A "Turtles Forever"-Related Timeline Theory

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Yeah, to say it doesn't have a canon is ridiculous. It has a canon, it just isn't taken very seriously or crafted too thoughtfully.

You wouldn't say The Simpson's doesn't have a canon, even though no one has aged through 5 presidential administrations.

I wouldn't say there's no simpsons canon because it's been on the air for 30 years, I would there is no canon in the Simpsons because episodes like "The Principal and the Pauper", "That '90s Show", "On a Clear Day I Can't See My Sister" and "The Man Who Came to Be Dinner" exist and are becoming more frequent.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by neatoman

I wouldn't say there's no simpsons canon because it's been on the air for 30 years, I would there is no canon in the Simpsons because episodes like "The Principal and the Pauper", "That '90s Show", "On a Clear Day I Can't See My Sister" and "The Man Who Came to Be Dinner" exist and are becoming more frequent.

Would you say the MCU has no canon because the real world MetLife building appears in the Midtown skyline in the Netflix shows instead of Avengers Tower? Or because Civil War and Homecoming have irreconcilable dates presented?

Would you say Mirage has no canon because the turtles can't actually be 15 during the events of issue #1 (they actually have to be 13). Or that Shadow is closer to 11 years old at the start of Volume 4, instead of a teenager? Or that Leatherheads state of mind requires constant no-prizes?

Would you say that Star Wars has no canon even though... yeah, I'm not even going to begin to start with all the discrepancies created by the prequel trilogy.

Any work of fiction with multiple issues/episodes/installments has a canon. Whether it makes a lick of sense or not is up for debate. You guys are just sh*tting on the OT. Not that I care, just saying that loose continuity and a pile of errors doesn't negate the fact that a work of fiction "has canon".

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Any work of fiction with multiple issues/episodes/installments has a canon. Whether it makes a lick of sense or not is up for debate. You guys are just sh*tting on the OT. Not that I care, just saying that loose continuity and a pile of errors doesn't negate the fact that a work of fiction "has canon".

There was probably some production bible drawn up in the offices of Playmates toys that allowed for some limited form of canon, but if they didn't care if episodes were in blatant contradiction and could be watched in almost any random order, there might as well not even be a canon in the first place.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by neatoman

There was probably some production bible drawn up in the offices of Playmates toys that allowed for some limited form of canon, but if they didn't care if episodes were in blatant contradiction and could be watched in almost any random order, there might as well not even be a canon in the first place.

Again, just because it's not airtight doesn't mean there's no canon. A portion of Mirage v. 1 is out of order and has contradictions.

And just because a series has noncanon stories (one or the other Paris eps, one or the other Atlantis eps, a Baxter story or two like you said), doesn't negate the whole body of work.

What you're arguing is like saying "The Cubs don't have a pitching staff". Just because they stink and make a lot of mistakes doesn't mean they're not there. It does work as hyperbole however, and if that's what you're going for then I'm just wasting my breath.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Again, just because it's not airtight doesn't mean there's no canon. A portion of Mirage v. 1 is out of order and has contradictions.

And just because a series has noncanon stories (one or the other Paris eps, one or the other Atlantis eps, a Baxter story or two like you said), doesn't negate the whole body of work.

What you're arguing is like saying "The Cubs don't have a pitching staff". Just because they stink make a lot of mistakes doesn't mean they're not there. It does work as hyperbole however, and if that's what you're going for then I'm just wasting my breath.

Of course there's some level of canon but if it wasn't ever taken seriously by the people making the show why even bother trying to figure it out decades later?

[ToTheNines]

Because it's a fan forum, and we're nerds?

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Isn't Doctor Who's inconsistancies explained as the timeline being in constant flux? Like how Earth can be invaded by aliens all the time yet it's never documented because it's the result of time travel?

There's multiple fail-safes built in to the show to keep all that quiet. Government disavowing knowledge, Torchwood and the retcon drug, cracks in time etc

Even the trope of "unreliable narrator" is justified by the out-of-sync meetings time lords have with their own incarnations.

[CyberCubed]

I consider everything canon. The crossovers from 4kids and Nick, all the individual episodes, etc.

Hell you can even say the reason Archie took it's own direction is because Armaggon went back in time with the timeslip device right after "The Incredible Shrinking Turtles" and by pulling Shredder into the future for a while it caused a split in the timeline forming the Archie universe.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I consider everything canon. The crossovers from 4kids and Nick, all the individual episodes, etc.

Hell you can even say the reason Archie took it's own direction is because Armaggon went back in time with the timeslip device right after "The Incredible Shrinking Turtles" and by pulling Shredder into the future for a while it caused a split in the timeline forming the Archie universe.

Although I don't think Turtles Forever is canon to the original toon or Tmnt Issue 1, I certainly respect your reasoning and can totally see why people see them as canon.

Me personally, I felt that the OT turtles in TF were an interpretation of that universe by the 4Kids writers while the OT turtles from the Nick crossovers were the actual OT turtles.

Same with the Mirage turtles in Issue 1, who would've affected their own timeline if the events of TF happened in their universe, whereas in Transdimensional Turtles their inclusion felt more natural and not conflicting with their own story where they beat Shreder on the rooftop.

Despite this however, I still love TF, I just don't see it as canon, atleast not the OT and the Mirage comics. I still see it as canon to the 2k3 series.

The original voice actors, the background music, the 2D animation in the second crossover, the turtles personalities in the Nick crossovers came off as more authentic than the ones from Turtle Forever imo. Even Krang being a Nick Utrom I have no problem with.

