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Old 05-25-2018, 09:50 AM   #1
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Suspect in custody after shots fired at Indiana middle school

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...red/index.html

“At least three people were injured after a shooting Friday at a middle school in Noblesville, Indiana, officials said.“
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Old 05-25-2018, 10:12 AM   #2
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Holy ****, middle school is what? 7th and 8th grade? That's awful.

How old was the shooter? Was he one of the students or an adult?
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So I've watched some of April O'Neil's "videos." They were OK, the lesbian massage ones were the best ones. I skimmed through some of the others, but eh.

I've seen better.
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Old 05-25-2018, 10:22 AM   #3
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Holy ****, middle school is what? 7th and 8th grade? That's awful.

How old was the shooter? Was he one of the students or an adult?
In some areas middle school is 11 year old up to 14 year old, 6th grade - 8th grade.

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A suspect is in custody after what Indiana State Police spokesman Sgt. John Perrine earlier called an active shooter incident at Noblesville West Middle School.

Noblesville police Chief Kevin Jowitt told reporters that a teacher and a student were taken to hospitals with injuries. But hospital officials said at least three people, including one adult, were being treated. One student had an ankle fracture.

Jowitt said the shooting was reported shortly after 9 a.m. He said the situation was contained and that a male student was in custody.

"We believe he is the involved suspect," he said.
Jowitt said a secondary threat was received at Noblesvilles High School. He called it a "communicated threat."

The middle school was on lockdown part of the morning, said Jackie Chatteron, a receptionist for the school district.

Aerial news video showed rows of students being evacuated and escorted to school buses.
Students were being taken to Noblesville High, where parents can pick them up, the state police said.

June 1 is the last day of school, according to the school's website.
The shooting comes a week after 10 people were killed at a school in Santa Fe, Texas.

There have been 23 school shootings where someone was hurt or killed so far this year -- an average of more than one shooting a week.

Noblesville is about 25 miles northeast of Indianapolis.
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Old 05-25-2018, 10:25 AM   #4
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Oh I skimmed through the article and missed the "male student taken into custody" part, my bad.

It sucks this keeps on happening in USA. I used to think it was strictly due to your gun laws... but in Europe we also have countries like Switzerland, Finland and Serbia where a lot of people own guns and this kind of stuff does not seem to happen, so there's probably a deeper reason for this issue.
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So I've watched some of April O'Neil's "videos." They were OK, the lesbian massage ones were the best ones. I skimmed through some of the others, but eh.

I've seen better.
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Old 05-25-2018, 10:42 AM   #5
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Oh I skimmed through the article and missed the "male student taken into custody" part, my bad.

It sucks this keeps on happening in USA. I used to think it was strictly due to your gun laws... but in Europe we also have countries like Switzerland, Finland and Serbia where a lot of people own guns and this kind of stuff does not seem to happen, so there's probably a deeper reason for this issue.
Yes, I think that's pretty astute. Every time you think you find an answer or solution, there's evidence of that one law or freedom working out just fine in another part of the world.

For instance, I'm pretty adamant that there needs to be greater gun control laws in the U.S., but just the other day, someone pointed out to me that Chicago has the strictest gun laws in the country, yet that is where the most homicides are at.
Now that reasoning could lean more towards the gang culture there, but it still doesn't support strong evidence for harsher gun laws in an argument.

So, perhaps it's an assortment of things leading to these tragedies. I'm starting to wonder if it mostly comes down to culture and mental illness.
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Old 05-25-2018, 10:44 AM   #6
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..so there's probably a deeper reason for this issue.
Yeah the U.S. leads the world in many categories. Some positive areas and some not worth boasting about. It would be interesting to see studies examining if one leading category effects the other. But then you’d find one paper stating something and another paper stating the opposite.
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Old 05-25-2018, 11:08 AM   #7
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For instance, I'm pretty adamant that there needs to be greater gun control laws in the U.S., but just the other day, someone pointed out to me that Chicago has the strictest gun laws in the country, yet that is where the most homicides are at.
Now that reasoning could lean more towards the gang culture there, but it still doesn't support strong evidence for harsher gun laws in an argument.

