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View Poll Results: Your opinion? | |||
Yes | 27 | 36.49% | |
No | 47 | 63.51% | |
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll |
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04-19-2015, 12:23 PM | #1 |
*The King of Nothing*
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Do you think Raph is getting enough character/central focus?
Since the official thread is getting clogged up, I thought I should make a new thread to discuss all the problems regarding Raph's treatment within the show. Please, discuss below.
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04-19-2015, 01:07 PM | #2 |
Mad Scientist
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He seemed to have a lot of good moments in the first season, but after that (maybe even after the first half of the first season), he's been thrown to the side, almost as a background character. Now, he's more the butt of every Mikey joke than anything. I'd appreciate a character arc on him, and even though we're getting a Dark Raph plot, that's too little too late for the Raph fans.
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04-19-2015, 01:22 PM | #3 |
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I didn't think Raph got that much focus in season 1 but does have more focus in season 2.
If I hadn't known about the Dark Raph Story was happening, then I would have said he hasn't had any focus in season 3 but hearing about it and that the mind control story is the 2nd half of season 3 main arc then I expect he will get a lot more focus.
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04-19-2015, 01:41 PM | #4 |
Mad Scientist
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I voted no. He most definitely is not and as a Raph fan it's frustrating.
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04-19-2015, 02:14 PM | #5 |
Foot Soldier
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A main character needs a good balance of not just screentime, but importance to the plot and personal growth in some way. At this point in the show, Leo, Donnie and April have been getting character arcs and personal conflicts that last beyond one episode that contribute to the central story since the beginning (which is great), but they easily overshadow Raph and Mikey in that regard. Whenever Raph and Mikey get some character focus, it stops after one episode, peters out or doesn't amount to anything.
My frustrations with Raph and Mikey's handling compared to the other turtles is like my frustration with all the turtles compared to Leo in the 2k3 cartoon. This show is doing much better in terms of good, quality focus and balance, but it could do better. Which is why I'm glad Raph is getting this Dark Raph arc soon, and that I'm hoping Mikey gets something substantial as well. |
04-19-2015, 02:22 PM | #6 | |
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04-19-2015, 01:49 PM | #7 |
Team Blue Boy
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I wouldn't necessarily say he's being mistreated, per se, and he's had decent small moments here and there, but for the most part for a while he's just kinda been... there. Present and still important at times as the muscle, but not a whole lot of interest happening. He does need some kind of ongoing storyline that centers on him and continues to be visited, much the way that Karai's story continues over time; the Donnie/April/Casey thing, etc. And more-so than just a focus on needing to learn to control his anger... because that's just simply who he is and that probably won't actually get anywhere. He wouldn't be the same grumpy little bugger Raph fans and TMNT fans in general know and love if he wasn't.
The loss of Casey as largely his friend has really kind of left him treading water in this series. They need to tap into more of what they'd started with when Raph and Casey first met. And it's too bad Spike/Slash moved on so fast to his own thing largely disconnected from Raph... they could have done something with that, esp in a way that Slash could have continued to regard Raph as someone important, given that he had probably been like a pet-parent over Spike for years. |
04-19-2015, 01:57 PM | #8 |
Foot Soldier
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I think while he doesn't have the most focus, his episodes that are focused on him are very good and are some of the best episodes...a lot better than the other characters
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04-19-2015, 01:58 PM | #9 | |||
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04-19-2015, 02:44 PM | #10 | |
Control Your Narrative
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As for other qualities, I agree massively, but I'd keep Raph's anger and emotions, but limit them more. Focus more on other qualities like you mentioned Warhorse, such as his wit or assistance. Raph has potential as a character that isn't entirely explored with abilities nor characteristics; the producers should do that.
