Fitting the FW crossovers onto the Original Toon's Timeline.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

I dunno.... there are separate, unconnected Usagi universes for the OT, 4kids, and Mirage/IDW universes (mirage and IDW having a joint Usagi)

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

I dunno.... there are separate, unconnected Usagi universes for the OT, 4kids, and Mirage/IDW universes (mirage and IDW having a joint Usagi)

You mean if the story is changed, or the same story again?

[sdp]

Love this thread, I'll reply to the longer posts later when I have more time but thought I'd get started on it. My favorite part of fandoms is discussing continuity and fixing continuity errors and retcons that writers didn't care for or missed. I've been discussing the turtles multiverse theory for over a decade!

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

There are some indications of Dimension X being a galaxy, just like the Milky Way Galaxy or the 2003-2009 series' Theta Galaxy, and that's definately the truth in the Archieverse.

yes, I even made a thread about it being a galaxy or a dimension over ten years ago!
In my head canon the TMNT multiverse already existed before Turtles Forever was even a thing and I wanted Dimension X to be the one constant,

My different turtle multiverses thread also pre-dates Turtles Forever, I made that Crisis on Infinite Shells threadcounting the universes the turtles had in 2006, little did I know that eventually it would be come canon

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

I personally don't believe that Turtles Forever is canon to the Original Cartoon but I do believe that the Nick crossovers are so I'll be analyzing their crossovers .

I don't know, I think it's a cheap way to ignore discussion to just say "this is a different reality". Yeah I'm not a fan of how the turtles were treated in the OT but whether they did or not give them the right personalities they were meant to be the OT turtles and not some "similar timeline but not THE timeline we know".

Sure that fixes things really easily but where's the discussion and geeking out to make it fit there? ;D

Originally Posted by neatoman

I've already touched on this before but what I think is going on with the Nick multiverse is that you're not really seeing the Mirage Turtles or the FW Turtles, just general ideas of the major TMNT incarnations.

The main clue for this is that there only 10 dimensions, they're quite explicit about that on multiple occasions. Now if we were to add up any previously explicit dimension hopping or otherwise incompatiple depictions, we'd end up with something like this:

I'm not a fan of this because it's an easy way to reconcile everything without giving much thought as I mentioned before.

Where exactly do they say that there are only 10 dimensions? In the Nick show I'm guessing? What is the exact quote? It could very well that there are only 10 dimensions that the Kraang have discovered up to that point. Clearly there are more and there's going to be more as the franchise grows so that theory will eventually not work as there will eventually be more interpretations over the years and we'll have a few dozen more unique universes.

The biggest clue for this is Turtles Forever, Ch'rell goes crazy when he see's there are an infinite number of turtles in the turtles multiverse which is why if he truly wants ot win he has to destroy the prime universe. But also in the OT there are some episodes where Dontello mentions that to find there are millions or so realities, the only ones that come to my mind is either the Usagi episode or the Hokum Hare since they mention it's going to be almsot impossible to find the right dimension. Another episode that may say something similar is the one about Dimension Z that has the pee-wee inspired Mr.Mxy of the TMNT universe.

Incomplete but you get the idea, no way in hell only 10 realities can exist if we are to assume we're really seeing the original versions of the characters. Also, if the FW Turtles in the Nick show really are the FW Turtles, then you'd have to pretend none of these are canon:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20130709010145https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20081122220854

The Krangazoids episode I've explained many times before in this forum.

In his first appearance we see Krang asking for his body back implying that his body was taken away, and he eventually gets it, what was his body? The Android body and never asks for his body again. We also have a flashback in the second season of Krang with others of his species that look just like him, no "real" bodies.

The Krangazoids episode implies that its his real body but it's never explicitly said, re-watch the episode, it can also be interpreted from it that he got "a" body not "his" real body as he doesn't really have one. So while the lizard looking body might've been what they wanted at the time it has since been retconned into it not being and it works fine since it's never explictly said that he had a real body and all "body" references work just fine when referring to his android mech.

As far as Granitor/Traag, that does create a problem but that'll be another post since it's quite complicated, theories can go from different Granitor/Traag or they were eventually mutated but yeah that deals more with Dimension X and worthy of its own single huge post after I read some more theories.

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

You mean if the story is changed, or the same story again?