So, perhaps it's an assortment of things leading to these tragedies. I'm starting to wonder if it mostly comes down to culture and mental illness.
Chicago has the misfortune of being surrounded by areas with far more lax in the firearm regulation department. And why would those areas want to change their laws to match when there's money to be made.

Basically it's like saying vaccines don't work, because some people don't vaccinate their kids.

But I'm with you on the culture, but less so on the mental illness front.
Something needs to change, but...unless a way can be found that also makes money, those changes will never be implemented.

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Yeah the U.S. leads the world in many categories. Some positive areas and some not worth boasting about. It would be interesting to see studies examining if one leading category effects the other. But then you’d find one paper stating something and another paper stating the opposite.
It's really hard to study this sort of thing with any accuracy, because there's no way to test a hypothesis. And without something to test, we can only make correlations.
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Old 05-25-2018, 11:16 AM   #8
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What do you guys mean exactly by "culture" in this case? What is it about American culture in particular that might lead to these sort of shootings?

As for mental illness, I wonder if it's because healthcare costs a lot of money in your country, which means a lot of people don't get diagnosed or just get diagnosed by the time it's a bit too late? Or are school and work life there a bit stressful in comparison to other countries?
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So I've watched some of April O'Neil's "videos." They were OK, the lesbian massage ones were the best ones. I skimmed through some of the others, but eh.

I've seen better.
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Old 05-25-2018, 11:41 AM   #9
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Get rid of all the guns, and teach people to respect and empathize with other human beings.
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Old 05-25-2018, 11:57 AM   #10
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*sigh* Oh U.S....

I don't even know what to say at this point. Same story, different day, different school. Hope the injuries aren't life threatening.


I wish there was a better way for schools, friends, family, etc to in a sense red flag kids who are showing signs that something isn't right and then get them into something kind of like the Big Brothers Big Sisters of America program. Maybe a similar program in this country that willing good men could get involved to take on some seemingly troubled kid and help steer him in a better direction. And tailor it based on need, if a kid needs tough love/firm guidance OR if he needs a role model who will listen to him, sympathize, and help teach him better ways to handle rejection, etc. (And better yet if a guy is capable of both when appropriate and knows when either mode is needed.)



It's very sad that I just typed "list of school" into google and its first four suggestions all had the next word "shootings" or "shooter." (And another suggestion several down offered "massacres" instead.) Sure... I really was looking for a shootings list, and maybe it's a trending topic lately, but still. Fully half of what it suggested shouldn't have to be about murderous attacks on children when looking for basic school info.



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As for mental illness, I wonder if it's because healthcare costs a lot of money in your country, which means a lot of people don't get diagnosed or just get diagnosed by the time it's a bit too late?
Partly cost, but also partly access, and partly sigma. It's a fault many people are not going to want to admit, and seeking help is a form of admittance.

Even if someone has insurance that will cover it, the insurance company is still also very likely to decide you can only have THIS many visits with the therapist, which very well may not be anywhere near the amount some people need. They might limit what medications they cover. They might cover a psychologist, but not a psychiatrist...

Esp if someone is on Medicaid. Some states have a great program, but others are very bare bones and lacking. Someone who is too mentally ill to hold down a job is probably likely to be on Medicaid which may offer very little OR have nothing and lack any medical assistance all together, so then you've got some of the people who may MOST need treatment not getting anything at all.

As for school and work... well, like anywhere that's going to vary depending on the environment of any given place. I've had both good and bad in terms of both school and work environments.

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Old 05-25-2018, 12:46 PM   #11
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What do you guys mean exactly by "culture" in this case? What is it about American culture in particular that might lead to these sort of shootings?

