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Old 08-08-2019, 09:07 AM   #101
Whatswiththeheadbands?
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There are only 3 versions of the Turtles I like

- Mirage

- 1990 Movie (and only that movie)

- 2003 series (minus Fast Forward and Back to the Sewer, but including Turtles Forever)

And that's it.
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Old 08-08-2019, 10:19 AM   #102
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I wouldn't call it a gold standard by any mean, because season 1 isn't actually good. It just happens to have better pacing and some moments of decent animation, it was already mostly bad animation and nonsense writing.

The show still went downhill, it's just that most fans thinks it started on the top of Everest, when it really started on a compost pile and rolled down a hole near the base. It was always bad, it just got worse.
Do you think that any one of the show's 193 episodes is objectively good/well-written?
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The biggest villains were the censors.
What they could do without being held back is my question.
Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building.
I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue.
Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.
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Old 08-08-2019, 11:28 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo View Post
Do you think that any one of the show's 193 episodes is objectively good/well-written?
I don't know about objective but some episodes, like Planet of the Turtleoids, are written in such an insane manner it's hard to not enjoy them. That's not objectively good or well written though.

In order for an episode to be well written, there are some basic criteria to determine that:
  • Are all crucial details to the plot established?
  • Are the characters bahaving in a way that is consistent?
  • Are they acting on information they have?
  • Is most of the scenes dedicated to the plot or establishing the crucial details?
There's probably more I could add to that list but it is a fair estimate of what's important to get right.

So what would be considered a poorly written episode according to these criteria could play out something like this:
Shredder has invented a freeze ray and goes around freezing stuff for the first half of the episode, while the turtles are seen cleaning their dojo. When the halway point of the episode has been reached, the turtles hear a bunch of stuff has been frozen without explaination, to which Leo responds with "I bet that rotten Shredder had something to do with this!". They drive around in their car for a while until they just find Shredder. He turns out to be too mighty with his freeze ray but then aliens show up and take the freeze ray away, declaring the technology to be in violation of some intergalactic treaty. The aliens then use their fire breath to thaw everything out and leave Shredder behind with a warning.

While that's not an actual episode, would you really be shocked if it was?
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Old 08-08-2019, 05:50 PM   #104
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I honestly believe that the FW series would be better if it didn't have season 4 + plus Euro vacation eps and a big chunk of season 3 as well.

Keep Season 1, 2, the best season 3 episodes, the planet of the turtleoids two parter, a handful of the best seasons 5-6 episodes(the ones with Rat King and/or Leatherhead, season 7 and the red sky seasons and you have a pretty solid show for what it is and for its time without any skippable episodes.
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:07 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by neatoman View Post
I wouldn't call it a gold standard by any mean, because season 1 isn't actually good. It just happens to have better pacing and some moments of decent animation, it was already mostly bad animation and nonsense writing.

The show still went downhill, it's just that most fans thinks it started on the top of Everest, when it really started on a compost pile and rolled down a hole near the base. It was always bad, it just got worse.
Ah yes, this is the thread for unpopular opinions.

When you say mostly bad animation be aware that the A or B team at Toei worked on Hot Rodding Teenagers from Dimension X along with some of the other Season 1 episodes. The only episode that could be considered to have bad animation is A Thing About Rats which had the C team working on it. You talk about being 'objective'. Those are facts which would be objective therefore you can't be right there.

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While I love the first season, I don't think the Original Cartoon lost its flare afterwards.
Seasons 2 and 3 were also great, and it was only sometime during season 4 that the show began to go downhill imo (it began improving once again in season 5 though).
I totally agree. Season 2 kept the same sort of story arcs and serious writing the first season had. When Jack Mendelson came on with Season 3 and started adding more comedy to the series that's when it started to suffer a bit. Season 3 in retrospect is in that weird position where as a result half the season episodes have serious fare like Turtles on Trial with the other half being stuff like Cowabunga Shredhead. With Season 4 and the slow switch to network episodes the comedic, camp aspects of the show mostly take full control. It's not until Season 7 when David Wise took over that the show returned to the style of at least Season 2 in tone. Season 8, 9 and 10 could be considered comparable to Season 1 in tone had the show evolved naturally.
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Old 08-30-2019, 01:13 PM   #106
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*Cracks knuckles* Ok it's been a while. But here goes
I kinda hate how much of a joke Shredder is in the old Toon. I'm rewatching it and man, dude gets owned way too much. He's Krang's bitch throughout the better part of season 2-3 so far and man its a bit jarring. I loved his portrayal in the first season though, but by the 2nd season he's making puns about dough-nets and getting beaten with pizza toppings. Got used to Shredder being an intimidating badass from 2k3-onward I guess.

2k3 Is my favorite toon so far, even though I've seen a few Rise episodes, I can't get behind the drastic character shifts and design. I haven't seen enough of the 2012 for them to challenge the 2k3 turtles, but that one is enjoyable from what I saw.