Funny thing is however, before the Nick crossovers came, I used to think TF was canon, being the actual finale of the OT after "Shredder Triumphant", making the Red Sky never happen.

However, when I gave the Red Sky seasons a chance, I accepted them as a part of the OTs timeline and that bought TF's continuity into question. I was willing to accept it as taking place after season 10 but then came the Nick crossover, because of which I felt I had to choose which one I thought was really canon, leading me to choose Nick.

The reason why I think both crossovers dont mix together and are incompatible is:
1. The 80s turtles couldve just called the 2k3 turtles again to help alongside the 2k12 turtles in TT if they had supposedly met them before.
2. 80s Donatello acts like he has never seen the Mirage turtles before in TT despite having been there in TF and even allied with the Mirage turtles.
3. Krang is trying to destroy realities in TT, while being against that idea in Turtles Forever.
4. The 80s turtles personalities are different in both, whereas in Nick they were silly but still true to their characters in the OT, The TF versions felt flanderized and exaggerating till the point that they were a parody.

Anyways, this has been a long post but my main point is we all have our headcanons and regardless of whether you consider it canon or not, it doesn't mean you don't acknowledge it exists or you don't enjoy it. Heck, I do this with Disney films all the time, wondering whether many of the sequels are canon or not. In many cases (The Lion King and Tarzan) it could be a yes, while in many other cases (The Jungle Book and Brother Bear) its a No.

[CyberCubed]

The final seasons were always canon regardless, and crossovers don't have to happen after a show ends. When Turtles Forever first came out I never thought it had to take place after Season 10, nor do I get why anyone thought that. It was obvious to me they chose the most recognizable eras of the show, the Season 3 era to base it on.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The final seasons were always canon regardless, and crossovers don't have to happen after a show ends. When Turtles Forever first came out I never thought it had to take place after Season 10, nor do I get why anyone thought that. It was obvious to me they chose the most recognizable eras of the show, the Season 3 era to base it on.

True, you're right about that.

Regarding the Nick crossover, I saw it as happening between season 7 and 8, with Krang getting Subprime's help in re accquiring the technodrome after losing it in Dimension X. Then after the crossover, he is seperated from the technodrome again.

A last minute hope of mine, but I really hope the 2nd Nick crossover somehow connects to the OT red sky seasons somehow. Perhaps there is a huge catastrophic event by Shredder and Krang which not only causes their universe to take on a permanent red sky, but also badly damages the Nick universe, leading into the apocalyptic setting we see 50 years in the future.

[CyberCubed]

I honestly wonder if Nick's Bebop/Rocksteady will stay in the OT universe. This is their final appearance and I want to know how their characters will be wrapped up.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I doubt they will stay in that universe. My guess is the turtles will most likely have them arrested and/or de-mutated.

[ToTheNines]

OT Leo will cut their heads off.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

OT Leo will cut their heads off.

FW Leo: What have I done?

2k12 Leo: Don't worry pal, I do it all time. I mean, do you see our version of Shredder hanging about?

[ToTheNines]

good one.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

As it has already been said, the Fred Wolf turtles in Turtles Forever are a parody of the Fred Wolf turtles. They act more like the turtles from TMNT III. So it is a completely different alternate Timeline, of which there could be countless. This is why Ch'rell had to go back to Turtle Prime to destroy them all. Even within Mirage there are alternate universes and timelines. You can't force Turtles Forever into the original Fred Wolf show's timeline.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by ***First of Two Latin Kings***

As it has already been said, the Fred Wolf turtles in Turtles Forever are a parody of the Fred Wolf turtles. They act more like the turtles from TMNT III. .

No they don't. Outside of a few weird instances (the noogies), they don't act much differently nor do they act like movie Turtles.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

No they don't. Outside of a few weird instances (the noogies), they don't act much differently nor do they act like movie Turtles.

The only time they fully act in the old cartoon like how they do in Turtles Forever is Leonardo in "Leonardo Lightens Up"

Shredder, Krang, Bebop, Rocksteady, Splinter and April were done pretty well however.

I felt like the makers had good intentions, but they wanted the 80s turtles to stand apart from the 2003 turtles (because they are otherwise very similar), so they took elements from the movies (wet wilies) as well as other 90s tv shows such as Animaniacs so they could have the perfect "goofy turtles" to contrast with their own.

Unfortunately it resulted in the 80s turtles being caracitures and all having the same personality and a hive mind. They all shouted cowabunga at once in the movie multiple times and all giggled all the time at once, did noogies, cried and ran away from battle, and generally didn't focus on the task at hand until the very end when they all faced Utrom Shredder in the Mirage dimension.

[Sumac]

Personally, I don't consider Turtles Forever to be canon to the Old Cartoon. It's just a canon-less tribute, which took old turtles in their most recognizable form and ignored failed re-tool in form of Red Sky seasons.

But if I wanted to put in canon somehow, I would have chosen, that 80-s Turtles are either from alternate universe, which is almost the same as a universe of Old Cartoon, so TF would not interfere with canon of the series. Or that TF overwrites the ending of the series and Red Sky stuff never happens. Since I am not big fan of Red Sky seasons, this version would have been optimal for me.

BTW, Old Cartoon does have a canon, not really strong, but its there, no matter what salty fanboys gonna tell you. Talking about salty fanboys:

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

This is the only sound statement in this thread.

How much for that pack of salt of yours?
Do you think you can start a salt factory, because, your favorite version of Turtles was forever phased by something "less"? And people will always think about Pizza and Shredder and Krang, when they think about TMNT?