As for mental illness, I wonder if it's because healthcare costs a lot of money in your country, which means a lot of people don't get diagnosed or just get diagnosed by the time it's a bit too late? Or are school and work life there a bit stressful in comparison to other countries?
I'm only hypothesizing, because my knowledge on the subject is decidedly limited.

But I suppose when I say "culture", I'm referring to the our values, what we choose to place on a pedestal, and our taboos. The sexual shame, the glorified weaponry, the celebrity obsession, and the stimulated rat race for money, popularity, and an insatiable desire to measure up to others. I think these feelings may lead to anger, depression, confusion, and insanity.

And again, maybe this is just my view on things. I could obviously be completely wrong. Just expressing my current view on things.
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Old 05-25-2018, 03:30 PM   #12
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Get rid of all the guns, and teach people to respect and empathize with other human beings.
The second part is theoretically possible, and something I'd love to see. You're absolutely dreaming about the first part.

Whenever someone gets hung up on some kind of utopian "But if only...!" nonsense about something that's not ever happening, it upsets me because it's time and energy wasted that could instead be focused on actual solutions.

Go outside, grab a ladder, and start painting the sky pink. You'll be finished with that long before anyone "gets rid of all the guns". Don't even waste the time thinking about it.

Now, raising kids to value human life, to FEAR guns and the damage they can do to themselves and other people, to have empathy, and to NOT think that the appropriate reaction to being teased is to kill someone? I'm all-in on that. 100%.

Whenever *I* say, "Let's just get rid of all the drugs" - and I do, loud and often - people tell me I'm a wacko. Well, drugs kill FAR more people than guns, and that includes children. But people like drugs! They WANT drugs! They don't like or want guns, so that's an "acceptable" type of prohibition. Except it doesn't work! Even I understand that as much as I want it to happen, even if we started executing drug dealers as a deterrent, drugs are never going away. And it's not even a conversation anyone wants to have - even though, statistically, both in America and globally, drugs are a WAY bigger problem than guns. But people want to get high, and they're pretty sure they're the ONE person who's figured out how to be a junkie and not a scumbag at the same time - hah! - so they just lean on how "You're never getting rid of drugs" and cry about "personal freedom" (but NEVER Personal Responsibility).

Okay. Well we're never getting rid of guns, either. So let's simply not waste the time on "I wish."

Kids right now believe that if someone teases you, you hurt them. That's the problem. It's a damaged kind of thinking that needs to be rewired. Until we do that, nothing changes. You can't ignore a kid's emotional problems and then pull the "Not MY little angel" garbage, as has become the new standard. Every time this happens it turns out that NOBODY was keeping a close eye on these kids or intervening on their behalf - not parents, not teachers, not guidance counselors. Partly because they're told to stay out of it - but that's not working.

One of my clients is an elementary school teacher, and just yesterday was telling me how kids today are completely convinced everything they think and feel is correct, and you can't tell them otherwise. And if they start having behavioral problems, the school says you can't do anything but call the parents, who always, ALWAYS pull the "Not My Angel" sh*t, and accuse the teacher of being inattentive or not giving their kid 100% exclusive attention at the expense of everyone else, despite the fact they're not a babysitter or a counselor, they're just a teacher.

I've worked with several teachers over the last ten years and this isn't a new story. Most of them are also parents. I hear the same things, always: "Nobody's raising these kids right, they have no respect, no discipline, no empathy, they all want to be told they're perfect and special and they're never, ever wrong. And if they are, expect an angry phone call from Mommy and Daddy."

And people wonder why they pick up a gun when they don't get their way, or someone teases them.

But if we're not gonna talk about what's ACTUALLY going on, and get hung up on fairy tales, we may as well get used to this being a weekly thing.
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Old 05-26-2018, 10:38 PM   #13
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Kids right now believe that if someone teases you, you hurt them. That's the problem. It's a damaged kind of thinking that needs to be rewired. Until we do that, nothing changes. You can't ignore a kid's emotional problems and then pull the "Not MY little angel" garbage, as has become the new standard. Every time this happens it turns out that NOBODY was keeping a close eye on these kids or intervening on their behalf - not parents, not teachers, not guidance counselors. Partly because they're told to stay out of it - but that's not working.

