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Old 03-21-2020, 01:15 AM   #341
MsMarvelDuckie
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Chinese medicine and traditions are really a whole other issue, honestly. MOST wild animals in traditional Chinese holistic medicine are killed for their presumed medicinal value, such as treating ED, blood pressure, and the like. While they do also view many animals as edible that we would not normally think of as such, they are usually fish, fowl, or predatory mammals like tigers, etc. Cats, dogs, and yes, primates, too. And the government there probably COULD tell them to stop such practices, but won't. They are deeply tradition-oriented as a people, even those who are ostensibly more modern and "enlightened" as we think of it, so they simply don't care to stop it. Besides, a lot of it is illegally caught and sold by poachers, often with the government's turning a blind eye due to corruption and even direct involvement. They just don't care.

As Voltron already pointed out- and I mentioned as well- Swine flu came from a very similar virus, and THAT one started in the US from *gasp* pigs! And by "unwittingly", I meant the PEOPLE, not the government. Further, it's not so much the KINDS of animals being sold (though species we rarely come in contact with may be more likely to host new strains of viruses) as it is the way those animals are caged and kept. Packed into tiny containers stacked on top of each other, and crowded into small spaces where one animal can transfer pathogens to many others. But the REAL problems start when those pathogens mutate to transfer to humans. That is what this one did. We are used to our own strains of flu and others whose RNA matches our own coding, so we have resistance to them. But this one does not. Thus it is highly dangerous because we have NO coding for it to develop immunity. And that's the problem. It is NEW. And what is scarier is that it did in weeks what usually takes months or years. So, yeah, it's irrelevant WHERE the disease originated, what IS important is its rapid genetic shift.
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Old 03-21-2020, 01:22 AM   #342
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Spanish flu also originated in Kansas, apparently.

Also, calling it the Chinese flu because Chinese people eat bats is like calling this the Conservative Pandemic because right wing policies left us unprepared.

There are also people on this board who may be of Chinese descent, and calling them savages isn't appropriate in the least, given the increase in hate crimes against them.

It's a racist play, pure and simple.

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Originally Posted by Andrew NDB
Can you really say "unwittingly" of the Chinese government when #1, they continued to allow the trapping/sale/eating of wild animals beforehand, and #2, this was after the outbreak/emergence of similar viruses already resulted from said activities?

This is a government that stepped in once and was able to enforce a "1 child per household" edict, country-wide and for years. I'm pretty sure they could (largely) get their people to stop eating bats.
You'd think, but it's not that simple. As you've pointed out, a mandatory, statewide quarantine is unenforceable. So is banning sex among millions of people.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/one-child-policy

Turns out, the rural areas (where the bat eating "savagery" occurs) is a lot harder to police. In addition, I'm point out that rural areas in the United States often have peculiar diets in comparison to suburban and urban areas.

1. Rocky Mountain oysters. (bull testicles)

2. Burgoo (some recipes call for road kill)

3. Fried rattlesnake (obvious)

4. Chitterlings (pig intestines)

5. Frog legs


And this isn't to mention that other cultures view eating pork as savage. So coming down on people for dietary differences is a dangerous argument, as we're often guilty of the same oddities.

In addition, eating anything can cause the transference of some lethal disease. Mad cow disease came about because we decided to feed cow meat to cows in order to cut down on costs.

If you want real terror, take a look into that. The resulting prions are completely incurable and 100% fatal. Add to this that they might be inside all of us right now waiting to activate because we're not certain how pervasive the practice of bovine cannibalism was, and you're in for a poor night of sleep.

Using the logic:

Premise: People's behavior is primarily responsible for the rise of disease.

Premise: People caused the spread of prions due to capitalist behavior.

Conclusion: Capitalism causes disease.

I'm sure you understand this isn't true. But using that same logic, you've arrived at laying the blame at the feet of people living in the Chinese countryside.

