A Rumination on the DCEU

[ProphetofGanja]

I just read this piece on the DC Extended Universe and I think it sums up the problems with the previous films and the success of Wonder Woman pretty well.

I never read many of DC's comic offerings but like everyone I was familiar with (most of) their characters. Despite liking some of their characters, none of the DCEU movies have been enjoyable at all to me yet (note: I have not yet seen Wonder Woman; I plan to, and I think it will at least be better than what has come before).

Any thoughts from anyone more familiar with DC?

[CyberCubed]

I don't read DC comics, but taken from the cartoons and the older movies, the whole Batman killing people and Superman going around with a grimace all the time and never smiling has always felt wrong. Also Lex Luthor in the movies is not Lex Luthor.

[sdp]

I don't know about that article, I kind of agree in some parts but not all. I do think DC characters should be treated more like Gods, of course that makes a difficult movie to make. DC has always been stuck with this problem even with the comics, people get mad when they try to give their heroes more problems a la marvel but if they don't they say they're boring. I really like the darker DC films and found BvS a bit of a mess but overall liked the mood. I wrote about the problems with the DCEU a while ago.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

See, this is the tragedy of the whole thing; Wonder Woman FINALLY showed DC/Warner Bros the way on how to do their super hero movie universe, but it's already too late. We've already seen this universe's take on the other big two, and it's depressing that the amazing-ness that is Wonder Woman shares a universe with the suck that is Man of Steel and Batman vs. Superman.

What I really wish they could do is jettison the rest of this continuity outside the WW film, use Wonder Woman as the start of a 'retro' DC universe, and follow up with a Superman film that repeats what Wonder woman did; a period piece set in 1938, that retells superman's origin in it's original context, with the golden age Superman's limited power set; leaping 3/8 of a mile, no heat or X-ray vision, limited strength and invulnerability.(he could gain more powers as the years pass, until he's modern supes in the modern era)

Make him Clark Kent, who arrived on Earth in his rocket as a baby in 1915, and Now works for Editor George Taylor at the newspaper, the Daily star. Give Lois Lane a role similar to Steve Trevor; that of a partner instead of a Damsel in Distress. And make superman and his film an upbeat superhero who inspires hope, and have him fight ultra-humanite, and the Yellow Mask (one of his foes from the 1940's radio show). Follow it up with a batman film set in the 1940's, fighting Dr. Death and Dala. Make the solo films and sequels period pieces (you can easily come up with an easy explanation for the not aging). Then put Justice League in the modern day.

I'd love for them to do this, but unfortunately with justice league already made, it would never happen. We're stuck with Nolan's 'realistic and grounded' fertilizer that is MOS, BvS, and JL, surrounding the beautiful rose bush that is the Wonder Woman film. Ugh, I don't care what anyone says, you don't NEED to set a superhero film in the modern day to make it work (and nobody use the phrase 'relevant' to me)

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

See, this is the tragedy of the whole thing; Wonder Woman FINALLY showed DC/Warner Bros the way on how to do their super hero movie universe, but it's already too late. We've already seen this universe's take on the other big two, and it's depressing that the amazing-ness that is Wonder Woman shares a universe with the suck that is Man of Steel and Batman vs. Superman.

What I really wish they could do is jettison the rest of this continuity outside the WW film, use Wonder Woman as the start of a 'retro' DC universe, and follow up with a Superman film that repeats what Wonder woman did; a period piece set in 1938, that retells superman's origin in it's original context, with the golden age Superman's limited power set; leaping 3/8 of a mile, no heat or X-ray vision, limited strength and invulnerability.(he could gain more powers as the years pass, until he's modern supes in the modern era)

And Immortal Superman, like WW? Neither of these characters are even supposed to be Immortals. WW being an Immortal is Geoff Johns/movie thing. Making Superman Immortal is awful.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

And Immortal Superman, like WW? Neither of these characters are even supposed to be Immortals. WW being an Immortal is Geoff Johns/movie thing. Making Superman Immortal is awful.

