Peter Laird addresses the tones & remastering issues

[gobo]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

From TMNT Vol. 4, #29's lettercol:

[etc]

Yikes! People have been telling me he has gotten derrogatory in the letters column, but I always thought they were exaggerating. As upset as I'm sure he is, I'm disturbed by the... lack of finesse here.

I remain neutral on the issue as I already have a Collected Book 1 and don't care if future generations are only allowed low-res scans for free on the internet or buying Volume 1 "Special Edition" trades. My only concern is that there should be better ways to reach a compromise (whatever that might be) than mud-slinging (my main gripe about politics).

But, if you guys/gals want to go at it over such a trivial issue, I can't stop you. It's your prerogative... and I don't give a dang... Seriously... I don't.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Originally Posted by odupianist

I agree Putrescent, but PL might see this as more reason to stick with selling them online because he's probably making more money. While I agree we all have to make money, I think he's losing buyers by not making it accessible to everyone, not everyone has a credit card/paypal, not having enough, etc. Any idea how many issues used to go out when they sent them to the comic book stores? Definitely more than 1000 right?

I'm curious as to why TMNT volume 4 started to tank in comic stores. Is it just because TMNT as a whole wasn't selling, or was it because people didn't feel like picking up issues for that storyline anymore?

I would think that the original comics would have an easier time selling than volume 4. I'm sure potential readers would have been turned off by this really out there storyline that they can't possibly understand unless they track down everything else, and at the same time you had certain hardcore fans that were turning away because they didn't like the storyline. I'm not bashing the storyline, I'm just saying those could be reasons why it wasn't selling and why they may have better luck with reprints.

[Newton Gimmick]

I doubt this will make Peter keep putting TMNT vol 4 out in a physical form. All it will likely do is mean he may do more short run books, with hand drawn turtles and sigs again and that's fine with me.

TMNT had the same problem it always had, it's a independant comic living in a Marvel/DC world. My LCS would only get in a few issues, wouldn't reorder more (Even though they would sell out) and that was that. I think the fact that it was taking so long to get them out didn't help and I'm sure some people were turned off by the storyline as well.

But generally, sales across the board for comics can be very whack and a B&W book in the 1980's was one thing, it's a much, much harder sell these days and there are even more comics flooding the market, sadly.

[turkishproverb]

I don't know about that, volume 1 collected book 1 would probably sell extremely well. Its like how Detective 27 has been in print for a good while despite major weaknesses.

Really, all he'd have to do is actually get a book distributer to carry the trade. It'd sell at a decent clip same as most of these things.

The rest of the series would probably get a little trouble, hard to say, but the origin issues? Probably sell better than the Essential spiderman books. And besides that, they would probably do better than Cerebus numbers, and those books have been in continuous print (and pretty profitable according to Sim)

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Originally Posted by turkishproverb

I don't know about that, volume 1 collected book 1 would probably sell extremely well. Its like how Detective 27 has been in print for a good while despite major weaknesses.

Just curious as to what the weaknesses are considered to be. Yeah, the Batman in that story is quite a bit different, but that was the first appearance of the character and they had yet to flesh him out and the character hadn't evolved into the Batman we know and love today. Plus the writing style was probably just the norm in those times. I like taking a look back at times when comics were a bit simpler, and when these characters were first created.

[MrPliggins]

I've never read Detective 27, but somewhere I have a reprint of Amazing Fantasy #15 that even has the original advertisements reprinted! Now that's a reprint...!

[Triglyph]

Originally Posted by Mr._Mutant_Man

I'm curious as to why TMNT volume 4 started to tank in comic stores. Is it just because TMNT as a whole wasn't selling, or was it because people didn't feel like picking up issues for that storyline anymore?

I will post someting to the effect of what I was going to post earlier...Not to single you out like I am arguing, but that question is a good spring board...

Bascially volume four never sold well...but I will go into a little backstory here...