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I like Slash better than Zach as a 5th turtle.
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I like Jim Lawson's art best mainly in volume 1 of Mirage.
I like that it was like a soft reinterpretation of the Eastman and Laird style at first, then slowly morphed into something really blocky and stylized by Volume 2. Which is a real shame.

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The 2007 movie is the most unwatchable one for me, even more than the Bay films.
I've grown to really dislike this movie. BayTurtles had a lot of dumb stuff thrown in but they tried to do some fan service and include some good animation and fight scenes along with some classic OT villains Bebop, Rocksteady, Krang and Shredder. It was the closest to the OT that we'll ever get, and I maintain that if the Turtle designs were closer to their toon or comic counterparts and done with CGI/practical effects, then it would have been better received.
tmnt2k7 is a mess from start to finish that doesn't know what it wants to be and ends up feeling both really slow moving and unnecessarily rushed with the Foot being useless and Max Winters, the Stone Generals and 13 monsters being worse characters than Walker and Lord Norinaga (er whatever his name was in the 3rd movie). The best thing about this one IMO was the Leo vs Raph fight and the animation and voice work. Everything else was really bad. It's the shortest of the movies but feels like the biggest chore.

Also I never liked the Archie comics and actually prefer the ridiculous Image comics over them. IDW is a good Ultimate like universe, and the Mirage Volume 1 & 2 have a special place in my heart since they are what got me back into TMNT after the Next Mutation which kinda left a sour taste in my mouth.

The NES game is legitimately fun and enjoyable.
My fave TMNT beat em up is Manhattan Project, and yeah, TiT is a bit overrated.
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Old 08-30-2019, 02:18 PM   #107
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BayTurtles had a lot of dumb stuff thrown in but they tried to do some fan service and include some good animation and fight scenes along with some classic OT villains Bebop, Rocksteady, Krang and Shredder. It was the closest to the OT that we'll ever get, and I maintain that if the Turtle designs were closer to their toon or comic counterparts and done with CGI/practical effects, then it would have been better received.
Disagree about TMNT 2007, but I agree BayTurtles was the closest we’ll ever get to an adaptation of the OT. Could’ve been better, but they were decent enough films, even though they had flaws. Secret of the Ooze is the worst imo.
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Old 08-31-2019, 12:34 PM   #108
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TMNT is a better franchise than all of DC and Marvel combined.
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Old 08-31-2019, 12:58 PM   #109
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TMNT is a better franchise than all of DC and Marvel combined.
I'm sure you don't like it more than Pokemon though.
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Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87 View Post
The biggest villains were the censors.
What they could do without being held back is my question.
Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building.
I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue.
Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.
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Old 08-31-2019, 01:46 PM   #110
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I'm sure you don't like it more than Pokemon though.
I do actually since TMNT is my #1 and been with it the longest. Since pokemon is such a huge long lasting franchise, there's obviously parts of it I don't care for and I actually don't play the games all that much anymore.
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Old 08-31-2019, 04:05 PM   #111
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Disagree about TMNT 2007, but I agree BayTurtles was the closest we’ll ever get to an adaptation of the OT. Could’ve been better, but they were decent enough films, even though they had flaws. Secret of the Ooze is the worst imo.
What did you like about 2k7? Also I liked that SotO was like a cartoon with the best animatronics of all the movies IMO (their expressions were amazing and more catroony, while still having a bit of a griminess to them. And not once did I see an actor face behind a TMNT mask or wires coming out of their shells or a wierd overlayed background.) Now there is a lot of goofy trash in it, but for me, especially growing up, this one was one of my faves.
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Old 11-09-2019, 07:37 PM   #112
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So, I upgraded the TV to a 110' projector screen.

FINALLY got around to rewatching Out of the Shadows all the way through for the first time since it hit theaters.

Honestly, it's a VAST improvment over the first film. now that all the hub bub around it has died down..I can better analyze it objectively.

- Bebop and Rocksteady where well written and cast. Rocksteady was more interesting as a human though.

- Stephen Amell made a good Casey Jones. But THIS version of Casey Jones made no sense. Vigillante mode just appears. no real reason given.

- Fox did OK.


-Things that needed fixing. No Technodrome assembly. it should have appeared and started rolling over buildings. Krang is WAY overdesigned. The voices ALL needed recasting. Maybe keep Leo and Raph. The Turtles designs really sucked. Stockman did not appear or act smart at all and just read exposition.

-Things that worked. The Turtles revealing themselves to the Police First. I liked that they learned to accept each other and work together (albeit abit too easily). Bebop and Rocksteady characterized perfectly. Splinter looked far better this film and not nearly as gross.

If you take a way the things that didn't work, fixed the designs, one actress, and most of the voices.. I think the movie would have been much better received... ESPECIALLY if it came first. you almost don't need the first one at all now.
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Old 11-09-2019, 07:56 PM   #113
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Rise is better than seasons 2-5 of the Nick TMNT and does light hearted episode much better too.