Okay, this idea of yours, right here, is wrong. It's been implied EVERYWHERE in the comics that Superman will have a faaaaar longer lifespan than a normal human, due to his solar-enhanced Kryptonian genetics. The Earth 2 superman lived decades with only getting grey temples, same with kingdom come superman. Various elseworlds versions have superman living for centuries, and the silver age Earth one version will be alive thousands of years from now, without any sign of aging- see the Elliot S! Maggin story 'Miracle Monday'. And the CANON (post-crisis) story DC one million has him alive, un-aged, and waaay more powerful, one million years from now, his fortress of solitude now inside the sun itself.

So yeah, he's always been basically close to immortal.

[TurtleWA]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

And Immortal Superman, like WW? Neither of these characters are even supposed to be Immortals. WW being an Immortal is Geoff Johns/movie thing. Making Superman Immortal is awful.

Agreed not good idea to be immortal. I don't think it would even work because of his origin coming to earth as an infant. If he was immortal wouldn't he be ageless and stuck as an infant forever? Unless immortality is dormant and gained at a later time. DC could borrow some Cap story lines. Have Superman frozen in the 1940s in his fortress or something and then Batman thaws him out in present time. That way no immortality but still present in multiple times without aging.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Originally Posted by TurtleWA

Agreed not good idea to be immortal. I don't think it would even work because of his origin coming to earth as an infant. If he was immortal wouldn't he be ageless and stuck as an infant forever? Unless immortality is dormant and gained at a later time. DC could borrow some Cap story lines. Have Superman frozen in the 1940s in his fortress or something and then Batman thaws him out in present time. That way no immortality but still present in multiple times without aging.

Except according to various comics and continuities, he IS basically immortal- he can be killed, but he will barely age.

[TurtleWA]

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

Okay, this idea of yours, right here, is wrong. It's been implied EVERYWHERE in the comics that Superman will have a faaaaar longer lifespan than a normal human, due to his solar-enhanced Kryptonian genetics. The Earth 2 superman lived decades with only getting grey temples, same with kingdom come superman. Various elseworlds versions have lived for centuries, and the silver age Earth one version will be alive thousands of years from now, without any sign of aging- see the Elliot S! Maggin story 'Miracle Monday'. And the CANON (post-crisis) story DC one million has him alive, un-aged, and waaay more powerful, one million years from now, his fortress of solitude now inside the sun itself.

So yeah, he's always been basically close to immortal.

Yes close but not immortal. kryptonians aging is very slow compared to us.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Originally Posted by TurtleWA

Yes close but not immortal. kryptonians aging is very slow compared to us.

True, but with his basic lifespan in most continuities, if one million years in the future he hasn't aged, he could make it from 1938 to the present without a single grey hair.

[TurtleWA]

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

True, but with his basic lifespan in most continuities, if one million years in the future he hasn't aged, he could make it from 1938 to the present without a single grey hair.

I suppose.

Technically he could be killed on TVs Smallville if that counts . Blue kryptonite suppresses his abilities enough that mortal wounds could be inflicted.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

Okay, this idea of yours, right here, is wrong. It's been implied EVERYWHERE in the comics that Superman will have a faaaaar longer lifespan than a normal human, due to his solar-enhanced Kryptonian genetics. The Earth 2 superman lived decades with only getting grey temples, same with kingdom come superman. Various elseworlds versions have lived for centuries, and the silver age Earth one version will be alive thousands of years from now, without any sign of aging- see the Elliot S! Maggin story 'Miracle Monday'. And the CANON (post-crisis) story DC one million has him alive, un-aged, and waaay more powerful, one million years from now, his fortress of solitude now inside the sun itself.

So yeah, he's always been basically close to immortal.

Kingdom Come Superman looked way older. Look at those wrinkles and hair. He aged the same as everyone else, beyond everyone else's bones' breaking down in the same way (Batman's, etc.). Not just white temples.

And DC One Million (I own it) Superman was preserved as some kind of golden Star Child thing inside because... he was inside the sun. Inside the sun. Chilling in there, in the middle. Not rutting around on Earth, getting older and older, as we saw him.

[Cure]

The way you put that made me laugh. I dunno, just something kinda funny about a man chilling inside the sun.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Kingdom Come Superman looked way older. Look at those wrinkles and hair. He aged the same as everyone else, beyond everyone else's bones' breaking down in the same way (Batman's, etc.). Not just white temples.