The comic industry is in the toilet, plain and simple...and turtles is not currently (and hasn't been for some time) a big seller. I say this as a fan so don't jump on my case here...these are the sales numbers for the industry, as much as I may not like it. Very little of this post is opinion based. This is just staight up numbers, economics, and costs of doing business...

http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/12242.html

Even the top sellers each month, when you look at actual sales, are getting around 100,000 copies sold...and it just goes down, QUICKLY, from there. At this point, selling 5,000 books is a lot for most publishers. A 5,000 copy print run is kind of a golden number in comics now. Alot of people at the indy level are excited if they can get enough orders to be distributed through diamond (requires a minimum of around 1000 books)...and let me add, there is some AMAZING stuff being done, so its not the quality. You really need to print 5,000 to get a good printing price...Bacially printing 1,000 books may cost $1.50 a book. Printing 2,500 books might cost $1 a book. Its all about printing enough to get the cost low enough so that when you add on cost of producing the art, you can still have a reasonable cover price. If you can sell 2,500 books, you can break even on the cost of printing (not the cost of story/art production). Sell 5000 and you're making some money...some money. Enough to pay for all production if you keep a tight budget. No one is going to be "printing money", but if you hit that golden number and your stuff is selling, you can continue to put out more issues without going bankrupt. You can only do it as a hobby for so long, at a loss, before the numbers catch up to you...that being said...

The last issue of volume four $28 didn't sell much differently than tales sells today and since today is today (and we're talking about what mirage is doing now), I will use current numbers.

Tales of the TMNT number 43 only sold 2,551 copies!!!! That made it Number 283 on the list of the top 300 books in february 2008. Mirage literally gets 40% of the cover price given to them-this is just the reality of the diamond distribution and current direct market retail system. If you're going through diamond, there is no way around that. The book sells for $3.25 cover...So mirage is getting $1.30. Out of that $1.30, are the printing costs (about 50 cents a book if you print 5,000) and actual production of the content (writing, pencils, inks, "coloring"/shading, lettering)...

If they print 5000 books at a price of 50 cents a book, they're in the hole for $2500 on physical product. I don't know who is creating the story and art, but my assumption is they're not doing it for free...It gets to the point where you're splitting hairs and adding half-cents to see if any profit is made...and if its a business, you need to at least make back all costs to be able to continue to release new product.

...

Now, I imagine people will say that interest has dipped...and it has...but not as much as you might think: http://67.192.23.170/articles/news/912.html
December 2001, 146th on the list. TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES #1 $2.95 cover price...only 11,501 copies sold....which is suprising to me. The top book that month was DARK KNIGHT STRIKES AGAIN #1 (Of 3) $7.95 cover and sold 174,339 copies.

So its really not that turtles dropped off at some point during volume four...if you look at the sales, volume four didn't every really get off to a huge start.

The current comic martket is a TOUGH market to be in. It is shocking to me that turtles, which I would expect to be selling MUCH higher, isn't. Even the first issue, I expected would be in that 50,000 copies range...This is the reality though. My hat is off to Mirage for seeing a problem and wanting to put out new stories with a new distribution method. If doing online distribution and intentional limited print runs (albeit more expensive print cover prices) is the way they can continue to put out content, I am all for it.

Reading online, I see comments a lot of people with opinions based on no facts who have suggestions on what mirage should do, but when you crunch the numbers, its clear they don't have much room to try new things before the costs outweigh the benefits, at least in a business sense.

Getting more into the opinion section of the post, I can see how mirage is putting this stuff out at a loss to give fans more stories in a traiditional format. Hopefully they can re-use those stories in the future somehow to recoup costs. Without the money earned on various licensing programs, toys, cartoons, movie, video games, etc, I don't think we'd be seeing volume four. When you look at only the numbers, mirage, if it was any other publisher, wouldn't be able to put out these comics when they see such low sales...and again, the quality is great...its just the comic market in general is not what it once was.