And what do you get out of it? What do you win? People aren't going to stop doing it. Making fun of them isn't going to embarrass them into not eating bats or lizards or spiders or whatever the hell else they're eating.

It does cause people of Asian descent to face increase discrimination. These are American citizens that are being put in very real danger because some of us need to really drive a point home.

And it doesn't hurt anyone to stop saying the "Chinese Virus". But it does hurt people to keep doing it.

If you need a demonstration of how needless and pointless it is to throw the blame at people, I could change the name of this thread to the "Conservative Pandemic" and see how certain people respond to that. It wouldn't go well, I'm sure, as people would right point out that while connections can be made, the act of holding conservative viewpoints don't make someone complicit with the actions of people who give that particular label a bad name.

I'm not saying you're wrong to be frustrated. I'm saying that there are more constructive ways to take out that frustration.
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Last edited by Voltron; 03-21-2020 at 02:28 AM.
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Old 03-21-2020, 02:30 AM   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltron View Post
Turns out, the rural areas (where the bat eating "savagery" occurs) is a lot harder to police. In addition, I'm point out that rural areas in the United States often have peculiar diets in comparison to suburban and urban areas.
But, and I haven't Googled this much so I could be way off base, the understanding I have is that China has wrestled with whether they do or don't police the eating of wild animals such as bats. At the present, it is allowed and was allowed to happen, is my basic understanding. No? Was it truly people going rogue eating bats, against the law? And even if so, wouldn't regular patrols of known areas of said wild animal eateries have curtailed this?

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And it doesn't hurt anyone to stop saying the "Chinese Virus". But it does hurt people to keep doing it.
No, it doesn't hurt anyone to stop saying that. But does it really help anything to not? Because it's not an incorrect phrase. It's not a "helpful" phrase, but it's not invalid. It does illustrate in three words that this was a thing that came into our country by another country's non-unwitting negligence... perhaps angrily. But we're all angry right now. But it does underscore the fact, and it's demonstrably true.

The separate argument is, "Should the president really use those mean words?" Personally, no. He shouldn't. It's mean and obviously used for a certain reaction, that he's getting. Though the reactions from everyone on the left don't make me laugh, they just make me kind of sigh and go, "Ugh. They took the bait." Which is a sad thing to do in this day and time. I mean, I'm allowed to chuckle... I'll likely lose my job next week. But it's still funny.

At the end of the day we're all hurting together. And that's what kind of makes this all somewhat bearable. It'll get better.
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Old 03-21-2020, 02:47 AM   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew NDB View Post
But, and I haven't Googled this much so I could be way off base, the understanding I have is that China has wrestled with whether they do or don't police the eating of wild animals such as bats. At the present, it is allowed and was allowed to happen, is my basic understanding. No? Was it truly people going rogue eating bats, against the law? And even if so, wouldn't regular patrols of known areas of said wild animal eateries have curtailed this?
I wouldn't even know where to start looking for that information. Suffice to say, China is one of the largest countries by landmass in the world. Policing the entirety of it is impossible. Not to mention that people from Beijing or Shanghai, who may be less inclined to partake in and more willing to police the eating of wild game probably aren't eager to move out to the middle of nowhere to stop it.

EDIT: Ok, I did some looking. There's a lot of weird (likely biased) info out there, and nothing is conclusive.

USA Today says maybe, but it's unlikely that bats were the culprit.

Scientific American posits that it could have come from our proximity to pigs.

This website, Foreign Policy, I've never heard of and has an ad for China right there on the page. They say that the initial infected had no contact with the wet market sited as the origin source.

In the end, we don't know. Bats are a likely culprit, but the consumption of them isn't 100% the cause. Jury is still out.


Quote:
No, it doesn't hurt anyone to stop saying that. But does it really help anything to not? Because it's not an incorrect phrase. It's not a "helpful" phrase, but it's not invalid. It does illustrate in three words that this was a thing that came into our country by another country's non-unwitting negligence... perhaps angrily. But we're all angry right now. But it does underscore the fact, and it's demonstrably true.
I'm wary of giving anyone a cause to label an entire group of people. It never leads to a good place. The Chinese virus came from Chinese people eating bats. Mass shootings came from gun owners who are crazy.