And DC One Million (I own it) Superman was preserved as some kind of golden Star Child thing inside because... he was inside the sun. Inside the sun. Chilling in there, in the middle. Not rutting around on Earth, getting older and older, as we saw him.

I'll concede that, but both cases still imply unnatural longevity. And there's still 'Miracle Monday', various elseworlds stories where he doesn't seem to age (Superman/batman: Generations, among others) the earth 2 superman who only looked slightly older with grey temples, and slightly aged features. Other versions have implied a ridiculously long lifespan, as well- they had a whole episode of Lois and Clark dedicated to how Lois feared being an old woman with Clark still young, after Prof. Hamilton told her: Superman will still be here fighting for truth, justice, and the American way, long after we are gone."

My point is, it's been implied in many different places that, while he's not immortal, he'll live far past a normal human lifespan, and there are several versions where a few centuries are next to nothing for him So surviving from the 30's until now, and not aging, isn't much of a stretch.

[Krutch]

I grew up with strictly DC comics, only ever venturing into Marvel during the Maximum Carnage saga for a bit because, hey, symbiotes were the bee's knees back then.

What we've seen on screen so far is a poor, poor example of who the properties are. Man of Steel was offensively bad in every regard from storytelling to characterization to filmmaking... it was all nonsense. Actually, Hanz Zimmer's score at times was pretty strong, so there's that.

BVS was their chance to right alot of the wrongs MoS did, and the only thing I noticed they "corrected" was allow Snyder to shoot in a way more akin to his sensibilities as opposed to imitating Nolan with the desaturated handheld aesthetic. For all the complaints that it was too dark (and it was), it actually had a rich colour palette amongst the shadows and fire. Which is more than can be said about MoS's blue hue of gloom.

Suicide Squad at one point I felt knew what it wanted to be, then shifted gears to account for all the backlash of DC movies having "no fun" as well as the success of GotG. So what they ended up with was about 3 different movies with wildly different tones contending at once, and none of it finding any balance. It was the "strongest" outing they had yet, but ugh, that's not saying much.

Now we have Wonder Woman which is at last a good movie. Perfect? No, but I wasn't expecting it to be. It's a movie about hero wanting to do good and save people. Imagine that Not about Gods among men, not about the pitfalls and trappings of helping people, not about a band of faceless misfits shooting literally faceless black zombies in the dark... it's about heroism. And while I like to think it's a sign of things to come... Snyder is still steering the ship. And he's someone who clearly enjoys projecting his own interpretation of these characters and has little to no interesting in understanding whats made these properties so enduring for 70+ years.

Whedon's involvement I'd like to get excited for, but considering his inclusion came with an announcement that there's Batgirl and Nightwing movies in the works, I'm guessing it's just DCs way of padding the exit of Batman when Ben leaves.

As much as I liked Wonder Woman, I wish DC would just hit the reset button and keep Zack far away from their toys.

[sdp]

I like to think of Superman as aging slightly slower than normal humans, I think that's how the DCAU handled it, he's older but he's not super old like most of the cast is by then.

[Andrew NDB]

We already have WW as this Immortal thing that's been around for at least 100 years in the DCEU, which unnecessarily adds a layer of "We can't relate to her" to the character. WW can work (and did work, in this first movie) in spite of that, but it's a self-made barrier that doesn't exist in the source material.

Now you want to add the same to Clark? Beyond his biological origin, he's supposed to be a regular guy who grows up in Smallville and then wants to help the world. He can lift a building up with one arm and it doesn't hurt him if you take a hammer to his nuts, but beyond that stuff he's like you and me. You make him this Immortal that's been creeping around since the 1930s, now what is he? That's horrible. And how would that even work with the Clark Kent identity?

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

We already have WW as this Immortal thing that's been around for at least 100 years in the DCEU, which unnecessarily adds a layer of "We can't relate to her" to the character. WW can work (and did work, in this first movie) in spite of that, but it's a self-made barrier that doesn't exist in the source material.

