thanks.

Turtle Shredder is an interesting idea, and sounds like it's taken from that period when Raph played Shredder... but I'm not sure it's really something we need to go back into or make up a new character for it. It would have been less convoluted if that Shredder HAD simply been Raph. That's something that would have been interesting in live action.

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

I do not want to see any female turtle as it is commonly said it enables procreation among the mutant turtles and it will take away the novelty of who they are.

Letting them reproduce, at least naturally, would be more annoying to me than just allowing a girl one to exist. Real world hybrids and genetic oddities as an example... given how nature works, the TMNT probably aught to be sterile and would be an easy explanation as to why they wouldn't be having any of their own.

Though I like the idea of Lita and bringing both a girl Turtle and a little kid into their lives from a completely different direction that doesn't come with the baggage of adding one their own age.


edit: Granted, even bringing a grown Turtle woman in doesn't mean she and one of the guys have to hit it off. It might be more interesting if they don't and let them struggle with deciding if they have some kind of "duty" to bring another into the world, even if they aren't into each other, or if that would only be wrong and cruel to do to a child anyhow, given the dead end gene pool. And whether it's right or wrong to instead choose other partners who don't look like them, but actually connect with.

[Dejablue]

I used to say that Jennika was a pretty good idea. But the story she is in is crumbling and heavily cutting into her appeal. So what exactly makes her an SJW? The fact that Sheena kissed her? She didn't ask for that. Though one can argue the depiction of said kiss, places a strong assumption on Jennika by readers that she's bisexual now. And that might be the author's intention.

There is the stereotypical girl-band ****. But that alone is not a deal breaker.
Its mutant town. Mutant Town was so poorly done that it hobbled Jennika. And then Lita was thrown in to steal her thunder even further. Lita even more so didn't have to be a turtle. With Jennika it at least made sense.

[GoldMutant]

Unless one plans on making a specific crossover (i.e. Power Rangers) or willing to tell a proper story, I don't think a fifth turtle works. By that, I mean you could separate the fifth turtle from the main four and tell themes of isolation. Being the only one of its kind, let alone reacting to the TMNT/vice versa. It has potential but can reek of desperation.

Really, it's like having the multiple mutants in specific TMNT incarnations. Yes, you have unique types/abilities, but how do they react? Better yet, if it's entirely mutant-based, how does it work?

Do it properly and you can get an interesting character. Do it poorly, and you could end up with the abandoned Kirby or Venus (doesn't deserve the hate, personally).

All things considered, it's creatively bankrupt but can be run with depending on circumstance.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by neatoman

I do agree that it is a very lazy idea, but what exactly makes them gravitate towards this particular lazy idea?

Yes, obviously it's trying to add yet another main character and making it a turtle seems obvious to them. But why stick to the turtle concept? It seems that if they want to add another mutant it would be easy to pick just about any animal there is. A Teenage Mutant Ninja Wasp is not that much better than another Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle, but at least such a character would be unique to look at. Like it's still really lazy, but it is just creative enough to not be a total abomination of creativity.

My guess is that the writers who make such characters think that if the title applies to this new character as well, others are more likely to stick to it.

While we're on the subject. While it may not usually work to make the new character a copy of the main ones, there are instances where it has seemingly worked to some extent. Let's face it, Batgirl and Supergirl are effectively just sexy Batman and Superman halloween costumes for women turned into actual characters, yet they still stick around for some reason despite the obvious lack of thought that went into their creation.

I think the reason why this specific idea persists - and in turn, why so many of us groan and resent it on its very face - is because it's the MOST absolutely lazy and uncreative thing you could think of, as a way to try and "add to the mythos".

I mean seriously. It's LITERALLY the laziest idea. Literally ANY other idea you could think of, even if it were as simplistic as "Let's add a mutant frog" (which the cartoon did, and indeed it did feel lazy), would by default be less lazy and more creative, simply for the fact that it was even 1% different.

"Add more mutant turtles" is the absolute nadir of creativity. Even if you somehow managed to execute it well, by some miracle, there's still no escaping the fact that by definition it's the laziest possible thing anyone could ever think of. Any three-year old who can count to five could think of it.

So the reason it comes up so often is the same reason everybody hates it: Simply because it's literally the worst idea.

[Dejablue]

"Add more mutant turtles" is the absolute nadir of creativity. Even if you somehow managed to execute it well, by some miracle, there's still no escaping the fact that by definition it's the laziest possible thing anyone could ever think of. Any three-year old who can count to five could think of it.

So the reason it comes up so often is the same reason everybody hates it: Simply because it's literally the worst idea.

There are worse ideas than a 5th turtle. Going by the complaints about recent idw issues. And even if an idea is lazy or dumb it can still be successful and popular.

