SOTO Revisited

[AquaParade]

I just re-watched Secret of the Ooze last night for the first time in at least a decade. Somewhere along the line I realized the first film was vastly superior and just began watching the 1990 film whenever I wanted that type of fix.

But it was a lot of fun to re-visit the movie, despite the flaws. First, the negatives:

- You can generally go across the board and dock this movie points from every category, in comparison to the first. Nearly everything important is a step down. Most fatally, the story. There is about 20 minutes of good story here, which includes any time the turtles are reflecting on their origin and their purpose in this world, as well as the continuing threads from the first film. Flaws in the story come in the form of "death by a thousand paper cuts". Little by little, things start making less sense, such as Splinter raising concerns for the city being "in danger" (hmm, fine, the turtles do live there.), but it then gets worse as Shredder unleashes Tokka and Rahzar in an attempt to lure the turtles out of hiding - okay, we've officially entered "teenage mutant hero turtle" territory out of seemingly nowhere.

It is indeed satisfying to jump back into this world and have Raphael reciting the recent fight with Shredder, as if we are picking up right where we left off. Unfortunately, the illusion has already been slightly shattered by the turtles using toys and edibles as weapons in the opening scene.

- Which brings me to my next point and the most obvious flaw of the sequel: action scenes take a huge step down. That's not news to anyone. We went from swords and blades to cold-cuts. The action in this movie is a vehicle for comedy and nothing else. There is no tension. The first film had it's goofy bits mixed in with the action, but were mainly focused on drama and character.

Story and action both take huge hits, and that's practically fatal when it comes to this property. They took something with a ton of promise and watered it down.

Stylistically, much is lost as well. No longer are we viewing the world through a grainy filter, through dark sewers. Everything is bright and shiny. It looks nice, but it doesn't convey a sense of atmosphere like the first film does.

That said, I was actually able to sit through the whole movie and even enjoy myself, nostalgia mostly aside. That's because the saving grace of this movie is the characters. A bright light in the midst of all this disappointment. The turtles, like elements of the story, pick up right where we left off and you see their personality shine through in every scene. Leonardo still bends a knee when Splinter speaks, while you have Raph, half paying attention, half brodding, in the back. The turtles goof around and get along but still have tension, especially concerning Raphael, who seems to have mellowed out without completely growing out of his rebellious side - perfect. They make use of a small comedic moment by having it be Mikey who does the quirky impressions of a movie character - a callback to the first film, which I appreciate for continuity sake. Then there is Donatello, who remains introspective in that he comes across as the most concerned with the mystery of the turtles origin, just as he had a heightened concern for Splinter's passing in the first film.
These characters are fleshed out, and have a great chemistry that makes them enjoyable to be around. I don't mind all the goofing around as much when the characters are this likeable.

So, all in all, I find the movie to be a massive step down from the first and a wasted opportunity. But I still enjoy the film, due to just how well crafted these characters are, and the small bits of story continuation from the first film, that seeped their way in.

What say you?

[Galactus]

The movie set up like it was going to be Donatello-centric and then drops that after Perry tells the 'truth' about the ooze. Personally I would have had it that Don desperate to know the truth of his origin is the one to storm off. He uses his ingenuity to locate the Foot HQ and is the one to get captured but somehow get a message to his brothers.

As you might imagine by the above I'd also drop Keno. As lovely as Ernie Reyes Jr is his character only exists because people working on the first movie really liked Ernie Reyes Jr. At least Danny's arc in the first movie was symbolic of the overall story.

Y'know I'd also have Bebop and Rocksteady instead of Tokka and Rahzar. Both sets of characters are just as stupid as the other and frankly this is one of those times I'd give the audience what it wants. I'd have them as part of a group of punks the turtles fight early on the movie so willingly volunteer for a DNA splicing experiment with the mutagen. Plus once Hollywood scratched that itch I'd hope we'd forgo the next few decades of trying to get then onscreen.

[Wesley]

Ok sequel, but unlike the first movie, I have to be in the mood for watching it. If you like the 1987 series and treat it as an adaptation of that show, it?s enjoyable enough imo.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Wesley

Ok sequel, but unlike the first movie, I have to be in the mood for watching it. If you like the 1987 series and treat it as an adaptation of that show, it?s enjoyable enough imo.

Well said. I should have mentioned this right off the bat, because it really is the perfect adaption of the original cartoon, minus maybe a turtle van chase scene.