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04-19-2015, 01:55 PM | #11 |
Control Your Narrative
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Apologies for a long post, but I have a bit to say on this. I'm happy there's a thread for this now. Anyways, I'd yes and no for Raphael for several reasons:
Yes (agreement): Interacting with other characters- Raph has gotten a bit of this with Spider Bytes, Fishface, and especially Slash when it came to opposing sides as well as Mikey and his signature friendship with Casey and feud with Leo. Slash and Destroy still remains a favorite episode of mine from season 2 and the show so far because of Raph developing more of accepting where's he usually gets angry at the antics of his family. The brotherly love between him and Michelangelo is still there along with the feud with Leo. Interactions seem okay for the most part, but need better development with certain elements like Donatello besides teasing and the budding friendship with Casey hasn't occurred too much yet. Moments- Besides the sarcastic remarks made ("Is this a rescue or a romantic comedy?"), the cool, but rude member of the team has had a few memorable moments seen in the show. It could be that hug from Mikey in The Invasion or coming to terms with his anger in both Turtle Temper and The Good, The Bad, and Casey Jones. These moments might be limited for Raph when compared to other characters, but they are notable in their own right. Anyways, let's take a look at the negatives: No (disagreement): Little focus against enemies- Outside having the fewest character centered episodes Turtle wise, Raph really has no enemies to fight. Leo had Karai, have Shredder, Mikey has Rahzar, Casey now has Hun, and Donnie has a bit with the Kraang and a small extent Baxter. The enemies Raph has haven't been built on or have lost steam: Slash: The two have made peace a little too early in my opinion and it could have been a very personal feud. It reminds me of the game Blaster Master, where Jason had to fight his mutated frog Fred. Either way, the interactions between these two are one of my personal favorites of this series, but the conflict could have been developed more. Spider Bytes: Minor antagonist with only two appearances who only severed as a character episode for Raph. Spy-Roach: A filler villain which showcases the phobia Raph has of insects. Fishface: Since it can be seen the Turtles have gotten stronger over the seasons so far, Xever isn't a challenge. Considering what happened in Baxter's Gambit with Xever explaining his past, there could have been an opportunity to build off that to make these guys rivals, possibly in a "friendly" sort of way. (They'd still despise each other, but have a little respect for one another) Episode-wise- When it comes to legitimate episodes, this is where I disagree. Raphael only has a small handful of actual episode development. The ones where he's a main focus are as followed (I also added in a few that might not qualify entirely, but deserve mention): Season 1: Turtle Temper- As the first of the five character development episodes leading to The Gauntlet, it demonstrated a signature of the character no matter the version: his anger. Solid episode to begin Raph's development as a character. New Girl in Town- The episode which builds off the brotherly feud of the older brothers. While Leo struggles with Karai, the secondary plot has Raph leading Mikey and Donnie to stopping Snakeweed after questioning Leo's authority at the beginning. It comes to terms by Raph that being leader isn't all he thought it was, another sign of growth. Cockroach Terminator- A filler episode for Raph's phobia of insects, nothing too big for the character. (it did give some funny moments of this season though between him and Mikey ) Baxter's Gambit (to a small extent)- This I'm on the fence about, but still label it a Raph episode to a small extent. I'd label it as it has Raph forcing to work with Fishface while the other brothers got Bradford. Season 2: Slash and Destroy- Just going to say this is possibly the best episode with Raph as the main character. It builds off Spike turning into Slash and obeying Raph's words like a "good" pet. It comes to terms with Raph caring for his family while also battling the pet he cared for overtime. Pretty dark episode for season 2's beginning and introduces Slash strongly while building off everything Raph has done to this point. The Good, the Bad, and Casey Jones- Back to back strong episodes for the hothead with him coming to terms with his anger again. It does introduce the bond that Raphael gets with Casey,showing it as a friendly battle between the two before establishing them as a powerful team when they battle the Foot-Bots. Newtralized!