But admittedly, adding 1 extra is already walking the fine line. Adding 2 extra is crossing it by a giant leap. Lita could have been the "Lets add a mutant frog" idea and I think less people would mind. There is a gigantic pool of reptiles and amphibians (or even fish) to chose from we didn't need another turtle.

People want to do 5th turtles is because they want to leave a mark on tmnt's legacy in some way. 5th turtle seems to be the fastest way to do that. A better reason would be to, maybe, tell a good story? If the story is good I don't care.

[Coola Yagami]

Most hero groups and whatnot deal with the idea of a 'add one more character' to the team.

Look at Power Rangers. **** got real when they introduced the Green Ranger cause the idea (at the time) of a NEW Power Ranger joining in the original crew was awesome. Not much different when it comes to the Turtles.

[CyberCubed]

Has adding a new character to an established set of characters ever worked before? And I don't mean recurring characters or side characters, but adding in a main character that becomes a permanent staple of the franchise in all incarnations going forward.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Most hero groups and whatnot deal with the idea of a 'add one more character' to the team.

Look at Power Rangers. **** got real when they introduced the Green Ranger cause the idea (at the time) of a NEW Power Ranger joining in the original crew was awesome. Not much different when it comes to the Turtles.

1. That character was introduced as a villain, rather distinct in that regard.
2. It actually happened fairly early on.
3. The character explicitly could only help out a limited amount of times.
4. In the actual show, not the reshoot hellspawn show you're talking about, the character straight up died. He only lived in the American edition because Americans don't think kids can handle the subject.
5. The series literally introduces a new set of characters every single season, nobody cares about anyone character in particular. It's formulaic as all hell, if you were to describe any season without mentioning names or terminology, it would be hard to tell which season you're even talking about.

Adding a fifth turtle is more like adding another member to the Fantastic Four than adding another Power Ranger. The Fantastic Four does not consist of easily replaceable characters. Zyuranger is like what? The sixteenth season of Sentai? At that point there must have been at least 70 characters. Zyuranger is technically not even the first one to add more team members partway through the run, it's just the first to have six in total. The franchise was like this long before it was given cheap reshoots for Americans.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Has adding a new character to an establishes set of characters ever worked before? And I don't mean recurring characters or side characters, but adding in a main character that becomes a permanent staple of the franchise in all incarnations going forward.

Raven, Starfire and Cyborg have more or less subplanted the original Teen Titans but I don't think the original Titans (aside from maybe Robin) were all that popular in the first place.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Has adding a new character to an establishes set of characters ever worked before? And I don't mean recurring characters or side characters, but adding in a main character that becomes a permanent staple of the franchise in all incarnations going forward.

The X-Men were around a long time before Wolverine ever showed up. Just off the top of my head.

Which is pretty funny considering how to most people he's the one guy you absolutely can't leave out but he was a relatively "late-game" addition. Whereas nobody cares about Iceman at all but he was there from Day One.

[AquaParade]

While I have never loved the idea, I can understand why it's popular. It's a question that easily comes to mind - "What if there were another turtle??". It does sort of ask to be explored, even if it seems like low-hanging fruit. I mean, I'd probably have no interest in exploring it as a creative person, but I could see how some would.
From a purely visual standpoint - and hey, comics are about the visuals - I think it's been fun to see Jennika on the covers, as well as a new "color scheme" for a turtle. I'm not saying that validates the character on a story level for me, but I like TMNT art and it's fun to have a wrench thrown into the visual dynamic.

And obviously, for marketing or toy manufactures, the reasons are obvious.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Leo656

The X-Men were around a long time before Wolverine ever showed up. Just off the top of my head.

Which is pretty funny considering how to most people he's the one guy you absolutely can't leave out but he was a relatively "late-game" addition. Whereas nobody cares about Iceman at all but he was there from Day One.

Yeah but the Original X-Men book only actually lasted 66 issues if you don't count the reprints. That may sound a lot these days but keep in mind that The Amazing Spider-Man started the same year, it lasted 406 issues without anything weird happening, and that just promoting Ben Reilly as the new main character by temporarily replacing it with "The Amazing Scarlet Spider". It's a book that has never really been cancelled. With X-Men there was about seven years of a single book being published and a literal five year gap when it came to new stories before Wolverine was introduced. Guest appearences in other books from 1963 to 1975 is pretty much just enough to fill a single trade.

It's kind of like the Teen Titans example I brought up earlier, not every series was that popular from the start, sometimes it's an iteration made way later that becomes popular. In the case of the X-Men, they seemed popular enough to be kept alive through reprints but the lack of actual content until the introduction of Wolvie certainly implies the series just wasn't popular enough to actually keep it going properly.

Although, I have to admit it's a weird scenario. Unpopular titles are typically just kept dead and are only reprinted if it's important to some other book, like if it introduced a character that is popular in some other book. But I don't think any of the pre-Claremont team members were popular before he got on the book, so you tell me?