Now you want to add the same to Clark? Beyond his biological origin, he's supposed to be a regular guy who grows up in Smallville and then wants to help the world. He can lift a building up with one arm and it doesn't hurt him if you take a hammer to his nuts, but beyond that stuff he's like you and me. You make him this Immortal that's been creeping around since the 1930s, now what is he? That's horrible. And how would that even work with the Clark Kent identity?

I don't see it as horrible in the least. Again, many versions have given him advanced longevity due to his powers, I have seen only one or two times he's aged normally. And I never said he would be Immortal, just age slower than normal humans. The earth two superman did it for Decades; the real reason he had grey temples was to tell the difference between him and the earth one superman during crossover stories. And Kal-el might have abandoned Clark Kent's identidy by that point, I'd be surprised if he still even has a secret identidy.

In other words, most stories seem to imply he's going to live decades, or even centuries, or longer, due to his powers slowing his aging. But no, I havn't seen it stated anywhere in the source material that he ages normally. Then again, I'm a fan of pre- crisis supes, so there might have been a post-crisis storyline that stated it that I missed. I think that might be the problem here; a post-crisis farm boy everyman perspective, vs the Clark is the disguise kal-el is the real person pre-crisis perspective. If that's the case, well just have to disagree.

[Andrew NDB]

Now, how should they "fix" the DCEU going forward?

* Let Joss Whedon do whatever he can to make the JL movie presentable. Don't rush into JL2.

* Get "The Batman" and "Man of Steel 2" in the pipes for late 2018, early 2019. Now. Get the right people on them with the right vision. Let's see Batman beating himself up for murdering all those people in BvS and him trying to make good now. Maybe he can meet the Tim Drake Robin, and he kind of is able to snap Batman out of his reverie. Give the Jared Leto Joker some actual relevance to the plot. They can keep Deathstroke in there or not, it doesn't really matter as long as it's a good Batman story. "Man of Steel 2," call it "Superman." Also, don't make it some damn commercial for Shazam by making Black Adam the villain. Let's see Brainiac, or Mongul with Warworld. Right away, have Lex Luthor Sr. come home to Metropolis to save LexCorp from the state his son has left it in, and have him played by someone like Joaquin Phoenix. Don't mention the son too much, the less said the better. Have Lex Sr. make a classic Lex play... while Brainiac is ripping apart the world, Lex Sr. is doing his best to save it, setting the stage for a "Lex for President" thing in a subsequent movie (a role he'll, of course, abuse).

Between those two movies, I think the goodwill on Batman and Superman both would be suitably restored. Now things can go forward.

* Aquaman: I guess it's filming so not too much to be done about it but give the guys enough berth to make what they've shot hopefully pretty good.

* Flash: Shelve it until the new Batman and Superman movies come out, then resume work.

* Shazam: Cancel it. Entirely. They can try to work Shazam into a future JL movie and test the waters for him in that or Black Adam, maybe.

* Cyborg: Cancel it. Pretend it was never even on the slate.

* Green Lantern Corps: Keep it going... however... fire Geoff Johns from it immediately from any sort of creative role along with anyone on board the team saying "It can be the DC version of Guardians of the Galaxy!" No, it can't. You're a hack.

* Gotham City Sirens: Cancel it. No reason to spread things so thin this early out. Return to it later, maybe. Or don't.

* Suicide Squad 2: Keep working on it. Keep the idea clear, don't reshoot it three times because someone didn't like some other movie.

* Batgirl: Keep it, but as with Flash, they need to get Batman and Superman themselves right before we start getting into much of anything else.

* Nightwing: Keep it, but no rush on this at all. Let's meet Nightwing in "The Batman" first and let that digest a while.

* Black Adam: Rather than using a Shazam movie to introduce Black Adam, I think using a Black Adam movie to introduce Shazam might not be the worst thing ever. The Rock can make this pretty brutal. Probably some guest spots from Superman or WW would help sell this.

* WW2: Definitely make this happen and with the same team. Except Geoff Johns. No studio interference. The obvious inclination from WB will be, "Oh, people like our WW movie! WW2 can be a springboard for this character, and this character, and this character/storyline!" No. Don't.

