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Old 12-17-2017, 06:59 PM   #801
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Andy Serkis thinks he knows a lot more than Andy Serkis knows.

I was thinking about the movie on the weekend.
Spoiler:
I think I would have liked it a lot more if they culled a sub-plot or two. On a positive note; I really liked the Rey v Ben stuff, and the Luke v Rey stuff. The way Ben and Rey talk to each other across space was so simply and elegantly done, and the actors were enjoyable to watch. The scene about Rey’s parents was more emotionally engaging than anything in the last 4 (Ep. 1,2,3 & 7) movies. I would have liked the rebel fleet business, but I thought it was poorly written. I like Laura Dern, I like Oscar Isaac, but watching those scenes was a chore.

I would have cut out the codebreaker/casino stuff. For one thing, it had some of the worst VFX in the whole film – those racing dog/goat/cat monsters looked like rejects from a Harry Potter film. A casino could have been a really cool setting for a Star Wars scene, but they just breezed through it, and nothing really interesting happened in there. And did anyone else feel a little nauseous when the Disney Corporation started lecturing you about how evil weapons manufacturers and filthy rich people are? Disney? The filthy rich corporation that is partnered with the likes of General Electric, and General Dynamics. So in other words, according to the script, this movie was produced by “the worst people in the galaxy”.

I guess they needed something to do with Finn so they gave him a sub-plot, but it didn’t really go anywhere. I like Rose, and Kelly Marie Tran is a good actor, but that whole chunk of the film needed a rewrite or two. Speaking of Rose – I almost laughed out loud when she appears in the First Order officers uniform, and her stylishly feathered hair is hanging down under the cap, and nobody notices. Evil BB8 (BBHATE?) notices something is up – they should have cut to an droid-vision POV shot where Rose’s hair is flashing red or something. “Alert - dress code violation!”.
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Old 12-17-2017, 07:26 PM   #802
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Old 12-17-2017, 08:21 PM   #803
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Originally Posted by Andrew NDB View Post
What I've always said is that yes, absolutely, the EU stuff needed to be wiped out for any kind of 35 year later sequel trilogy to work. That said, it's also kind of necessary that in doing so, the new movies they make need to be good enough in their own right to justify that.

I know 7 does not and I'm not sure that 8 does either.

You don't wipe something to make something that is the same if not worse. If George hadn't sold Star Wars he would've made the Sequel Trilogy he would've wanted without giving two sh-ts about the EU and the EU would've scrambled and fixed any inconsistencies with some convoluted explanation even if it meant writing a book retconning a bunch of characters DC/Marvel style.


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it sounds like The Last Jedi is about letting the old fall away, which was never going to sit well with hardcore fans.
I've seen a lot of people who like the movie defend it with points like "Fans are just mad because they don't like change" or "This movie didn't keep it safe, it took risks and people don't like that".

I don't see what risks the movie took or how much it "changed", at least to me specifically what I don't like is how safe it is and how it doesn't take any risks. I already mentioned my favorite part was when things seemed to be taking a turn towards something different but the movie ends with Rebels vs Empire just like the OT was and TFA set up.

Also, I apologize if I spoiled anything accidentally since you haven't seen it. But maybe because you've read so much stuff you'll end up liking it more like Andrew did.


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Exactly.
But there's another thing to consider: The mainstreaming of fandom and all things geek.

The toxicity we're seeing now was always there, it's just it usually had a much smaller venue. And those venues were considered safe spaces so long as you agreed with the dominant paradigm. For the longest time it was gold-star gatekeeping geeks who got to control what that paradigm was.
And now they don't.
And they are not happy about that.

You can see it in the video game world.
For years video game fandom wanted to be taken seriously, and wanted their medium of choice to be viewed as art.
And now it is...and there's a very vocal portion of that fandom who really does not like all the side effects of that legitimacy.

Things like deconstructive media criticism.

At the end of the day the stories we make, and how we make them, say something about us as creators and our culture as a whole. We affect the media as much as it effects us.

To be blunt, geeks are sore winners.
We're not shoved into lockers anymore, but instead of being better people...we're just go around shoving other people into lockers because we can. And we think that they deserve it, because people did it to us first.
Do you realize how toxic you are with your condescending tone, baiting every thread with politics and ignoring posts because "they're not worth your time"?

I wouldn't be surprised if you only like this movie because of your political agenda, you're no better than the people you claim are wrong.
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Old 12-17-2017, 08:29 PM   #804
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It's a lot more like growing up and realizing the persecution complex is offputting and that wrapping yourself up so much in one thing is kind of insane and even detrimental to your own mental health, but you can call it dismissive if you like.
Why are you always make it about some complexes?

Protecting what you like is not a complex.

