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Old 05-20-2018, 10:52 PM   #61
Andrew NDB
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Originally Posted by Leo656 View Post
But also, Texas. Let's be honest, those people would still call black people "N-Word (First Name)" if they could get away with it.
Well, that's not fair. I am friends with a lot of Texans who would never do that. Is there a large population of Texas that would? Sure. Same as if you were to go to Eastern Washington.
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Old 05-20-2018, 11:36 PM   #62
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No its bad example on your part because New York has strict gun laws so unless you support more strcter gun laws I doubt you want to use New York as an example. Also again its just a 2 month period and if you look at it year by year London tends to have less murders than New York so lets wait until 2018 ends before we start comparing cities
I am not sure how much more clear I make this a metropolis the size of New York that allows citizens to legally own and possess guns has less murders than a city of equal size that has a zero tolerance and complete ban of guns!!!!! I would use a different city, but New York is the best example, bc of the population size is almost as exact as London. It increases the "internal validity" of the argument and sense that has happened across multiple months now that means the statistics are not "Out Liars" or statistical anomalies.

You can keep say it is not, but the facts say other wise...

here is also further proof that the argument that lax gun laws are the reason for higher homicide rates are false

https://bismarcktribune.com/news/nat...0bda8e.html#29

2 of the 3 top cities on this list have some of the toughest gun laws and other cities such as Oakland California, Washington DC and Chicago are also on that list, but despite having the toughest gun laws they have higher homicide rates than cities with lax gun laws like in Alaska or Wyoming

In fact here is how bad Chicago is
https://qz.com/1086403/fbi-crime-sta...to-do-with-it/
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Old 05-20-2018, 11:58 PM   #63
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Well, that's not fair. I am friends with a lot of Texans who would never do that. Is there a large population of Texas that would? Sure. Same as if you were to go to Eastern Washington.
General statements are General. It's still one of the most racist states in the country by far, anecdotal evidence aside.

Powder: You may very well be right.

PApagreg: There was nothing "Beyond Retarded" about anything I've said. If you're not going to offer anything productive, I'm going to disregard anything you say going forward. Nothing you have offered to the thread in any way disproves or counters any of the points I've offered. What point ARE you trying to make, anyway?

I'm not trying to be argumentative with you; I've pointed out the fact that school-based mass shootings have skyrocketed over a period of 20 years or so, and pointed out other factors that also shot up within that same time frame, and am pointing out how they may very likely be connected. You've said... people have always been mean to each other in different ways, I think? What does that have to do with my points, exactly?

We agree that violence in reaction to disappointment is not new. However, aside from that, I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Are you saying school shootings have always been a thing? They haven't. Are you saying teenagers have always reacted to rejection by slaughtering their peers en masse? They haven't. These ARE New Ideas, and I'm interested in finding out What The F*ck Got Us Here. Because otherwise, we ain't fixing it.

Please make your points more clear, and refrain from saying things like "beyond retarded" to factually-provable statements. Thanks.
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Old 05-21-2018, 03:15 AM   #64
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Yes, I have to agree with Leo. Mass shootings as a whole have gone up since the 1950s, steadily and then seemingly exponentially in the last 10-15 years, but up until Columbine really, the concept of shooting in a school was almost unheard of, certainly that's the first time such an incident made the news here in the UK. And now look where we are today... the night club shooting in Florida, the festival shooting from a hotel in Vegas, and several school shootings with multiple casualties, most caused by schoolkids, or people who used to go to the school.

As noted, most of the regulations put on the table to try to resolve or present such actions would not have prevented things here in Texas. Neither would it for Sandy Hook, as the guy took his uncle's weapons. Most mass shootings are carried out with legally held weapons, either the shooter's own, or belonging to someone they know. What needs to happen is for tighter regulations to keep a weapon in the first place (and if you think the laws are strict in some parts of the US, come to Europe and check ours out) and for people to have better weapon storing policies and rules. I know many responsible gun owners have their weapons in hard to access locations, and I applaud them for that, because that needs to happen for everyone imo.
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Old 05-21-2018, 03:39 AM   #65
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It's gonna get "better". Just wait.

From 1999:


I know it technically happened already, once. But now that it's on the table and established as an option, there will be copycats, just as there are in school shootings.