Originally Posted by Galactus

The movie set up like it was going to be Donatello-centric and then drops that after Perry tells the 'truth' about the ooze. Personally I would have had it that Don desperate to know the truth of his origin is the one to storm off. He uses his ingenuity to locate the Foot HQ and is the one to get captured but somehow get a message to his brothers.

As you might imagine by the above I'd also drop Keno. As lovely as Ernie Reyes Jr is his character only exists because people working on the first movie really liked Ernie Reyes Jr. At least Danny's arc in the first movie was symbolic of the overall story.

Y'know I'd also have Bebop and Rocksteady instead of Tokka and Rahzar. Both sets of characters are just as stupid as the other and frankly this is one of those times I'd give the audience what it wants. I'd have them as part of a group of punks the turtles fight early on the movie so willingly volunteer for a DNA splicing experiment with the mutagen. Plus once Hollywood scratched that itch I'd hope we'd forgo the next few decades of trying to get then onscreen.

Yeah, they may as well have used Bebop and Rocksteady given the direction this movie went. It would have been fun to see them done by Henaon, quite honestly, and may have satiated the growing beast of a shadow that the cartoon has had over the franchise.

[Leo656]

I've said it a bunch. I can stand it but I need to be in the mood and preferably doing a marathon of all three movies. I almost never put it on "just for the hell of it".

Works better if you pretend it's its own thing, even though they spend all of two seconds trying to connect it to the first movie. Doesn't work, though, if you're like me and all the inconsistencies scream at you. As a FW adaptation, it's fine, but it's a terrible sequel to the first movie. Throw out two lines of dialog and there's no connection at all, which is better because it doesn't remind you of all the wasted potential and make you wish the 1990 film had a REAL sequel instead.

F*ck Vanilla Ice in the ear. What I wouldn't give to be able to mention "Ninja Turtles" to a lapsed or casual fan without having them bust out into the chorus of "Ninja Rap" 30 goddamn years later. "Pizza", "Cowabunga", and "Ninja Rap", that's all this franchise is remembered for after all these years. It's just not right.

My absolute favorite thing about the movie, is that it helped make Kevin Nash a very, very rich man.

[Galactus]

The fact that Ninja Rap is more remembered than Partner's in Kryme vastly superior Turtle Power (even with the naming of Raph as leader snafu) is a crime against music.

Incidentally I only recently heard the original version of Ya Kid K's Spin That Wheel. Granted there was no internet back then for kids to easily look things up on YouTube but it's weird to think a kid in the 90s could stumble on a recording of the original and hearing the original lyrics.

[oldmanwinters]

I love to know if Peter Laird ever finished a rough draft script for the movie. He shared a few files he found on his old computer on his blog years ago. I actually have a pet project where I'm trying to adapt those ideas into a fan-comic script.

[Leo656]

"Turtle Power" is alright. For a song with some patently silly lyrics it makes up for it slightly by having a good beat and an oddly "ominous" sound and tone to it.

For a kid who didn't have any appreciation for rap and electronica whatsoever until much later on in life, it's kind of surprising how much I listened to the TMNT soundtrack back in the day.

I also remember how people were trying really hard to make Ya Kid K "a thing" between 1989 and 1991. Didn't take, but he had a few minutes in the spotlight, I guess that's something.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Leo656

"Turtle Power" is alright. For a song with some patently silly lyrics it makes up for it slightly by having a good beat and an oddly "ominous" sound and tone to it.

For a kid who didn't have any appreciation for rap and electronica whatsoever until much later on in life, it's kind of surprising how much I listened to the TMNT soundtrack back in the day.

I also remember how people were trying really hard to make Ya Kid K "a thing" between 1989 and 1991. Didn't take, but he had a few minutes in the spotlight, I guess that's something.

I thought that was a girl? IDK I liked Ya Kid K's TMNT-related stuff anyways. Part 3 felt weird without one of um... his/her/it songs.

[Leo656]

Oh sh*t, that's entirely possible! In my head it sounded like a voice that belonged to a 15 year old boy. But what do I know? There I go, assuming "male" as the default again! Subtract 50 "Woke" points!

You're right, Ya Kid K was totally a chick. My bad! I swear I knew that once upon a time and just forgot. On account of they haven't been relevant since before the stores stopped selling Ecto Cooler.

TMNT III didn't have any Ya Kid K, but it did have "Tarzan Boy". So that's something.

...."Something" in this case being "Apropos Of Nothing In The Movie Whatsoever". But it's a good enough song, so whatever.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by Wesley

Ok sequel, but unlike the first movie, I have to be in the mood for watching it. If you like the 1987 series and treat it as an adaptation of that show, it?s enjoyable enough imo.

