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Old 01-21-2018, 10:52 PM   #1
PApagreg
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Would the Splinter/Shredder rivalry be improved if Yoshi did wronged Saki

We all know how the history with Nick Splinter and Shredder. However what happened if Yoshi did heavily damage Saki in either a psychological/physical manner that was 100% Yoshi's fault and it was selfish and careless in nature. Also when I say hurt I don't mean Tang Shin thinking Yoshi's penis was better than Saki's or Yoshi beat up Saki just because the latter called him names.
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Old 01-21-2018, 11:42 PM   #2
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I don't think it would change very much, especially since Saki already insists that Yoshi wronged him. It would just give him an actual right to do so.
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Old 01-22-2018, 12:00 AM   #3
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It was also the actions of Yoshi's father which accounted to Saki's hatred. I don't know, if they made Yoshi do something more then that would make Shredder more of the good guy but there was a deep level of hatred.
In the ep at the end of season 2, remember when Shredder said he had imagined with world in chaos since he was a boy? I wonder if there was also a tendency there with him anyway.

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Old 01-22-2018, 12:15 AM   #4
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Yes, I feel that even OT Shredder had a better reason for hating Splinter than Nick Shredder did. We needed something more, if not we just get a boring "I'm bad because I"m bad" villain.
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Old 01-22-2018, 12:47 AM   #5
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If in terms of an improved rivalry you mean getting along better then no, their conflict would be even worse since Saki would have more actual reasons to hate Yoshi rather than making his own version of the story. In terms of storytelling potential, maybe. I'd be interested in seeing that angle explored someday.

Also

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Tang Shin thinking Yoshi's penis was better than Saki's
What the shell dude?
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The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question. Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue. Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.
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Old 01-22-2018, 01:43 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by PApagreg View Post
We all know how the history with Nick Splinter and Shredder. However what happened if Yoshi did heavily damage Saki in either a psychological/physical manner that was 100% Yoshi's fault and it was selfish and careless in nature. Also when I say hurt I don't mean Tang Shin thinking Yoshi's penis was better than Saki's or Yoshi beat up Saki just because the latter called him names.
But iwas Yoshi fault. If he didnt attack me i wouldnt be heavily damaged(my face burned because of him). It was all 100% yoshi fault and you know it!
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Old 01-22-2018, 09:15 AM   #7
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Also when I say hurt I don't mean Tang Shin thinking Yoshi's penis was better than Saki's or Yoshi beat up Saki just because the latter called him names.
WHAT?!?
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Old 01-22-2018, 12:58 PM   #8
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Yes, I feel that even OT Shredder had a better reason for hating Splinter than Nick Shredder did. We needed something more, if not we just get a boring "I'm bad because I"m bad" villain.
Unless your missed it, Saki blames Yoshi for Tang Shen dying. He went to slash Yoshi with his wolverine claws and missed and killed Tang Shen instead. Saki loved Tang Shen too, so he stole their daughter and went off.
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Old 01-22-2018, 02:28 PM   #9
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I think it depends on how it was presented.

If Hamato Yoshi did actually do something to wrong the Shredder, then yes Shredder would be more justified in his anger towards Splinter.


However if the Shredder was deliberately hurt or attacked by Hamato Yoshi for good reasons.

Take the IDW for example, Oroku Saki’s father organizes a coup d'état against the leader of the Foot Clan because he was organizing the slaughter of innocent people in addition to taking out targeted foes. However their former leaders spirit is reborn in Oroku Saki. This is noted early, but they let it slide as Saki was just a child. As Saki grows up he regains the memories of his past life and gains vengeance upon his father.

Hamato Yoshi later on speaks against Saki about organizing the wholesale slaughter of the innocent and Saki takes this as treason ordering the deaths of Yoshi, Tang Shen, and their children.

Centuries after that Shredder commits seppuku with Splinter assisting in it. Karai also temporarily leaves the Foot Clan in Splinter’s hands until she returns. Mikey doesn’t agree with the direction things are going and opts to leave. And later on when Splinter kills Darius Dunn, the other three Turtles cut ties with their father.

Or the original Mirage comic where Hamato Yoshi kills Oroku Nagi because the latter man was beating up Tang Shen. Even though his actions were for a good reason, he still killed a member of his clan so Hamato Yoshi and his wife are banished and leave for New York. Oroku Saki however is only a seven year old child so he possibly didn’t understand the reasons as to why his brother had to die, but he did understand the man who took his brother from him was still alive. So he rises in the ranks of the Foot Clan and kills Hamato Yoshi and Tang Shen. Splinter manages to scratch Oroku Saki’s face and then once he and the Turtles are mutated trains them to be his agents of death so that he can have vengeance for his masters death.

So perhaps something could be presented this way. Oroku Saki is power mad and nothing outside of death will stop him. To end the needless bloodshed Hamato Yoshi takes out Saki for the good of the world before accepting banishment. Here he and his adopted pets become mutated and thus become a family. Saki had however survived his injuries (perhaps with some help from Krang or the Kraang) and his first order of buisness is to kill Hamato Yoshi and anyone who is loyal to him.

Splinter has in the mean time been raising his sons peacefully, when he senses or becomes aware that his old enemy is alive and will come for them. So he begins training his sons in Ninjitsu for the purpose of being an army of death for the good of the world. The Turtles take to their training naturally with little question. But when they confront the Shredder for the first time, the Shredder tells them that Splinter has lied to them and he was raising them to bring about his death. He then offers them a place in the foot clan as his followers.