Part of the reason mass shootings are "mass" is because of the attention that goes with it - keeping in mind these people are more than willing to settle for the absolute worst kind of attention, so long as attention is being paid to them. Otherwise, if they were that unhappy they'd just kill themselves. Anyways. Best way to get attention? Kill lots of people at once. Best way to kill lots of people at once? Attack when everyone's vulnerable and not expecting it. Best places to do that? Places where "You'd have to be CRAZY to even THINK of doing that!" Like schools. And churches.

Now that it's been established, it's going to happen more often. Geez, remember when it was "just" the postal workers, and everyone was so easily able to laugh it off like it WASN'T horrifying? Wasn't even that long ago.

...You can tell, I just have buckets of faith in humanity. Barrels, even.
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Old 05-21-2018, 06:51 AM   #66
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I've been seeing the suggestion that rather than naming the shooter, we should be referring to them by a number.
So that way they don't get the glory, and infamy, that come with such an act.

That's what we did with the Marathon bombing guys. I couldn't really tell you their names, but if you say suspect number one or suspect number 2 in Boston, we know exactly who you're talking about.
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:03 AM   #67
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I am not sure how much more clear I make this a metropolis the size of New York that allows citizens to legally own and possess guns has less murders than a city of equal size that has a zero tolerance and complete ban of guns!!!!! I would use a different city, but New York is the best example, bc of the population size is almost as exact as London. It increases the "internal validity" of the argument and sense that has happened across multiple months now that means the statistics are not "Out Liars" or statistical anomalies.

You can keep say it is not, but the facts say other wise...
Okay have you heard of a thing called "nuance" New York isn't just a place where citizens can "legally own and possess guns" there is more to it than that, it also has one of the strictest gun laws in the country sitting at number 4 and seeing how you are against have stricter gun laws its a bad example on your point. Do you want stricter gun laws for this country?

https://www.deseretnews.com/top/1428...-gun-laws.html

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here is also further proof that the argument that lax gun laws are the reason for higher homicide rates are false

https://bismarcktribune.com/news/nat...0bda8e.html#29

2 of the 3 top cities on this list have some of the toughest gun laws and other cities such as Oakland California, Washington DC and Chicago are also on that list, but despite having the toughest gun laws they have higher homicide rates than cities with lax gun laws like in Alaska or Wyoming

In fact here is how bad Chicago is
https://qz.com/1086403/fbi-crime-sta...to-do-with-it/
Ill give you Wyoming and Chicago but if you look at it state by state you would know that Alaska has a higher murder rate than California also the number 1 city is from a state that has lax gun control laws so again not helping your argument there.

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-...ally-and-state

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Originally Posted by Leo656
Or else it's cutting/self-mutilation, or whatever. All of this is relatively new, and it's being taught to them somehow. For hundreds of years, people didn't act this way, and now they do.
Self Mutilation isn't a new thing, in fact it can be found far back in Ancient Greece where a Spartan leader was sent to the stocks for "strange behavior" and a serf noticed he was cutting himself.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/...toryId=4697319

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PApagreg: There was nothing "Beyond Retarded" about anything I've said. If you're not going to offer anything productive, I'm going to disregard anything you say going forward. Nothing you have offered to the thread in any way disproves or counters any of the points I've offered. What point ARE you trying to make, anyway?

You've said... people have always been mean to each other in different ways, I think? What does that have to do with my points, exactly? Are you saying school shootings have always been a thing? They haven't. Are you saying teenagers have always reacted to rejection by slaughtering their peers en masse?
There has been a total of three teenagers who shot up a school because of some form of rejection so its not like "values have changed" because most people today including teenagers still think school shootings are wrong and can healthy handle rejection and disappointment. Its like me looking at Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy and thinking "wow there must have been something wrong with people in the 70s, they should learn not to hurt people" generalizing today's teenagers and calling them "brittle" just because of what a total of three people did is not only stupid but very insulting hence why I said "it is beyond retarded"
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:14 AM   #68
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Yes, I have to agree with Leo. Mass shootings as a whole have gone up since the 1950s, steadily and then seemingly exponentially in the last 10-15 years, but up until Columbine really, the concept of shooting in a school was almost unheard of
Yep. For decades and decades, too, we even had fully-automatic weapons completely legal and far, far less gun control laws and yet... no school shootings (there even used to be things like "Gun Club" in school, and students could openly bring guns to class). Not one. Yet now, in 2018, where automatic weapons have been illegal for a couple of decades now and there is 1,000% more gun control laws in the same amount of time... now the problem and solution to recent school shootings must be guns and their removal/further gun legislature?