2k12 Shredder was super uninteresting and one note

As much as I love the 2k3 version its animation is kinda bland with only the Bishop fight being the best thing about it.

Also I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion but Xever and Bradford were much better as humans than mutants.
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Old 11-09-2019, 08:11 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by PApagreg View Post
Rise is better than seasons 2-5 of the Nick TMNT and does light hearted episode much better too.

Also I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion but Xever and Bradford were much better as humans than mutants.
Other than the better comedy, I also find that Rise stands out all much more than the Nick show as its own thing, because of its focus on original characters.

That is not to say that Nick's decision to adapt other versions'characters was a inherently bad thing, but when I saw Nick Bebop and Rocksteady for example, the OT versions always come to mind and its glaringly obvious that B&R were added in the Nick toon for Nostalgia, first and foremost.
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Old 11-09-2019, 09:41 PM   #115
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Unpopular opinion? That gritty TMNT is just as bad an idea as Rise.
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Old 11-10-2019, 01:28 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neatoman View Post
I don't know about objective but some episodes, like Planet of the Turtleoids, are written in such an insane manner it's hard to not enjoy them. That's not objectively good or well written though.

In order for an episode to be well written, there are some basic criteria to determine that:
  • Are all crucial details to the plot established?
  • Are the characters bahaving in a way that is consistent?
  • Are they acting on information they have?
  • Is most of the scenes dedicated to the plot or establishing the crucial details?
There's probably more I could add to that list but it is a fair estimate of what's important to get right.

So what would be considered a poorly written episode according to these criteria could play out something like this:
Shredder has invented a freeze ray and goes around freezing stuff for the first half of the episode, while the turtles are seen cleaning their dojo. When the halway point of the episode has been reached, the turtles hear a bunch of stuff has been frozen without explaination, to which Leo responds with "I bet that rotten Shredder had something to do with this!". They drive around in their car for a while until they just find Shredder. He turns out to be too mighty with his freeze ray but then aliens show up and take the freeze ray away, declaring the technology to be in violation of some intergalactic treaty. The aliens then use their fire breath to thaw everything out and leave Shredder behind with a warning.

While that's not an actual episode, would you really be shocked if it was?
It reminds me of three episodes in the third season that had cop out endings that are embarrassing to me as a huge fan of the show. The first one is Ninja Sword To Nowhere with the aliens taking the sword increasing drama of Splinter being trapped forever, but it adds nothing and brings disappointment. Then there is the Curlee Maneuver a three stooges move that paralyzes the opponent and is only known by a true master of the Foot? All that build for that? Then there is Michelangelo's Birthday where the turtles are bloated like balloons and the only solution is using his faith Splinter cures them with moth balls? WHAT THE HECK? Bebop and Rocksteady competently captured Mike and he could have had an acid death, but it had a cop out solution? These three climaxes could have been done without a dumb joke to solve it all.
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Old 11-10-2019, 02:24 PM   #117
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Rise is better than seasons 2-5 of the Nick TMNT and does light hearted episode much better too.
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I respect what FW cartoon did for the turtles franchise but it is the most overrated and hard to watch of the 3 turtles cartoons.
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Old 11-10-2019, 02:42 PM   #118
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Hey at least I said season 2-5, one is still better.

Edit: You know looking back maybe I like season 2 as much as Rise

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Originally Posted by LeotheLateBloomer View Post
I'm curious to know why some users here like Rise but dislike the OT.
Its a product of its time and as someone who doesn't care for 80s cartoons(with the exception of Jem, Tiny Toons and maybe Ducktales) it doesn't have much for me.
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Old 11-12-2019, 05:14 AM   #119
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Its a product of its time and as someone who doesn't care for 80s cartoons(with the exception of Jem, Tiny Toons and maybe Ducktales) it doesn't have much for me.
Tiny Toons is 90s but close enough. Your opinion on Rise over FW is fair enough.
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Old 11-13-2019, 12:13 AM   #120
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Parts of 2k12 were OK past the 2nd season. I think if all of the crappy episodes were taken out, this show would be about 3 seasons long.

I hate the semi-traditional dystopian endings. I don't care if Mirage did it, they suck. What's the point of getting invested in heroes if you know they are going to be nothing but giant impotent failures every single time for 'the dark 'n gritty realism'?

Multiverses suck. The idea of a 'Turtleverse' 'Turtle Prime' and whatever hardcore cringy poodoo that is nothing more then a translucent attempt to copy off of Marvel and DC is just frankly, eye-rollingly lulzy. Trying to add in 'serious comics' elements after the franchise is still perma-stuck in little kid land makes me roll my eyes so hard. It's no longer the old classic Mirage. It's now just a fancy toy commercial made to sell some low grade polyvinyl toys from Communist China.
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