- Builds off the plotline with Slash and the relationship with Casey and Raph. It still felt like a disappointment to me as an episode as I expected a little too much, but it once more contributes to Raph's interactions with others. Plan 10- The swapping of the brains allows Raph to see what is happening with the Kraang. Though Raphael is in the spotlight, it is more of a buildup episode for The Invasion and gives Nolan North a return as Raph since the 2007 film. Fun little episode overall. Season 3: Vision Quest- Since this is the last episode before going back to New York, it made sense all four were going to get some focus as a team. If you could tell though, the farm episodes didn't have a Raph-centered episode at all while everyone else did. Though a good episode that gives some awesome fighting and showing Raph's anger again, it could have been built on more. Either way, all the Turtles got equal screen time for this particular episode. Casey Jones VS. The Underworld- Although Casey was the center focus here, it does add more to the friendship that Raph and Casey. In total, of the 66 episodes shown so far, Raph has gotten a total of 7 episodes relating him as a major focus, 8 storyline wise when Vision Quest is counted, and 10 overall with Cockroach Terminator and the small extent of Baxter's Gambit. This is where the hothead has been downplayed to develop the other characters. While Donnie and Leo have developed well and Mikey getting most of the filler episodes, it leaves Raph out compared to his brothers. It would make sense as Raph has been a central focus in certain eras of the franchise such as the 1990 movie, TMNT, and TMNT 2014. Heck, he's been a focus since the beginning with the cartoons and comics as well the more you look at them. Remember, because he's also Kevin Eastman's favorite Turtle (I might be wrong here), he's normally going to get a lot of spotlight. Overall, I think while Raph has gotten a good amount of screen time, but I feel he should have a few more episodes (at least 3) to develop his character more. So far, it seems Ciro wants to develop the brothers into the heroes we know and love: Leo as a strong leader, Donnie as a pacifist, and maturing Mikey. Wherever the road is taken, I'm looking forward to it for my personal favorite Turtle, especially the mind-controlled episode. (assuming the plot expands until near the end of the season)
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04-20-2015, 12:19 AM | #12 | |
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It's Raph's jab at Donnie's relationship with April that gets Donnie to go out and prove he his brother wrong. And in the end he makes up for the incident by giving Donnie all the credit for the Rescue of Kirby O'Neil |
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04-20-2015, 12:41 AM | #13 | ||
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My heart!!!! One of my favourite moments. Last edited by Vicky82; 04-20-2015 at 12:49 AM. |
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04-20-2015, 07:23 AM | #14 | |
Control Your Narrative
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Vicky, fair point with Raph here in Mazes and Mutants. It makes me think a little of "you can believe want you to believe in" as a moral. However, this is one episode I really didn't know what to qualify as who it focuses on character-wise besides it being fun filler.
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Last edited by GoldMutant; 04-20-2015 at 02:01 PM. |
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04-20-2015, 01:18 PM | #15 |
Mad Scientist
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To me, it's not that he doesn't have focus, it's that the focus he does have is not as meaningful as that given to Don and Leo and to a lesser extent, Mikey.
Raphael's exposure feels like wasted potential. 1) As a character he is traditionally something of a tortured soul, which would provide some great scope for compelling storytelling. So far, beside the odd temper tantrum, we've not been shown this side of Raph; 2) Sean Astin has a fantastic range and is one of our truly great actors. The work he has done is brilliant, but he is not being utilised to his full capacity; 3) Raphael-centric storylines seem to involve him turning into stuff... A Kraang, a turkey, a frickin' FLOWER. This dilutes the impact of his development because from a visual perspective it's not Raphael we see undertaking the journey. I'll hold comment until the Dark Raph stuff is in play, but really the part of me which gets emotional catharsis from TMNT just wants to see Raph in emotional crisis. Not that I'm a sadist or anything, but for me, that has always been the role he represents in the group: angst, alienation, anger that runs deeper and more profoundly than just having a short fuse.
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04-19-2015, 04:26 PM | #16 |
That whack job behind you
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I think Raphael gets his fair share in the spotlight. I just wish they'd give him a better catchphrase than "Eat it!!!" It's just another lame attempt at trying to sanitize a popular expression that's ordinarily too vulgar for young ears.
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04-19-2015, 04:34 PM | #17 |
Aussie and Proud
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I'm kind of glad Raph is not hogging the spotlight this time round. He has had enough attention over the years. if any turtle that needs focus it should be Mikey.
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04-19-2015, 04:42 PM | #18 | |||
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Last edited by Warhorse; 04-19-2015 at 04:56 PM. |
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04-19-2015, 04:48 PM | #19 |
Y'all need Jesus
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Yeah, I'm OK with him taking a backseat.