* Teen Titans: Definitely a market for a good Teen Titans movie. Spin the Tim Drake Robin we met from The Batman into this. Batgirl, possibly. Have Cyborg be kind of the leader (here, he can have this instead of a solo movie).

* Now, now they can work their way into a JL2 movie.

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

I don't see it as horrible in the least. Again, many versions have given him advanced longevity due to his powers, I have seen only one or two times he's aged normally. And I never said he would be Immortal, just age slower than normal humans. The earth two superman did it for Decades; the real reason he had grey temples was to tell the difference between him and the earth one superman during crossover stories. And Kal-el might have abandoned Clark Kent's identidy by that point, he might be going by Conrad Ellison (kal-el), by that point (an alias he used in the the 'jungle line' crossover story with swamp thing) if he still even has a secret identidy.

In other words, most stories seem to imply he's going to live decades, or even centuries, or longer, due to his powers slowing his aging. But no, I havn't seen it stated anywhere that he ages normally. Then again, I'm a fan of pre- crisis supes, so there might have been a post-crisis storyline that stated it that I missed.

You're missing the point. A Superman who has literally been alive since the 1920s and 1930s until now is a fundamentally different character. It's OK that he might age a little slower going forward... but if we're going to say he's already been around for a century, that's making the character unnecessarily unidentifiable right now.

[ProphetofGanja]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Now, how should they "fix" the DCEU going forward?

* Let Joss Whedon do whatever he can to make the JL movie presentable. Don't rush into JL2.

* Get "The Batman" and "Man of Steel 2" in the pipes for late 2018, early 2019. Now. Get the right people on them with the right vision. Let's see Batman beating himself up for murdering all those people in BvS and him trying to make good now. Maybe he can meet the Tim Drake Robin, and he kind of is able to snap Batman out of his reverie. Give the Jared Leto Joker some actual relevance to the plot. They can keep Deathstroke in there or not, it doesn't really matter as long as it's a good Batman story. "Man of Steel 2," call it "Superman." Also, don't make it some damn commercial for Shazam by making Black Adam the villain. Let's see Brainiac, or Mongul with Warworld. Right away, have Lex Luthor Sr. come home to Metropolis to save LexCorp from the state his son has left it in, and have him played by someone like Joaquin Phoenix. Don't mention the son too much, the less said the better. Have Lex Sr. make a classic Lex play... while Brainiac is ripping apart the world, Lex Sr. is doing his best to save it, setting the stage for a "Lex for President" thing in a subsequent movie (a role he'll, of course, abuse).

Between those two movies, I think the goodwill on Batman and Superman both would be suitably restored. Now things can go forward.

* Aquaman: I guess it's filming so not too much to be done about it but give the guys enough berth to make what they've shot hopefully pretty good.

* Flash: Shelve it until the new Batman and Superman movies come out, then resume work.

* Shazam: Cancel it. Entirely.

* Cyborg: Cancel it. Pretend it was never even on the slate.

* Green Lantern Corps: Keep it going... however... fire Geoff Johns from it immediately from any sort of creative role along with anyone on board the team saying "It can be the DC version of Guardians of the Galaxy!" No, it can't. You're a hack.

* Gotham City Sirens: Cancel it. No reason to spread things so thin this early out. Return to it later, maybe. Or don't.

* Suicide Squad 2: Keep working on it. Keep the idea clear, don't reshoot it three times because someone didn't like some other movie.

* Batgirl: Keep it, but as with Flash, they need to get Batman and Superman themselves right before we start getting into much of anything else.

* Nightwing: Keep it, but no rush on this at all. Let's meet Nightwing in "The Batman" first and let that digest a while.

* WW2: Definitely make this happen and with the same team. Except Geoff Johns. No studio interference. The obvious inclination from WB will be, "Oh, people like our WW movie! WW2 can be a springboard for this character, and this character, and this character/storyline!" No. Don't.

* Teen Titans: Definitely a market for a good Teen Titans movie. Spin the Tim Drake Robin we met from The Batman into this. Batgirl, possibly. Have Cyborg be kind of the leader (here, he can have this instead of a solo movie).

* Now, now they can work their way into a JL2 movie.

Some really good ideas there. It's a shame you're not working at DC or Warner Bros or whoever produces their films