Same sentiment. Is it true? Well, kind of. Sure. But you'd be quick to bemoan the political downsides of vilifying every gun owner for the actions of a few. Why insist upon doing it ever, then? How often does it actually pan out that EVERYONE in a subgroup is guilty of the same thing?

Quote:
The separate argument is, "Should the president really use those mean words?" Personally, no. He shouldn't. It's mean and obviously used for a certain reaction, that he's getting. Though the reactions from everyone on the left don't make me laugh, they just make me kind of sigh and go, "Ugh. They took the bait." Which is a sad thing to do in this day and time. I mean, I'm allowed to chuckle... I'll likely lose my job next week. But it's still funny.
I'm sorry to hear that man. Not to proselytize, but this is why I argue for social programs. I know people view it as "fwee eweyfing" but it's not. It's for situations like this where people are unable to work and NEED social infrastructure in place to continue living.

Not welfare queens. Not moochers. People who fall upon hard times despite a healthy work ethic.

Quote:
At the end of the day we're all hurting together. And that's what kind of makes this all somewhat bearable. It'll get better.
It's cool. I'm willing and happy to suffer with you. But this looks kind of grim.

I got a buddy who went to school for journalism and landed a job reporting on medical conferences. He's been talking to some people in the field. This may last for some time. . .

Apparently, the severity of coronavirus has forced our hand. Clinical vaccine trials have started on human subjects. That's insanely fast for science. Seems the labs may have even skipped animal testing.

Unfortunately, for as fast as that's happened, the monitoring can't be rushed. Word is we need a solid year or so until this vaccine gets the all clear for widespread use.

Meanwhile, this social distancing is all we have. And it may continue until we get a decent vaccine in play.
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Last edited by Voltron; 03-21-2020 at 03:01 AM.
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Old 03-21-2020, 04:26 AM   #345
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My grandfather in law was just placed in ICU. Pneumonia. He's unconscious and probably won't survive the night.

I say this for 3 reasons:

1. The danger is real.

2. Take care of yourself.

3. This doesn't change my argument in the slightest.

Also, SOMEONE needs a time out.
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Old 03-21-2020, 04:54 AM   #346
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WHO made rules back in 2015 about giving diseases names that can stigmatize or insult people, places or animals.
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Old 03-21-2020, 10:12 AM   #347
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Also, it's not like bats (or pangolins as also, if nor more-so, suspected) are the only creatures that are capable of passing viruses to humans. We live in a world full of other species that very well could. Imagine how people here in the U.S. would completely lose their crap if told the government wanted to completely end people's ability to hunt and the world points a finger at American hunters who went and picked up a virus that was transmitted by, say, deer. The outrage that would occur... Screams about a way of life...

And what's to stop a virus from mutating and passing across domestic animals and then even onto us if it played its cards right? Some cultures don't see dogs as animals that should be kept in the home, so imagine being demonized for starting some dog to human virus pandemic and being told we should stop keeping house pets.

I mean, to most of us bats seem weird and gross to want to eat, but there is hardly anything special about them vs any other creature on this planet that a virus could manage to pass from them to us. Esp when you have animals like pigs that are supposedly by far more susceptible to picking up viruses and then giving them to us.



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My grandfather in law was just placed in ICU. Pneumonia. He's unconscious and probably won't survive the night.
Sorry to hear that.
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Old 03-21-2020, 12:46 PM   #348
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I'm sorry about your grandfather, Voltron.
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Old 03-21-2020, 02:12 PM   #349
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Would be nice if we had an actual functioning President handling this crisis. But no we get stuck with the orange idiot and his cronies .
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Old 03-21-2020, 02:54 PM   #350
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Closed until we can all behave ourselves.
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