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04-28-2015, 02:34 PM | #20 | |
Control Your Narrative
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Secret of the Ooze: Even though it was Donatello getting the treatment this time, Raph had some focus with interactions with Keno. However, this is overshadowed by the mutagen storyline which puts Donnie's intelligence to use while Turtles 3: Similar to how you ignore the 2014 movie Warhorse, I do the same with this film. Mikey had the most focus and I wager Leo had a fair share of moments as well. TMNT: This is debatable because it all depends on how anyone looks at the movie with Leo going into hiding and Raph as the Nightwatcher. Essentially both get good time in the film, but the edge goes to Leo. 2014 movie: Even if the movie is discredited by many (including me), outside April stealing the spotlight, it's very clear Raph had the best chance to shine. Overall, Raph arguably had two movies where he was a central focus, though he had to share it with two other characters. (Leo and April) Each Turtle did get a chance to shine in a movie, so I won't complain too much there. 1980's cartoon: I did mention Mikey and Donnie being the focus both times in the show respectively. (Mikey for popularity while Donnie for plot) Though Raph might have been popular, it's clear he had some focus from time to time. Examples come from the Mona Lisa story as well as the episode where he believed he was going to die. (Don't remember the names of these episodes) 4Kids: I said it before and I'll say it again, Raph had very little focus and I screwed up when writing my first post on the thread. So I'll say it again: Leo is the focus of this show, whereas Michelangelo has the Battle Nexus as mentioned and Donnie has both Good Genes and Same As It Never Was. He did have meeting Casey first, but that's all I can think besides the aforementioning of the duel. At this point, debating over the history can go on forever, but there's no question that Raph can be looked at as partially focused on by some, hogging attention by some, or rarely by some. As for me, Raph is a complete mixed bag as he gotten a good chunk of attention in the movies, but suffers in the cartoons. (Again, not a comic reader right now) Although he remains a popular character overall, there are details to the character that can be used to make him better. I'm not expecting something complex, but something new to the table to make Raph unique outside his trademarks. First movie= Though Raph had some character focus, I now agree on Leo being more prominent. Secret of the Ooze: Even though it was Donatello getting the treatment this time, Raph had some focus with interactions with Keno. However, this is overshadowed by the mutagen storyline which puts Donnie's intelligence to use while Turtles 3: Similar to how you ignore the 2014 movie Warhorse, I do the same with this film. Mikey had the most focus and I wager Leo had a fair share of moments as well. TMNT: This is debatable because it all depends on how anyone looks at the movie with Leo going into hiding and Raph as the Nightwatcher. Essentially both get good time in the film, but the edge goes to Leo. 2014 movie: Even if the movie is discredited by many (including me), outside April stealing the spotlight, it's very clear Raph had the best chance to shine. Overall, Raph arguably had two movies where he was a central focus, though he had to share it with two other characters. (Leo and April) Each Turtle did get a chance to shine in a movie, so I won't complain too much there. 1980's cartoon: I did mention Mikey and Donnie being the focus both times in the show respectively. (Mikey for popularity while Donnie for plot) Though Raph might have been popular, it's clear he had some focus from time to time. Examples come from the Mona Lisa story as well as the episode where he believed he was going to die. (Don't remember the names of these episodes) 4Kids: I said it before and I'll say it again, Raph had very little focus and I screwed up when writing my first post on the thread. So I'll say it again: Leo is the focus of this show, whereas Michelangelo has the Battle Nexus as mentioned and Donnie has both Good Genes and Same As It Never Was. He did have meeting Casey first, but that's all I can think besides the aforementioning of the duel. At this point, debating over the history can go on forever, but there's no question that Raph can be looked at as partially focused on by some, hogging attention by some, or rarely by some. As for me, Raph is a complete mixed bag as he gotten a good chunk of attention in the movies, but suffers in the cartoons. (Again, not a comic reader right now) Although he remains a popular character overall, there are details to the character that can be used to make him better. I'm not expecting something complex, but something new to the table to make Raph unique outside his trademarks. Exactly, the writers can keep the core of Raphael's character with his uncontrolled emotions, but bring out more of a wit and other sides to him like you said. Anyways, for an actual post: I agree with CyberCubed with the transformation storyline, possibly making it this show's adaptation of the Good Genes arc. Or, they could always go down the route of Raph turning into the Shredder from the Image Comics. Again, so many opportunities with the characters that have potential and in this show, character development isn't fully realized. Hopefully, this mind control story can lead to SOMETHING for Raph in this show with him losing his previously potential storylines and falling into the background.
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