To be honest it I'm not sure it feels like an adaption of the animated series either.

It continues the first movies mixing of the comic and the show but there is more original stuff here just it's not really good like I said Tokka and Rahzar might have been created because Peter and Kevin thought Bebop and Rocksteady but I can't imagine they'd be any dumber than Tokka and Rahzar.

Even a kid I could see the clear drop off in quality from the first move. For me it's that Barron had a clear sense of style that even when mixing two diifferent things like the Mirage comic and the Fred Wolf cartoon visually and tonally it was it's own thing.

As a kid I felt the main problem was that it was lighter than this but I'm not sure that's the problem. SOTO often feels like a TV movie despite it's larger budget. I know Pressman has gone on to do better things but with this film it's like he simply pointed the camera and clicked. I'd prefer a 'darker' movie, sure but it's problem isn't that it's lighter it's that it's not as well made. You could make a lighter movie without shooting the turtles in a way that exposes that they are just rubber costumes. The story itself is pretty sound it's the presentation that needed some work.

[Leo656]

Those are good points. The first TMNT film was dynamic. Engaging. Great use of dramatic camera work, lighting and shadow to create effect, all of it. Every scene and frame was meticulously plotted out and executed. It's "gritty" due to its intentional graininess but it's a very "slick" piece of work insofar as its actual style and presentation.

The second and third films, by comparison, are lazily shot and lazily staged. "Point and shoot" bangs the nail. It's like watching "Superman III" after watching the first one, or even after Superman II. The first was brilliantly presented, second was a hack-and-splice job but still halfway decent. Superman III was ugly. Bad lighting, poor framing, terrible lens filter... talk about looking like a "Made For TV" movie... a 1970s TV movie, at that. Which is terrible for a full-budget theatrical movie produced in the mid-1980s. That movie looks like shiiiiiiiiit.

TMNT II and II aren't "ugly" like that, but they're lazy. They have a lazy, one-dimensional presentation. Everything interesting about the staging from the first movie is gone. The dynamic use of lighting and shadow? Gone. Everything is at Full Brightness, all the time, so now it just looks like a sitcom. Creative scene staging? Gone. Deliberately framing things to maximize the "cool factor" while hiding all the flaws? Gone. It's literally just "You guys stand here, and then do this, aaaand SCENE!" For a movie that is essentially all about "Style Over Substance"... TMNT II doesn't even HAVE any "style" of its own. It's literally like watching a cartoon: Flat, one-dimensional, and merely "functional".

I know this is all "film student artsy fartsy sh*t" to complain about but I NOTICE THESE THINGS GOD DAMMIT.

I mean the first film had Style. I mean S-T-Y-L-E. The second one is easier to see because all the lights are cranked way up, but it's oddly more boring to look at.

[AquaParade]

Nah, those are valid points, not artsy fartsy. I even touched on it in my first post. Lighting, set design, and that delicious filter are some of my fav things about the 1990 film. They captured the feel of the Mirage comics brilliantly by way of visuals.

[Galactus]

I tend to think most people subconsciously pick up on these things they just can't pick their finger on what exactly the know isn't working or can't articulate it.

That's why when discussing the flaws of the movie there's a lot of focus on stuff like combat cold cuts and the like. That's easier to point to and while that is dumb...like really dumb better executed movies get away with dumb ****. It would not have been the direction I'd have liked but SOTO could have easily been a more cartoon-like movie and worked in that context but they just went for a movie that simply functions.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Nah, those are valid points, not artsy fartsy. I even touched on it in my first post. Lighting, set design, and that delicious filter are some of my fav things about the 1990 film. They captured the feel of the Mirage comics brilliantly by way of visuals.

Oh, for sure, WE notice these things and understand and articulate them, but we tend to be smarter than the average bear, y'know?

Oftentimes when I try and steer the discussion that way, people tell me "It's just a movie" and "You're not supposed to care about things like that you f*ckin' dweeb."

I usually try and hit my Finish on 'em. But sometimes it's tough to hook and we so rarely have these conversations on the sidewalk where I could do proper damage. I do my best, though.

I take matters of "art" very, very, VERY seriously. In case you never noticed!

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Galactus

I tend to think most people subconsciously pick up on these things they just can't pick their finger on what exactly the know isn't working or can't articulate it.

That's why when discussing the flaws of the movie there's a lot of focus on stuff like combat cold cuts and the like. That's easier to point to and while that is dumb...like really dumb better executed movies get away with dumb ****. It would not have been the direction I'd have liked but SOTO could have easily been a more cartoon-like movie and worked in that context but they just went for a movie that simply functions.