[Newton Gimmick]

Exactly what I was saying a while back Triglyph without the numbers. The comic industry is really tough to get ahead in and as a whole it's in a slump right now. It goes through those. And people buying comics are a lot less liekly to throw down $3.50 on a black and white turtles books, when for a dollar cheaper they can get a shiny colored Iron Man or DD or some other comic.

I'm sure Mirage does better selling direct and that's what a lot of indy comic books do, sell on their website mainly. I love the WOWI formula and it's sooooo convienant that I'm all for it. And if there are limited runs of actual books with perks like Laird's sketches? I'm all over that too.

But a lot of the people who complain, don't buy the darn books anyway.

[Raph'N'Roll]

Mr._Mutant_Man: I'm curious as to why TMNT volume 4 started to tank in comic stores. Is it just because TMNT as a whole wasn't selling, or was it because people didn't feel like picking up issues for that storyline anymore?

I'd say it was a mixture of both bad art and sllooowwww moving storyline, I found myself buying the comic just for the sake of it.
I never liked the whole Utroms reveal themselves to Humans plot, which in turn enabled the Turtles to walk around in public, walk around in public?!

This took the urban myth, the legend away from the Turtles, read Tales of The TMNT 36 and you'll know what I mean, the turtles seem so dangerous and secretive, I love that atmosphere that this creates.
Say for example, the Turtles take on some gangsters or drug dealers in VOL 4, instead of the criminals being terrified and staring in disbelief because they've never seen anything like a Ninja Turtle before, or maybe because they've heard scary stories about them, they'll just be like "Oh it's one of those stupid Aliens, open fire".

I wish all of VOL 4 would have taken place on another planet, at least when the storyline wrapped up, they could've went back to New York for some real gritty action, which after all of this far out stuff, would have made a nice refreshing change.

[PAAATE]

Maybe the utroms realize they've made a mistake and erases eveyones memory of what happened?

Umm.. Then I'd rather have it as it is.. Just going back to normal at the end of a storyarc is lame.

[Raph'N'Roll]

PAAATE:Then I'd rather have it as it is.. Just going back to normal at the end of a storyarc is lame.

I wasn't suggesting that they go back to normal now, it's too late for that, rather that the story took place elsewhere, like the Triceraton story arc from Vol 1.
I just wish the story never went the route it did, it took something away from the characters that really defined them, and it'll never be the same again.

[Triglyph]

Originally Posted by Newton Gimmick

Exactly what I was saying a while back Triglyph without the numbers. The comic industry is really tough to get ahead in and as a whole it's in a slump right now. It goes through those. And people buying comics are a lot less liekly to throw down $3.50 on a black and white turtles books, when for a dollar cheaper they can get a shiny colored Iron Man or DD or some other comic.

I'd love to see the physical comic market thrive once again, but I think we're going to see it fall more and more into a smaller niche marketplace. I'd agree the business tends to go in cycles, but with the rising costs of paper and shipping versus the decreasing cost of bandwith and digital storage space, I see fewer business models that rely on "printed" material doing well in the future-I am not speaking of only of specific comic publishers, but companies wanting to put out magazines, short stories, novels, etc are all looking into more digital options at this point. Its certainly not proven to be a successful avenue, but there was that little ebook reader thing amazon put out, for example. People are begining to look at paperless forms of printed materials due to the significantly decreased cost of production and distribution. I think we're going to see comics move more in that direction. Again, to the dismay of the fans and collectors, but in order for the business to continue, the business model will need to evolve. If the consumer is unhappy with the rise in cost, they'll have to accept receiving more digital content. I know of many people who stopped buying books due to the cost per issue. While the hardcore fans are still buying, you also need the average joe to be giving you his money to experience a "boom".

I bought "the mice templar" number 1 last year. It was worth every penny...but I must honestly admit I rarely purchase comics today due to the cost. I haven't even made it out to pick up issues two and three yet...I'd love to see that thing blow up...toys, a cartoon, dvds...If you guys haven't checked it out, definitely pick it up. Most beautiful art I have seen in a while, well written story...not just "action panels"...but a real story...My point is, they had great advertising going into that and even I bought that book, and (I'd have to look up the numbers) it still only sold something like 12,000 copies. Its tough today...