As with everything it depends on a level of dedication, of course. If someone ready to start a campaign to downvote or upvote movie - that's going overboard. When you just do not want people mindlessly bash what you like - this has nothing to do with complexes.

I am just saying that there are bunch of people who might not have invested a lot of interest in franchise and for them it's just one of the many distractions.

And when the new episode comes out, they act like they are "specialists" in Star Wars anything and dismiss any questions and criticism from old fans of the series as "useless rambling". Even if there are fanboys who hate everything new, because it ruins their perceptions of the series, it doesn't mean that all of them obsessed like or that all of them can't make a legitimate complaint.

And as I have seen, quite a lot of people complain about this movie, not in terms of "they changed - now it sucks", to just dismiss it as "few nerds are angry at something again".

It's not about complexes - it's about respect.
And making it look like it's about complexes makes it look like everyone who dare to have strong opinion about something they like, are sick, which is, once again, needlessly dismissive.

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Honestly? Some of the complaints do sound silly and nitpicky, but I can't say if they actually are until I see it. As for TFA, I saw a lot more nerds defending that movie while others were like "this is... basically the same movie". Seriously, I saw a lot of people like "stop s***ting on this, they had to take the time to get Star Wars right, to reassure us, this is what Star Wars should have been instead of the prequels, what is your problem" for that one, or infighting about that. So maybe we just move in different circles again.
There were complaints from old fans exactly about TFA being a copycat of ANH, as well, as Rey being a Mary Sue.

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Sure, it reminds me of the majority of differences of opinion in general. There's never been some utopia where we all got along. The perception is just that it's so much worse now because the internet has a lot of us essentially the equivalent of in a big room together arguing about this sort of thing, rather than just small town communities who didn't talk to much outside unless they, like, had a pen pal or traveled. We've all rolled our eyes and wanted to dismissively wank on the inside even before social media blew up and tuned people out.
Differences are just that, differences.

Fanboish blind worship - is another beast all together. It goes beyond "just having differences" into territory "if you don't think like me - than you a worse human being".

I was browsing Internet for the last decade and might say, I didn't see such level of vitriol in discussions before.
You might say that everyone were always fanboys on the inside, a notion that I find rather dismissive and needlessly all-encompassing, but I am pretty sure that before the last few years people were capable of having conversations without instantly tuning out everyone who are disagree with them.

Also, I would say, if Internet was really like a big room for everyone, then there would be less zealotry.
The problem is that Internet is divided to many rooms and social networks give people opportunity to create their own hugboxes, where they are completely isolated from challenging opinions. So, when they leave them and step into "bigger world", they so thoroughly soaked in rhetoric "only my opinion is worthy, everyone else are stupid".
And now, those people from social network hugboxes trying to instill the same level of discussion on forums and other non-isolated platforms, which is not exactly a good thing for everyone involved.

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That brings us back to moderators, which you can't really do with something on the scale of social media. That means getting the platforms themselves to tamp down on abusive bull, but they're reluctant to do that. So it's pretty much convincing them, I guess.
Communities should chose their own neutral moderators to keep them healthy. In theory.
In practice, good luck with that.

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If they fail, they fail - though it's Star Wars, so the terms of failure are different as it'll make a bajillion dollars and fans are used to failure enough they'll just move on and hope the next is better - but even if I see this and think it's garbage, I'm happy to hear they're at least doing something different than just remaking Empire, which was what I expected.
What I was talking about is not failure as is it, but more about fanboish following that some creators and franchises receive, where people have mentality "they can do no wrong".
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Old 12-17-2017, 08:56 PM   #805
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Bobby Moynihan from SNL join the Jedi Council to do a review of The Last Jedi.

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Old 12-18-2017, 01:01 AM   #806
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Why do those thumbnails always make me want to slap the person in them? I’ve never been to a YouTube SEO seminar; are people more likely to click on your video if you look like a dipsh*t?
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Old 12-18-2017, 02:42 AM   #807
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Why do those thumbnails always make me want to slap the person in them? I’ve never been to a YouTube SEO seminar; are people more likely to click on your video if you look like a dipsh*t?
Lol chill mang.
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Old 12-18-2017, 05:06 AM   #808
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Originally Posted by Sumac View Post

I was browsing Internet for the last decade and might say, I didn't see such level of vitriol in discussions before.
1991 here. I only noticed it getting to insane levels in the last 5 years or so.

I personally only start to ignore someone for a few reasons

- they become needlessly combative or insulting to the point where you can set your watch to it.

-their opinion feels like it was cut and pasted from a past opinion and doesn't make all that much sense each time it's posted.


-they just plain act like a jerk and don't respect what you write.. going back to point one.