I somewhat agree, but even in the first film, it'dbe an issue if they were fighting with cold cuts as opposed to weapons.

I mean, Mikey does fight with cymbals at one point, in the heat of life or death battle, and it does kind of suck.

[Coola Yagami]

I don't know why Eastman and Laird fought so hard to keep Bebop and Rocksteady out of the movie if Tokka and Rahzar were going to be idiots too. Then they made them so strong that the only way the Turtles ever stood a chance was because they were dumb.

I honestly felt bad for them because they were basically babies with the bodies of (I guess) adult monsters. They were mutated for what... a week? The Turtles took 15 years to get to where they were then mentally, and the first movie did show a bit of their baby years as well. It's a big different from the typical 'uneducated street thug' type of dumb to the literal mentality of a child.

[Leo656]

Yeah, all of that was awkward and doesn't really make much sense.

Once you realize the TMNT are essentially trying to beat on the mentally handicapped the movie's a lot less fun.

And yeah, I have never, ever understood why Bebop & Rocksteady were verboten but Tokka and Rahzar get a pass. Laird must have just really, really, REALLY had a very specific and laser-focused hatred for that show, more so than he had for Big Dumb Mutants in general. "I'm fine with Big Dumb Mutants, but NOTHING from that goddamn show gets into the movies! You hear me? NOTHING!" That's like, the only thing that makes any sense at all.

[Coola Yagami]

Yeah, though IDK, they should have probably gave them a pass given most everyone at the time knew who the Turtles were thanks to the show.

Back in the 80's I'd buy comics from a local drugstore that had a comic section. That's where I'd first buy my Batman and Spider-Man and eventually the Archie Comics TMNT.

Only time I ever heard of 'another' TMNT comic was when we went to some other store once, farther from home and they sold indie comics as well as the usual stuff, so I grabbed the TMNT comic with Karai on the cover. I noticed the more serious tone, and hey Rat King was in it. When TMNT Tournament Fighters came out, I felt extra cool cause I knew who Karai was before she was cool.

But back then to make the movies more and more like the comics, comics most of us never heard of, woulda been kinda weird. I think the first movie, despite it following the Mirage storyline, got away with it cause we still had Turtles, Splinter, April, Casey, Shredder and the Foot, and despite the more serious tone, the Turtles still acted pretty much like their cartoon selves with the pizza and extra slang, and April was still a reporter. I assume it was a compromise Eastman and Laird would have had to make cause I know kids would have felt weird back then if the Turtles were no-nonsense for the entire movie. Or at least the parents taking their kids to go see it.

I mean idk, I guess I was lucky to have been the right age when that movie came out. The fact that Raph was beat almost to death in the first movie was more shocking to me then than it would have been if I was an adult back then, I would assume.

[Leo656]

I mostly agree. I've always said part of what made the magic of the 1990 movie work, was that it was mostly Mirage but with juuuust enough elements from the FW cartoon to make it familiar to the audience. If it had been 100% from the cartoon, it wouldn't be so highly regarded because it would have been Just A Goofy Kids Movie... like the second and to a slightly lesser extent the third. But by staying about 80% in the vein of Mirage, it kept it just grounded enough, with just enough "heart", for people to accept it as a "Real Movie".

I've said this many times, but to this day, whenever I show that movie to someone who has never seen it, especially adults, they always rave when it's over. "That was actually a really good movie!" The "actually" being important, because everyone confesses that they expected a goofy lark and came away getting so much more.

That's unique to the first one. II and III are competent kids movies, and there's undoubtedly fun to be had, but are they "Good Movies"? No, no, they're not. Not outside of the "Kids Movie" box. They excel in that area but ONLY in that area. There's nothing for adults or non-fans to enjoy or take seriously. But the first one plays well with almost everyone, and there's a million reasons why that is. I know all of us at age 8 expected and maybe would have preferred it if the first movie was a straight FW rip... but in the Big Picture, what they did was the right thing to do.

100% Mirage would have made the movie totally unfamiliar to 99% of the paying audience. 100% FW would have alienated anyone except little kids. But that 80/20 split that they settled on was right in the sweet spot. There's tons of reasons why that movie succeeds and every other TMNT movie since has failed, but that's a huge factor.

I remember the first time I saw an issue of the Mirage comic. Would've been around 1990, issue #1 at a shop, forget what printing but it was like $100. My Dad thought that was ridiculous, so obviously we didn't get it. Too bad.