One of my clients is an elementary school teacher, and just yesterday was telling me how kids today are completely convinced everything they think and feel is correct, and you can't tell them otherwise. And if they start having behavioral problems, the school says you can't do anything but call the parents, who always, ALWAYS pull the "Not My Angel" sh*t, and accuse the teacher of being inattentive or not giving their kid 100% exclusive attention at the expense of everyone else, despite the fact they're not a babysitter or a counselor, they're just a teacher.

I've worked with several teachers over the last ten years and this isn't a new story. Most of them are also parents. I hear the same things, always: "Nobody's raising these kids right, they have no respect, no discipline, no empathy, they all want to be told they're perfect and special and they're never, ever wrong. And if they are, expect an angry phone call from Mommy and Daddy."

And people wonder why they pick up a gun when they don't get their way, or someone teases them.

But if we're not gonna talk about what's ACTUALLY going on, and get hung up on fairy tales, we may as well get used to this being a weekly thing.
You described children and parents in general. Most parents whether in 2018 or 1918 or further back always think of their children as perfect and would't think of them doing heinous stuff, as for "Kids right now believe that if someone teases you, you hurt them." yeah thats been children since the dawn of human civilization have you never seen a child bullying another.

You make it sound like kids doing ****ed up **** is a new phenomenon when its been happening for years

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-styl...lery-1.2774675
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Old 05-27-2018, 01:10 PM   #14
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You and I have been over this and you're not bringing anything new.

What's happening on a constant basis NOW, has NOT been happening for years.

Aside from a few isolated instances - and those events described in the link were exactly that, and mostly treated as such at the time they happened - kids were not making it a repeated habit of shooting up schools until a point within the last two decades.

I asked you repeatedly in another thread what point it is you're trying to make. You didn't answer.

Is it "sh*t's always been f*cked up"? If so, I agree to a point but it still has nothing at all to do with MY point. Which is, "Mass school shootings are a relatively new phenomenon."

Frankly, you sound like a young person who's offended by the fact that I make generalized statements about "young people" and their lack of proper upbringing. If so... tough.

If not... I have no idea what point you're trying to make.
--------------

It's like some kid on a friend's FB page, who tried to argue kids eating live goldfish "back in the day" was equatable with school shootings (and the other dumb sh*t kids do now) as "proof" that "kids have always done stupid sh*t!" Ummm... that's the kind of a reach even Plastic Man would struggle with.

Unless you can argue and PROVE that mass school shootings were a common, near-weekly event BEFORE 1998, you have no case. I don't want to hear "people have always been stupid." No sh*t, they also used to have basic human decency empathy and now they don't. Shifting the argument away from one point and into another one doesn't make you "right".

Jesus.
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Old 05-27-2018, 01:20 PM   #15
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Goldfish eating is more comparable to the Tide Pod challenge, anyway. The only person that gets hurt/killed in those situations is by the person doing it due to their own lack of common sense.

People aren't going around stuffing goldfish down others' throats in schools.
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Old 05-28-2018, 06:42 AM   #16
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We should really be investigating exactly how and where these boys were radicalized.
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Old 05-28-2018, 04:25 PM   #17
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Surely a big part of it is the more insidious side of the wonderful invention known as the internet.

Something to the tune of "I feel rejected, ostracized, mad at the world, etc... I think I'll go let my mind be influenced by online communities that will validate my feelings and make it worse, even pushing me to act in violence against others and then cheer me as a hero when I do..."