I first noticed this behavior start in facebook groups, then it spread fast to message boards like a disease, and now it's everywhere.
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Old 12-18-2017, 07:12 AM   #809
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Fandom toxicity has been discussed to death in this and other threads around the forum. We get it--people are assholes sometimes. Constantly pointing it out over and over again doesn't make you any more enlightened, or excuse your own negative behavior.

Regarding Star Wars, I am also pressed to wonder if what we have right now is any better than the old EU, or even if the old stuff was worth destroying for this.

I have to say that I have consistently enjoyed new characters like Doctor Aphra and Kanan, especially within their respective comics. I don't think the Rebels cartoon is as good as Clone Wars, but sometimes it has some of the same compelling moral ambiguity as its predecessor. It's nice that they brought back Billy Dee Williams and James Earl Jones as Lando Calrissian and Darth Vader respectively, and the new cast has grown on me (yes, even Ezra). Also, I think the Vader/Ahsoka battle at the end of season 2 is as good as anything we've ever gotten from SW, in the movies or the supplemental material.

The real question, IMHO, is whether the movies will always have to be dumbed down for the masses while also keeping that primary status in the canon. There were clear narrative risks TLJ could have taken in terms of the Rey/Kylo arc, but they didn't. I think TLJ as a whole is like a "one step forward, two steps back" situation. It raises some fascinating questions about what you think you know about Luke and some of the older characters, but it also ruins them in a way while sidelining the new cast members you're supposed to now care about (in this case, Poe and Finn). Also, I don't think Rey has had any real development other than the stuff she can do with the Force. Is there any tension now for IX? Does anybody really think she won't beat Kylo Ren in the final battle?

Even if the sequel trilogy ends up mediocre as a whole, I think it can be "fixed" in the way Clone Wars and the newer comics (specifically, both volumes of the Darth Vader series) improved on and expanded the prequels.
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Old 12-18-2017, 07:39 AM   #810
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it's not better than the old EU.

they just cherry picked what they liked, and switched around the details.

for example, there was NO reason to name hans son BEN. That was Luke's son in the books, where the name made far more sense. but, this vaunted story group claims they can't use anything that's been done before, so they couldn't very well call hans son jacen....that would just be re using ideas, would it not?

smh.

Instead of Chewie dying, han dies this time around.
Instead of Jaina, we get Rey who will most likely have to battle kylo/jacen/ben and slay him in the end. just like the books.

Jacen kills Mara in the EU. here Ben Kills han....and..
Luke and ben go on a journey to discover things about the force.
Luke self exiles himself to an island and cuts himself off from the force..

same details, just switched around a bit for the general audience that doesn't read the books.
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Old 12-18-2017, 09:03 AM   #811
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for example, there was NO reason to name hans son BEN.
Ehhhh... Ben was kind of the one responsible for everyone meeting. Without Ben, Leia wouldnt have sent R2 to Tattooine, which lead to Luke meeting Obiwan, which in turn lead to Obiwan taking Luke to Mos Eisley where they met Han.
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Old 12-18-2017, 09:59 AM   #812
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Director Rian Johnson Explains The Thinking Behind One Of The Movie's Biggest Twists
https://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-f...twists-a156421
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Old 12-18-2017, 10:13 AM   #813
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I disagree, if you scrap the old EU I would expect the new stories to be influenced by the very best of the EU and ignoring the things that didn't work.

The problem is 30 years in the future the EU had already moved past the Empire vs Rebels, the remnants of the Empire was only a few years more after ROTJ then they moved on to other things for the most part.

Here I don't see them taking too many ideas from the old EU, let's face it Han/Leia having a kid and turning to the dark side is not the most original idea so I doubt they took those from the EU, they likely just came up with them themselves. But yeah the ideas they have taken and making them worse when you already have a template of what worked is dumb, why scrap something to make a less interesting yet still messy EU?

Kylo being named Ben is not very logical, only Luke really knew him as Ben, to Leia he was Obi Wan. I mean it's not a detail I care too much about or that it bothers me but yeah I wouldn't say it was logical.
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Old 12-18-2017, 10:52 AM   #814
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Even if the sequel trilogy ends up mediocre as a whole, I think it can be "fixed" in the way Clone Wars and the newer comics (specifically, both volumes of the Darth Vader series) improved on and expanded the prequels.
No really sure, if those things can be "fixed" post-factum.
The movie should be good from the beginning, not "fixed" by outside materials.
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:27 AM   #815
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I never understood how Clone Wars "fixed" the prequels or made them better. I watched all of Clone Wars and it's fine, I like it for what it is, a Star Wars spin-off.

It didn't make Anakin's turn in Episode III feel any less random. It still treated Yoda like a jumping madman which I hated. It didn't make Boba Fett the badass he seemed to be in the OT, though I'll give them that they tried with him. It made Count Dooku and Grievous bigger fools because of villain decay. Obi Wan's friendship with Anakin didn't feel any better.

