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Old 01-19-2018, 09:14 PM   #1
The Master Meglomaniac
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Most Sympathetic and Least Sympathetic TMNT Villains?

Who are the most sympathetic villains in TMNT? Who are the least sympathetic villains in TMNT?

Keep in mind, I am talking about the entire franchise, anyone from any comic book, movie, cartoon, video game, etc is fair game.
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Old 01-19-2018, 09:42 PM   #2
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Baxter Stockman is the most sympathetic.

Everything bad happens to him every time in every incarnation except IDW. He's the world's whipping boy.

Surgically removed his own brain to implant it into a cybernetic robot? Check.
Blown half up and left hanging on Donatello's dungeon wall for over a decade? Check.
Blinded, crippled, reduced to a head in a jar? Check.
Reduced further to a brain in a jar? Check.
Trapped in a rotting corpse-like body? Check.
Grafted into an alien squid thing? Check.
Mutated into a fly a ridiculous number of times? Check.
Checked into a mental institution for believing in giant talking turtles? Check.

My man Stockman better stay in IDW and keep Bobby Curnow on his good side... he's thoroughly screwed everywhere else.
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:12 PM   #3
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Baxter Stockman is the most sympathetic.

Everything bad happens to him every time in every incarnation except IDW. He's the world's whipping boy.

Surgically removed his own brain to implant it into a cybernetic robot? Check.
Blown half up and left hanging on Donatello's dungeon wall for over a decade? Check.
Blinded, crippled, reduced to a head in a jar? Check.
Reduced further to a brain in a jar? Check.
Trapped in a rotting corpse-like body? Check.
Grafted into an alien squid thing? Check.
Mutated into a fly a ridiculous number of times? Check.
Checked into a mental institution for believing in giant talking turtles? Check.

My man Stockman better stay in IDW and keep Bobby Curnow on his good side... he's thoroughly screwed everywhere else.
Too be fair Mirage Stockman is pretty unsympathetic, he put his brain into a cyborg on purpose, killed a bunch of people for petty revenge, infected April with nanobots, terrorized NYC for fun, etc. He deserved his fate. Most other versions of Stockman are sympathetic though.

Most versions of Karai are pretty sympathetic. The Nano monster from the 2003 cartoon was pretty sympathetic and Slash from the 2012 cartoon developed from a creepy villain to a hero over time. The 2012 version of Mutagen Man was pitiable, a shame nothing really happened with him.

Even the original Mirage Shredder is one of the more sympathetic versions of the character, really he became a villain to avenge his brother, that is a more sympathetic motive then Shredder usual gets.

In terms of truly evil TMNT villains, there are a fair amount: Utrom Shredder, Tengu Shredder, 87 Dregg, Mirage Skonk and Savanti Romero, Archie Mr. Null, the Nick versions of Rat King, Krang and Kavaxas are all define by ruthless cruelty in one way or another.
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:20 PM   #4
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IDW's Mutagen Man is very high on the sympathetic list. Poor guy breaks my heart.

Ch'rell I can't sympathize with at all. Dude's pure evil for the hell of it. IDW Shredder too, I suppose. I like that in a villain, though.
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:20 PM   #5
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Ehh you can argue that most of the bad stuff that happens to 2k3 Baxter is what he deserved after losing a few too many body parts you would think he would just leave the turtles alone but the man never learns. Though his Fred Wolf counterpart is actually deserve sympathy.

I second Nano from the 2k3 version, sure he got a happy ending but his episodes still make me tear up a bit.
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:46 PM   #6
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IDW Mutagen man isn't really a villain, though? He might be teamed up with the Mutanimals, but he doesn't seem entirely comfortable going along with what they do. He's just happy to have some friends.

IDW Krang got halfway there, until he trashed any chance of empathy with doing the exact same sh*t to others that happened to his people. Which by any logic should also trash his chances of protecting what's left of them, because it would make them a great big target. He lost like...half his marbles in the effort and look where that got him.

But maaaan, someone just give 23K Stockman a nice big painting of a beach over relaxing music to stare at a good while. It's probably the one thing that would probably give him at least some mental peace. Can't exactly wrap him in a blanket and give him some hot chocolate.

23K Karai has some points, but it really could have been worked on some more writing-wise. It could have further developed flashbacks of her adoption, why she was abandoned, further looked into her one-on-ones with Ch'rell. Who also could have had at least some kind of "tragic backstory", but there was more interest in making him a Villain Sue. This person had a pretty good idea of what could have worked as a backstory. But, 4Kids being 4Kids, didn't really have a lot of interest in having some points on the villain side that maybe the heroes should have a good "sit down and think" over. Hopefully IDW Ch'rell will do something more productive in his classic Rage Ranting.