Bullsh**.
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:47 AM   #69
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Yep. For decades and decades, too, we even had fully-automatic weapons completely legal and far, far less gun control laws and yet... no school shootings (there even used to be things like "Gun Club" in school, and students could openly bring guns to class). Not one. Yet now, in 2018, where automatic weapons have been illegal for a couple of decades now and there is 1,000% more gun control laws in the same amount of time... now the problem and solution to recent school shootings must be guns and their removal/further gun legislature?

Bullsh**.
You're right Andrew its not like other developed countries with stricter gun laws like Japan, Britain, France, Germany or etc have little to no school shooting. Hell even Canada which does have school shootings from time to time doesn't get as bad as the United States
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Old 05-21-2018, 11:05 AM   #70
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Snip

Honest question: How old are you?

You defend this generation as if you're a part of it. Are you? If so, it would explain your vehement defense of the clearly indefensible.

They are brittle. They shoot at people because someone teased them. They skip school to stomp around and yell at people when they don't get their way. They demand that scholars and academics be banned or disinvited from speaking at colleges if their opinion doesn't fit the accepted Liberal/Progressive Narrative. And if those people are allowed to speak, they march around and shout over them so they're technically NOT being allowed to speak anyway. They demand that everyone has to respect their "free speech" and opinions, but they don't have to respect anyone else's. They commit suicide because someone made fun of them on Facebook. They put every minute of their lives on social media in a transparently desperate bid for attention. They say that taking away someone's legally-owned property is okay, as long as that property is a gun, but they will literally break down in tears if someone gives them a transparent backpack in a laughable attempt at "safety". They eat f*cking laundry detergent.

Enough with this sh*t. They ARE brittle. And ignorant. And entitled. You don't see it? Then go the f*ck outside.

Unless you yourself are under-21. In which case, you have a lot to learn.

If you honestly don't think this generation is dumber than the last, then why wasn't the last generation snorting f*cking condoms?

These kids are cracked, collectively. Maybe not every single one of them, no. But collectively, they're a batch of eggs that should've been sat on longer. Ask anyone who runs a business, who's in the unenviable position of having to interview one of these little nitwits for a job. They all want $15-20 and hour and full benefits before they can legally drink, and they pitch a f*cking fit when you tell them life doesn't work that way.

I'm sure a few of them will go on to accomplish great things; that's just math. But you'd have to ignore a LOT to say, with a straight face, "There's nothing wrong with the current generation of young people." Yes, yes there is. If you don't see it, it's probably because you're simply too young to see it. Or you're just bad at recognizing behavioral patterns. I don't know.

I know it's DEFINITELY been more than just three people. The Las Vegas thing was a weird outlier, but in most mass shootings in high schools, colleges, movie theaters, and that church incident, from Columbine until today, the shooter was almost ALWAYS someone who was young, had been "picked on", who had a history of mental illness and long-term medication, and their family life wasn't stable. So I don't know where you get "three people" from, or how you don't see clearly-established patterns in the "Why" of it all.

It's almost like when people get so hung up on guns, they forget everything else. That "everything else" is WHY they pick up a gun in the first place, so it's actually way, way more important in the big picture. Seriously.
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Old 05-21-2018, 12:10 PM   #71
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Okay have you heard of a thing called "nuance" New York isn't just a place where citizens can "legally own and possess guns" there is more to it than that, it also has one of the strictest gun laws in the country sitting at number 4 and seeing how you are against have stricter gun laws its a bad example on your point. Do you want stricter gun laws for this country?
I don't understand you post "Nuance" by definition is a subtle shade/deviation, not the drastically difference as a city or laws you are claiming New York to be. I don't think you are using the word correctly
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Old 05-21-2018, 12:21 PM   #72
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I don't think exercising one's First Amendment rights, nor demanding a living wage to be a sign of generational fragility.