I am hoping mirage's current direction will be the begining of something big. When you look back on things, they took advantage of the diamond system when they got started and they caught it right from the build up all the way through the big boom. They got their fair share of the crash with the company Eastman put together, but their successes weren't based soley on the ninja turtles characters. Laird (and Eastman too) is a cat who knows how to handle his business. He takes alot of criticism (and I also can't really see the reason behind remastering #1 because I liked the "muddiness"), but you don't just fall into that level of success. You can fall into the potential for success, and EASILY screw it up, but you need to do a lot of work to make those deals that make you successful. He's had amazing success at the drawing board and at the conference table. I know I said this in another thread, but I'd love to catch up with him at one of the conventions, thank him, and get him to sign my set of dark horse miniatures that eastman autographed for me.

[jerome]

I can't remember what issue it is but in the letters column of vol. 4 around the time that Revenge of the Sith came out peter wrote about it in his little editorial section. In it he pretty much bashed George Lucas and Episode III. I find it quite amusing that he will sit and bash lucas for the same reasons some of us here are bashing him.

and even if volume 4 only sold roughly 11,000 copies of issue #1. If that issue and the issues that followed would have been more in line with Tales #36 i would bet my third arm that sales would have gone up and the book would have been a success

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by jerome

I can't remember what issue it is but in the letters column of vol. 4 around the time that Revenge of the Sith came out peter wrote about it in his little editorial section. In it he pretty much bashed George Lucas and Episode III. I find it quite amusing that he will sit and bash lucas for the same reasons some of us here are bashing him.

You have no idea how much that amused me. Especially because he nailed absolutely zero of the legitimate criticisms you could make about Episode 3. All the stuff he was whining about just made it clear he didn't understand Star Wars.

[jerome]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

You have no idea how much that amused me. Especially because he nailed absolutely zero of the legitimate criticisms you could make about Episode 3. All the stuff he was whining about just made it clear he didn't understand Star Wars.

sometimes i doubt he understands TMNT or it's fans...

[Jester]

Originally Posted by jerome

I can't remember what issue it is but in the letters column of vol. 4 around the time that Revenge of the Sith came out peter wrote about it in his little editorial section. In it he pretty much bashed George Lucas and Episode III. I find it quite amusing that he will sit and bash lucas for the same reasons some of us here are bashing him.

and even if volume 4 only sold roughly 11,000 copies of issue #1. If that issue and the issues that followed would have been more in line with Tales #36 i would bet my third arm that sales would have gone up and the book would have been a success

I'm thinking 22 or 23, but that's just an educated guess:

Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Release Date: 19 May 2005

TMNT #22 First Printing: June, 2005
TMNT #23 First Printing: August, 2005

So....there you go. I'll read through the letters, see what i find. Want a post of the editorial?

[Triglyph]

Originally Posted by Jester

So....there you go. I'll read through the letters, see what i find. Want a post of the editorial?

I am curious enough to read it if someone were to post the editorial in question. I probably wouldn't have a comment, but I'd read it.

[jerome]

Originally Posted by Jester

I'm thinking 22 or 23, but that's just an educated guess:

Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Release Date: 19 May 2005

TMNT #22 First Printing: June, 2005
TMNT #23 First Printing: August, 2005

So....there you go. I'll read through the letters, see what i find. Want a post of the editorial?

yeah a post of the editorial would be awesome. I'd do it myself but my comics are in storage I should go get them out...

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Jester

I'm thinking 22 or 23, but that's just an educated guess:

Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Release Date: 19 May 2005

TMNT #22 First Printing: June, 2005
TMNT #23 First Printing: August, 2005

So....there you go. I'll read through the letters, see what i find. Want a post of the editorial?

Yes please!

[Jester]

That's 3....
Ok...here:

Originally Posted by Peter Laird

It is a tad ironic.

It's from 22 by the way.