I actually prefer the first season's anthology take on the Clone Wars and we would see how different battles affected what. When the show became more serialized it was less about the Clone Wars conflict and more about the characters, which I know is what people liked about the show but that was not what the show was about, I wanted a show about the different issues of the Clone Wars which at first the show did try to cover.

To me the show still has many of the faults of the Prequel Trilogy like making Jedis be superheroes, dialog isn't great and overall ignoring established things. I still enjoyed it as I mentioned but it's not a perfect show. Rebels has similar but also different problems, but i'm forgiving of them since they're not the main movies just like I"m more forgiving for comics/video games and othe EU content.
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Old 12-18-2017, 01:44 PM   #816
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Where the hell to begin on this?

Spoiler:
First off: Disney is doing this all wrong. their grand plan is to get rid of all the old characters out of the way, so the new ones can have a chance to shine. and to do this, they are basically copying, ALMOST beat for beat, the original trilogy bit by bit.

The Entire Cave/Cavern sequence was pointless. another retread that went nowhere.

The Rose/Finn sub plot was a fricken Retread of THE FORCE AWAKENS! he basically learns NOTHING from the first movie and goes through the EXACT Same beats again. only this time, useless character #1 Rose is being substituted for Rey.

If there is a love triangle in the third one, god help me.

Gorilla walkers. Walkers in general. Why the hell where they even NEEDED in this? they did nothing! All to setup a ESB moment that fell flat.

Other stuff that fell flat.
Humor.

some of it works, ALOT does not.
Kylo battering hux around in the walker, and the pilot saying 'immediatly sir'. that works.

Having Poes foot break through a starfighter base, and the 'I believe he is tooling you, sir'... lines do not.

I agree with Mark Hamil. Every decision done with luke on this is WRONG WRONG WRONG. especially the flashback scene with him and ben. It was simply another excuse to call back to the 'he could be another vader' plot line.

Anyone who thinks this is NOT a retread of ESB and ROTJ thrown together needs to take the new nostalgia glasses off. some shots copied beat for beat. Yoda walking around in ghost form. rey having the handcuffs shot off her. the light saber flying to her hand.

I have no real desire now to see the Han Solo movie...that'll probably be a rental. and the ONLY reason I will probably go see 9 is because my father still enjoys these movies. otherwise, I think it'll be a rental too.


The best way to describe this movie? Disjointed as hell.
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Old 12-18-2017, 02:02 PM   #817
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Yeah...

Spoiler:
Where Snoke showed Rey the fleet being destroyed as the Emperor did with Luke. Rey turning herself in thinking she could turn Ren like Luke with Vader, Snoke not suspecting his apprentice would turn on him (even though the reasons were different) .....and Yoda prodding Luke with his stick It was nice to see him show up though.
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Old 12-18-2017, 02:08 PM   #818
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Yeah...

Spoiler:
Where Snoke showed Rey the fleet being destroyed as the Emperor did with Luke. Rey turning herself in thinking she could turn Ren like Luke with Vader, Snoke not suspecting his apprentice would turn on him (even though the reasons were different) .....and Yoda prodding Luke with his stick It was nice to see him show up though.
Spoiler:
Troll Force Ghost!Yoda was a very welcome surprise.
So we know the Jedi texts make it on the Falcon. Did Luke put them there?
Or did Rey steal them? And if so, is that why Yoda said, she already had all she was going to learn from them, and then blew up the tree?
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So your wants and needs as a fan should outweigh everyone else's?
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just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
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Old 12-18-2017, 02:16 PM   #819
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Originally Posted by plastroncafe View Post
Spoiler:
Troll Force Ghost!Yoda was a very welcome surprise.
So we know the Jedi texts make it on the Falcon. Did Luke put them there?
Or did Rey steal them? And if so, is that why Yoda said, she already had all she was going to learn from them, and then blew up the tree?
Spoiler:
It smells like a reshoot thing to me, maybe Abrams asked a favor of Johnson. The clear intention was to burn everything down. Luke stashing them in the Falcon pre-burning would make his attempt to burn them pointless, and Rey didn't really have any chance to swipe them.
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Old 12-18-2017, 02:17 PM   #820
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Spoiler:
Troll Force Ghost!Yoda was a very welcome surprise.
So we know the Jedi texts make it on the Falcon. Did Luke put them there?
Or did Rey steal them? And if so, is that why Yoda said, she already had all she was going to learn from them, and then blew up the tree?
Spoiler:
and In his puppet form too!
Well, probably wasn't yoda who moved them (though I suppose he could have) but more likely than Luke who was going to burn then... then seemed upset when he thought Yoda did... so I'd say she took them, she wants to learn more and find answers but got sick of Luke and wanted to race off to Ben.
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