I mean, let's not forget the grown-ass men in polo shirts and tiki torches protesting the removal of participation trophy monuments while chanting, You Will Not Replace Us.

People sending death threats to creators because they don't like their work, or to critics because the said mean things about a videogame.

Or mowing people down with their car in Canada because they're not having the sex they believe they're owed.

The boys in high school now grew up under Reddit and GamerDorf. If anything they're following the lead of the adults who came before them.
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Old 05-21-2018, 12:53 PM   #73
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Using snorting condoms as one of the measurements as "that generation is broken y'all" might not be the best idea, cause I remember vividly that being a thing among teens as a child and when I was a teen myself. And each generation have several things they did that was dumb, it's just more oscure for the willfully ignorant when it's not so readily available on the internet compared to the previous 2-3 gens.

My dad's gen was all over that nunchaku Bruce Lee trend, and Rambo knives was the ****. There's a reason why nunchaku are illegal in several countries.
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Old 05-21-2018, 01:53 PM   #74
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Yeah, people have been doing stupid and dangerous trends for a while now.



Young people are always gonna dumb no matter the decade, but the modern age has created some new edges to it because of social media.

(Ha, TMNT is on the BadFads site under the "collectibles" category)
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Old 05-21-2018, 01:57 PM   #75
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It's almost like people forgot exactly how popular jackass was for Gen xers.
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:23 PM   #76
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Well, that's not fair. I am friends with a lot of Texans who would never do that. Is there a large population of Texas that would? Sure. Same as if you were to go to Eastern Washington.
I've lived in a number of places, including Texas. I heard the N-bomb dropped way more in Westminster Maryland than I ever did when I lived in Dallas, or Austin.

People keep thinking this is a gun control debate, it isn't. This entire situation could've been resolved with civility. This kid asked a girl out, and instead of just rejecting him (who hasn't been there), she apparently made fun of him over an extended period of time because of his advances. Hell, Emma Gonzales admitted that she bullied Nick Cruz. The problem with these shootings is that kids are bullied and don't have a healthy outlet to deal with that, so they end up doing the unthinkable. There are too many assholes out there that think they have a right to **** on other people for whatever reason. They don't, and until people figure out that you have to be civil (especially kids) this **** will continue. You could make every gun illegal and this would still happen.

Before anyone jumps on me: No, I'm in now way condoning these school shootings. They're horrible events that should never happen, but we REALLY need to aim a microscope at why they keep happening. It's not the video games, it's not the violent music, it's the little turds who are self-absorbed and think they have a right to make fun of others.

This kid in texas had bombs, so no amount of gun bans would have done anything in this situation. He was determined to hurt people.

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You're right Andrew its not like other developed countries with stricter gun laws like Japan, Britain, France, Germany or etc have little to no school shooting. Hell even Canada which does have school shootings from time to time doesn't get as bad as the United States
There are a ton of reasons those countries don't have the gun problem we do in the US. I could name a few, but I'll stick with the reasons Australia and Japan don't have them. One, they're islands; Two, Australia does still have gun violence. Oh, and London has recently had a sharp upturn in gun violence, but I won't go into the reason why that is happening because it doesn't fit within the scope of this conversation.

Japan, in particular, is a really bad example to use as a means of saying that we shouldn't have guns. There are so many reasons they're a unique situation when it comes to discussing guns and violence.
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Old 05-21-2018, 04:04 PM   #77
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I don't think exercising one's First Amendment rights, nor demanding a living wage to be a sign of generational fragility.
On Day One. With no life or "real" work experience. They deserve the same as someone who's put time in every day for ten or more years. "Because they want it and therefore deserve it."

No, that's not how any of this works. Nor should it ever.

I've been at my current job for nearly ten years. My boss is super-strict about hiring people, as this business is highly competitive. Most kids under 25 who call for work, the first question they ask is "What can you pay me?" He doesn't call them back and throws their resumes in the trash. Because before they even talk about what experience or credentials they have, or what they can provide to our company, so we can continue operating and marketing ourselves as a high-level, Gold-standard operation, all they want to talk about, right from the start, is "What can YOU do for ME?" Right out of school, no experience in the field, but someone told them they CAN make $50,000 a year or so, thus, they feel that they deserve all that simply by showing up. And they're aghast when someone tells them to hit the bricks and try Dairy Queen instead.