On some level, I can see where IDW Shredder has empathetic zones, since he's basically been used like a puppet by Kitsune his entire life (and previous life) to suit her own ends. His life isn't really his own; everything has been planned for him and there was no way for him to take his fate into his own hands without stumbling into what was set for him one way or another. Whatever way he could go, Kitsune would have ultimately controlled him. And now even in death, he's basically being used for her own weird issues with Daddy being gone from the mortal plane. And considering that she married him...things are a lot more weird.


But if there's anyone I feel pretty terrible for at this moment, it's IDW Karai.
She worked herself to the bone to do some Ninja Clan necromancy, literally bled to ensure its resurrection to the fullest, and what thanks did she get? She was belittled, cast aside as Chunin and replaced by some kid (I assume she's in her mid-twenties), and eventually lost complete control of something that she put blood, sweat, and tears into reviving.
You go on making your own group, girl.


Most of the TMNT villains across all boards seem to suffer from this:
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:10 PM   #7
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IDW Mutagen man isn't really a villain, though? He might be teamed up with the Mutanimals, but he doesn't seem entirely comfortable going along with what they do. He's just happy to have some friends.

IDW Krang got halfway there, until he trashed any chance of empathy with doing the exact same sh*t to others that happened to his people. Which by any logic should also trash his chances of protecting what's left of them, because it would make them a great big target. He lost like...half his marbles in the effort and look where that got him.

But maaaan, someone just give 23K Stockman a nice big painting of a beach over relaxing music to stare at a good while. It's probably the one thing that would probably give him at least some mental peace. Can't exactly wrap him in a blanket and give him some hot chocolate.

23K Karai has some points, but it really could have been worked on some more writing-wise. It could have further developed flashbacks of her adoption, why she was abandoned, further looked into her one-on-ones with Ch'rell. Who also could have had at least some kind of "tragic backstory", but there was more interest in making him a Villain Sue. This person had a pretty good idea of what could have worked as a backstory. But, 4Kids being 4Kids, didn't really have a lot of interest in having some points on the villain side that maybe the heroes should have a good "sit down and think" over. Hopefully IDW Ch'rell will do something more productive in his classic Rage Ranting.

On some level, I can see where IDW Shredder has empathetic zones, since he's basically been used like a puppet by Kitsune his entire life (and previous life) to suit her own ends. His life isn't really his own; everything has been planned for him and there was no way for him to take his fate into his own hands without stumbling into what was set for him one way or another. Whatever way he could go, Kitsune would have ultimately controlled him. And now even in death, he's basically being used for her own weird issues with Daddy being gone from the mortal plane. And considering that she married him...things are a lot more weird.


But if there's anyone I feel pretty terrible for at this moment, it's IDW Karai.
She worked herself to the bone to do some Ninja Clan necromancy, literally bled to ensure its resurrection to the fullest, and what thanks did she get? She was belittled, cast aside as Chunin and replaced by some kid (I assume she's in her mid-twenties), and eventually lost complete control of something that she put blood, sweat, and tears into reviving.
You go on making your own group, girl.


Most of the TMNT villains across all boards seem to suffer from this:
http://78.media.tumblr.com/16ad36639...xqz1o1_500.png
There is nothing wrong with a villain who is just an ''A hole'', some of the best villains in fiction are compelling due to how vile they are, it depends on how you handle them:

The Emperor from Star wars, Freddy Kruger, many versions of Joker and the Red Skull, are all pure evil and can be compelling.

I think a good story can have room for both sympathetic villains and unsympathetic villains, different villains of different morality levels can play off each other and different stories require different types of villains. I like Utrom Shredder, sure he is just pure evil, but he is one of the most epic threats the Turtles have faced and his ruthlessness and cruelty are a big reason why he is such an unstoppable threat.

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Old 01-19-2018, 11:18 PM   #8
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Most of them still had some pretty complex backstories. I think it's just what you do with the a-holeness that makes it work.

Comparing 23K Ch'rell to Palpatine is probably going to give Palpatine the win. Mostly because I think Palpatine is more intimidating, partly because unlike Ch'rell, he was able to succeed in his goals for a good while.