The Turtles refuse this and barely escape with their lives. But confront Splinter about this accusation so they know the truth. Splinter tells them the truth of everything to let them know that yes there was a specific purpose for their training. The Turtles accept this, but also lose faith in their father/sensei to the point of cutting ties with him. They all agree the Shredder is a dangerous force that needs to be stopped, but they refuse to be used as a catalyst in the farce between Shredder and Splinters ideals.
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Old 01-22-2018, 11:11 PM   #10
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Unless your missed it, Saki blames Yoshi for Tang Shen dying. He went to slash Yoshi with his wolverine claws and missed and killed Tang Shen instead. Saki loved Tang Shen too, so he stole their daughter and went off.
I didn't miss it, it's just silly and weak which I don't expect from a show made in 2012.
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Old 01-22-2018, 11:55 PM   #11
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I didn't miss it, it's just silly and weak which I don't expect from a show made in 2012.
.

How precisely?

None of that scenario is silly at all.
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Old 01-23-2018, 10:31 AM   #12
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His what...? Oh my. (These pressing questions are why she needs to live so we can find out! And for other much better reasons.)


Hm. It's always been kind of a two sided revelry already with, as been mentioned, Saki already believing he's been wronged, though it might be nice to mix it up and not make it/part of it over a girl.

If this was the Yoshi who becomes Splinter, it's hard to picture Yoshi doing anything major and keeping intact who Splinter is and his ability to raise the Turtles as good, decent people (revenge killing aside). At least not without some major soul searching and turning his life around... Which could itself be interesting I guess, albeit needing a lot more backstory.

Though something more simple, but deeper and personal -- without making Yoshi necessarily a bad person, just made a bad decision that resulted in causing himself future problems -- could work.

For example, as a mix of new and already canon elements, lets say that...

Quote:
Adopted Saki inherited a precious ancient Hamato family heirloom/relic, given to him by their father. He later learns of his real origin, putting a thorn in his side and it builds up a growing tension and strains his relationship with Yoshi as he struggles with this fact (because Saki of course isn't the most mentally stable person to start with). The heirloom is important to him and still helps to tie him to where he wants to believe he still belongs. Then after a major falling out with Yoshi, prior to leaving the area or country Yoshi sneakily and stupidly steals the heirloom back, thinking it only right, but causes the already unstable Saki to further lose it amid his already struggling identity crisis. Thus Saki, now feeling rejected, rejects the Hamato clan, but is determined to reclaim the heirloom (now more of just a relic I guess) given to him and get revenge for not only that but the wrongs he imagines/believes/knows exist in his past against his real family.
Now personally I saw this as being the Yoshi who becomes Splinter, but it could just as well work that Splinter in a sense 'inherits' the heirloom from Yoshi and is determined to keep it protected and hidden from Saki ever getting it back.
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Old 01-23-2018, 10:34 AM   #13
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I've long been in favor of an ethically and emotionally complex take on Shredder. I thought the 4Kids show was gonna go that route with him, until they revealed he was just an alien squid in an android who lived only for world-domination and revenge.

The Nick toon flashback episode was a very interesting take on the Yoshi-Saki dynamic. I wish it could have had more development. For the good chunk of the series, Saki did seem to genuinely care for Karai... in his own twisted way.
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Old 01-23-2018, 10:36 AM   #14
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The Nick toon flashback episode was a very interesting take on the Yoshi-Saki dynamic. I wish it could have had more development. For the good chunk of the series, Saki did seem to genuinely care for Karai... in his own twisted way.
Agreed, I liked that they went and explored some of their past.
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Old 01-23-2018, 12:38 PM   #15
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Also when I say hurt I don't mean Tang Shin thinking Yoshi's penis was better than Saki's or Yoshi beat up Saki just because the latter called him names.

50 Shades of Yoshi
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Old 01-23-2018, 12:41 PM   #16
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Yeah, the 4Kids route really messed up in making the one-sidedness on Splinter's side. Splinter's just an angry ROUS to Ch'rell and probably thinks nothing of him, and puts more of his grudge on the turtles, who even then weren't worth all of his energy. On some end, I can see how that would work a little bit, but this isn't the storyline for it.
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Old 01-23-2018, 12:56 PM   #17
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I actually liked how in 2k3, the turtles and Splinter were just minor annoyances to Ch'rell who had bigger plans.

That of course, changed later on: reaching its peak in Turtles Forever where Ch'rell's sole motivation was "I HATE TURTLES! DESTROY ALL TURTLES!"
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The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question. Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue. Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.
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Old 01-23-2018, 12:57 PM   #18
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Yeah, that was a major left-heel turn, but I'd imagine that having something to do with them being connected to his capture and getting left on a giant block of ice.
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Old 01-23-2018, 01:15 PM   #19
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"I HATE TURTLES! DESTROY ALL TURTLES!"
Missed opportunity not putting him in league with OT Burne Thompson's girlfriend, Tiffany.

Either she'd make a great girlfriend for a future Shredder, or I could see (not really) her being a mind blowing reveal that she herself is now The Shredder! "Don't you remember me Turtles?! You plagued me with your existence since the 80s and I've come to rid the planet of you!"
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Old 01-23-2018, 02:02 PM   #20
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Right, you've given me no choice but to do this:



But oh man, that might actually have been a really funny twist in Turtles Forever. Like maybe instead of sending Ch'rell to the "ice block", they sent him to a different universe, which could be worked into Turtles Forever. Of course, that would require the writing of Turtles Forever having a bigger sense of humor.
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