It's not at all the same as the topic, BUT, it is an example of the entitlement that permeates the current crop. It's not THAT different from, "This girl didn't like me, I'm gonna shoot her." Obviously, it IS dramatically different in one sense; in another, broader sense, it's still, "I want something. The fact that I want it, means I deserve it. If I don't get it, it's someone else's fault, and they're gonna be sorry."

During my time in the wrestling business (my "other job"), one thing that was reinforced on the daily, over and over again, is "This life doesn't owe you sh*t, and this business definitely doesn't owe you sh*t. You put work in, you elevate if you deserve it. If you don't deserve it, you don't get booked. If your attitude sucks, you won't get booked. If you act like you deserve a 'spot' just for walking in the door, you don't get booked again EVER. Working, and being paid, is a privilege, NOT a right."

And that's the truth! It's always been the truth! But now, because it's "hard" and "unfair", people demand everything handed to them immediately upon graduating. Someone told them they can get a Free Ride at life. Like I said in an earlier post, when you lie to kids like that, and tell them someone's always gonna give them everything they want, you're gonna get a group of entitled, self-absorbed "kids" instead of grown-ups.

It would be nice if everyone everywhere had enough cash in their pockets to get by, yeah. I've been poor on-and-off more often than most people, it sucks. But that's life. You swim harder to reach the shore, or you drown. You don't go around demanding life preservers just because you were born.

Now, have I met and worked with kids (meaning under-25) who were hard-working go-getters, eager to put in the work and patiently climb the ladder? Absolutely! But even they'll tell you, they are the exception and not the rule.

Perhaps other people have had different experience working with and dealing with the younger crowd. But this is MY experience, and it's been consistent.
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So far, I like this BartAllen guy. That's odd, because I generally hate everyone. Just something about the logic, I'unno. He's pretty quick.

..."Fastest Man Alive"...? Hmmm... I'unno. But so far, so good.
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Old 05-21-2018, 04:27 PM   #78
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the first question they ask is "What can you pay me?"
Doesn't seem unreasonable to ask what the pay is, especially if it's in a place/country/state that don't have proper livable minimum wage laws. If the job don't pay the bills it ain't worth having.
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Old 05-21-2018, 04:46 PM   #79
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I agree, but there's standard "Job Application Etiquette" to consider. You're at an audition. You're selling yourself. If the first words out of your mouth are, "So what can YOU do for me?" it comes across as entirely self-serving.

Again, in case I haven't made it clear in the past, I have worked hand-in-hand with owner/operator-level management at almost every job I ever had. I repeat what THEY say they look for and grade on when screening applicants (and why they reject people).

Moving/Warehouse business: "These kids want everything for nothing."
Wrestling business: "These kids wants everything for nothing."
Fitness Industry: "These kids want everything for nothing."

ABSOLUTELY, look for the money you feel you deserve, but DON'T walk in the door making unreasonable requests right out of the gate, or expecting to get the dollar figure you had your heart set on if you have no experience in the field (or if you got fired from your last job). Don't even TALK about money until the person screening you brings it up; that ball is in their court, not yours.

You're one of many, MANY people trying to get a spot when there are more people than spots. That gives the applicant ZERO leverage; thus, you simply DON'T walk in the door talking about money before you've explained to them why they need you, or how you can benefit them. They're running a business, not a charity.

Not for nothing, but over the years here I've noticed that a lot of people have had hard times getting and sustaining work. I don't know anyone on this forum well enough to say so for certain, but it *could* have to do with what I've gone over above.

Then again, I've only been working steady since I was 17, quickly moved up the ladder at every job I've had since I was 18, and haven't kept a job for less than 8 years since then. Maybe I don't know? Or maybe, just maybe, I do.

Everyone needs money. But don't overshoot when you're not established. That gets you nowhere. It's become more and more common as kids get more and more entitled. That's all I'm saying.
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Old 05-21-2018, 04:48 PM   #80
Andrew NDB
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Shootings have been... going down?

https://mises.org/wire/there-are-few...w-during-1990s
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