You can have an "a-hole villain", but sometimes that can be detrimental to the characterization. Such is the case with 23K Ch'rell. He was...one-note, shall we say.
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:31 PM   #9
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All incarnations of Stockman that I'm familiar with, dude just can't catch a break, even when he is indeed evil he still gets it so much worse than the average villain that you can't help but feel bad for him.
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:34 PM   #10
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I think Nick Shredder was pretty sympathetic. I know he did some pretty horrible things, but he honestly felt different from the other Shredder's who knew they were evil and didn't care.

Nick Shredder believed he was right all the time and lied to himself so much that he became a victim to his own lies. I find it pretty sad actually how he had basically trapped himself in a never ending vicious cycle.

Even in his worst moment as Super Shredder, when fighting Leonardo in the final battle, he hesitated for a moment when Leonardo called him a monster and a demon. Its really subtle and well done.
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The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question. Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue. Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:47 PM   #11
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Most of them still had some pretty complex backstories. I think it's just what you do with the a-holeness that makes it work.

Comparing 23K Ch'rell to Palpatine is probably going to give Palpatine the win. Mostly because I think Palpatine is more intimidating, partly because unlike Ch'rell, he was able to succeed in his goals for a good while.

You can have an "a-hole villain", but sometimes that can be detrimental to the characterization. Such is the case with 23K Ch'rell. He was...one-note, shall we say.
Ch'rell took over the world in the future, killed millions of beings through out the galaxy and almost destroyed reality, that's pretty good track record.

Palpatine is just pure evil at the end of the day and really there are tons of villains who fit that same type, whether they work or not depends on the story:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...CompleteMonste
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Old 01-20-2018, 12:00 AM   #12
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IDW's Mutagen Man is very high on the sympathetic list. Poor guy breaks my heart.
I don't know if I'd ever call him a villain.
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Old 01-20-2018, 03:46 AM   #13
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Krang.
Archie Krang was extremely brutal. He destroyed entire planets in Dimension X, killing all lifeforms on them.
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Old 01-20-2018, 07:09 AM   #14
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I find Mirage Shredder being very sympathetic as he is the hero in his own story. The guy trained from age 8 to 18 to become one of the best in the Foot to avenge the death of his brother, and he did avenge what he probably thought was a great man.
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Old 01-20-2018, 08:17 AM   #15
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Least sympathetic, I guess Ch'rell is a good choice in that case. His motivation is basically wanting to get revenge for being sentanced, a sentance he got for commiting genocide and other planetary atricities, simply in the name of his ego. You don't much more unsympathetic than that.

Most sympathetic is a harder one, does the original Rat King, Leatherhead, Zog or Old Hob count? Rat King just wanted to be left alone, Leatherhead was just angry at the end of the day, Zog didn't know what he was doing and Hob does questionable things but none of these really feel like villains.

If I had to pick an actual villain, I guess IDW Hun? He is an abusive father, alcoholic and crime boss. He's clearly not a good person, nor does he really try to be, but you get the feeling he knows what he does is wrong and isn't happy about it. Instead of trying to better himself in a healthy way, he just tries to substitute awful behaviour for other awful behaviour. He's this ****ed up kind of person who do exist in the real world, so it doesn't feel forced like an attempt to make a villain sympathetic tends to do.
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Old 01-20-2018, 10:08 AM   #16
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Ive never read the comics, but Id say OT Baxter Stockman, OT Shredder and Max Winters (from Tmnt 2007) are the most sympathetic while Utrom Shredder, 1990 movie Shredder and Lord Dregg are the least sympathetic.
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Old 01-20-2018, 10:10 AM   #17
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Surgically removed his own brain to implant it into a cybernetic robot? Check.
Archie's Verminator X did such things, not for being wounded but for inmortality.
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Old 01-20-2018, 12:15 PM   #18
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OT Shredder
Sympathetic is not the same thing as pathetic. He's a loser who can't wield his power correctly but that doesn't mean we feel sorry for him any way, he still wants to take over the world for no good reason and it's never implied there's anything remotely tragic about him.
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Old 01-20-2018, 12:26 PM   #19
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Yeah, he was a comedic villain. Nothing sad about him although I did find him very likeable.
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The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question. Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue. Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.
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Old 01-20-2018, 12:36 PM   #20
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Sympathetic is not the same thing as pathetic. He's a loser who can't wield his power correctly but that doesn't mean we feel sorry for him any way, he still wants to take over the world for no good reason and it's never implied there's anything remotely tragic about him.
When you put it like that, you’re right, neatoman. He was a likable villain, though.
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