Something I was reading after that last Texas shooting said those online communities didn't seem to be rushing to embrace the kid that did that one since he didn't die and was "too attractive" in their view. Talk about warped... I can't even imagine wanting to be part of a community that would be eager to hail you as a hero upon your death via mass murder. Wtf. Too far gone if that isn't a huge turn off.
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:20 PM   #18
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You and I have been over this and you're not bringing anything new.

What's happening on a constant basis NOW, has NOT been happening for years.

Aside from a few isolated instances - and those events described in the link were exactly that, and mostly treated as such at the time they happened - kids were not making it a repeated habit of shooting up schools until a point within the last two decades.

I asked you repeatedly in another thread what point it is you're trying to make. You didn't answer..
If 5 people are shooting up schools then in a two decade time frame then its not a repeated habit. And the point I'm trying to make its unfair to say "this generation is bad or have changed values" because 4 people did something bad.

Is it "sh*t's always been f*cked up"? If so, I agree to a point but it still has nothing at all to do with MY point. Which is, "Mass school shootings are a relatively new phenomenon."

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It's like some kid on a friend's FB page, who tried to argue kids eating live goldfish "back in the day" was equatable with school shootings (and the other dumb sh*t kids do now) as "proof" that "kids have always done stupid sh*t!" Ummm... that's the kind of a reach even Plastic Man would struggle with.
Yeah hence why I showed you examples of kids killing other kids not children doing drag racing.

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Unless you can argue and PROVE that mass school shootings were a common, near-weekly event BEFORE 1998, you have no case. I don't want to hear "people have always been stupid."
Jesus.
What difference does it make if it is a school shooting or serial killing, people are getting hurt regardless again you complain that values have changed but the only thing you are worried about is the different method.

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No sh*t, they also used to have basic human decency empathy and now they don't. Shifting the argument away from one point and into another one doesn't make you "right".
This almost gave me a brain anyresum, you are pretty much saying that this generation is nothing bunch of rude sociopaths but there are still millions of teenagers who don't shoot up schools and can take rejection well. You know why I defend this generation despite not being a part of it is because I actually have empathy, I don't like it when people back my generation under a bus and I sure as hell don't like it when people like you say that the newest generation doesn't have any empathy. You spout out things like "Human Decency" but seeing how you are ready to crap on an entire group of people just because a few bad apples you missed the part of judging others as individuals not as groups and not judging a group by a few bad apples
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Old 05-29-2018, 07:35 AM   #19
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I don't believe that kids have changed. I don't believe we've had an increase in mental illness, even though we have an increase in the names and treatments for mental illness.

Kids have always been mean, the mentally ill have always existed, what has changed is access. Be that access to frearms, be that access to information, or be that access to environments that radicalize young men.

If this were only about bullying we would see more marginalized people taking up arms against the classmates. But we're not seeing a bunch of queer kids, a bunch of teen girls, or the one or two black kids in a mostly white school, taking up arms against the classmates.

I think what we're seeing are the boys who would have gone unnoticed because the only people they would have been beating on were their family members or their significant others.

But I will say this for Leo's assessment of the situation, that is how whole bad apples thing works. A few bad apples spoil the bunch. The whole is ruined because of the resting state of a few, is literally what that aphorism means.
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Old 05-29-2018, 09:10 PM   #20
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You described children and parents in general. Most parents whether in 2018 or 1918 or further back always think of their children as perfect and would't think of them doing heinous stuff, as for "Kids right now believe that if someone teases you, you hurt them." yeah thats been children since the dawn of human civilization have you never seen a child bullying another.

You make it sound like kids doing ****ed up **** is a new phenomenon when its been happening for years

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-styl...lery-1.2774675
I have to partially disagree with this. Back in the day, seems parents like the ones you described was moreso the exception, not the norm. Nowadays, seems kids can do no wrong and whenever complaints are made, the parents blame the teachers as opposed to their kid. Seems years ago, kids were taught that there are consequences for actions, not everything is handed to you, personal responsibility, etc.

Kids acting in the way mentioned isn't a new thing, but how they're handling it seems to be a new thing...technically.
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