I think he means that the Miyamoto we meet in 2k3 is not the same one as the one they meet in Nick and is different from the one the OT turtles meet so there can't be "one" Usagi Yojimbo universe, since we know there are at least 4 different ones (the comic, OT, 2k3, Nick) and there's more since I remember reading that some of the crossovers are not canon in the comic so clearly a different universe.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I just say:

Next time: Reboot the franchise and ignore all earlier versions. Don't crossover, and let earlier series rest in peace.

[ProphetofGanja]

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

I just say:

Next time: Reboot the franchise and ignore all earlier versions. Don't crossover, and let earlier series rest in peace.

I think that's a good practice, and besides, it gives them a much more interesting option: show us never-before-seen versions of the TMNT!

The main Turtles of the new series could go on a multiverse-spanning adventure like most TMNT cartoons eventually do, but instead of crossing over with previously seen versions of the TMNT from the old cartoons, just create some new ones—pirates, film noir, steampunk, cyberpunk, genderbent, whatever.

The possibilities are endless and much more interesting than just "HEY WHAT IF WE BRING BACK THE FRED WOLF TURTLES LOL!"

[sdp]

These crossovers are done for one and one reason only, fanservice but that's not a bad thing. If you don't like it you can just ignore those episodes as they usually have little bearing to the plot.

If you're a casual fan then you don't think twice about the crossover and enjoy it for what it is. If you're a continuity nerd like me and many others then we like to fix things to make it fit. It's obvious the writers don't go to the lengths of discussion the average fandom does, they just take the essence and do the crossover.

If there's no crossover it's fine, even if I do prefer them. But it's already set up that the turtles live in a multiverse so even without a crossover it exists in it but you as a fan of only that show you don't care and that's cool too.

This thread is more for people who do care, for example Prophet I think you feel that way about the MCU while a more casual fan will just watch whatever movie was released without thinking what went on in the previous films.



As far as "show us different versions of the TMNT", that's a cheap argument that arose in the new show thread and it's condescending. We've gotten many different takes of the franchise, no one wants the same thing done again. when The Batman came out and did things differently people complained but I loved it, when it became BTAS-lite I hated it but people loved it since it was "more of what they wanted.

The OT, 2k3, TNM, PD are all different takes. If you think they're the same then I don't know what to tell you. Change for changes sake is not good though, steampunk TMNT would be cool for a crossover episode but not for the actual show to all be like that. All TMNT shows have given us alternate takes in their "future" episodes where they meet a very different world, so in a way it's already being done.

For other very different takes take a look at the Summer shorts from last year and this year. They were all very different takes, and I think I'm the only one left who wants to see the missing ones, I enjoyed them all, no matter how weird they were.

[ProphetofGanja]

Originally Posted by sdp

These crossovers are done for one and one reason only, fanservice but that's not a bad thing. If you don't like it you can just ignore those episodes as they usually have little bearing to the plot.

If you're a casual fan then you don't think twice about the crossover and enjoy it for what it is. If you're a continuity nerd like me and many others then we like to fix things to make it fit. It's obvious the writers don't go to the lengths of discussion the average fandom does, they just take the essence and do the crossover.

If there's no crossover it's fine, even if I do prefer them. But it's already set up that the turtles live in a multiverse so even without a crossover it exists in it but you as a fan of only that show you don't care and that's cool too.

Fan service is a tricky thing, because show runners do want to please the fans but going overboard with fan service is usually bad as it can compromise the show runners original vision.

Originally Posted by sdp

This thread is more for people who do care, for example Prophet I think you feel that way about the MCU while a more casual fan will just watch whatever movie was released without thinking what went on in the previous films.

You know me so well!

Originally Posted by sdp

As far as "show us different versions of the TMNT", that's a cheap argument that arose in the new show thread and it's condescending. We've gotten many different takes of the franchise, no one wants the same thing done again. when The Batman came out and did things differently people complained but I loved it, when it became BTAS-lite I hated it but people loved it since it was "more of what they wanted.

The OT, 2k3, TNM, PD are all different takes. If you think they're the same then I don't know what to tell you. Change for changes sake is not good though, steampunk TMNT would be cool for a crossover episode but not for the actual show to all be like that. All TMNT shows have given us alternate takes in their "future" episodes where they meet a very different world, so in a way it's already being done.

For other very different takes take a look at the Summer shorts from last year and this year. They were all very different takes, and I think I'm the only one left who wants to see the missing ones, I enjoyed them all, no matter how weird they were.

I didn't meant to say that a whole show should be done with a vastly different take on the Turtles, like making them pirates or have steampunk technology or anything like that, just an episode or multi-episode arc. I think it would be easier to pull off elseworld-style takes on the Turtles for just a few episodes rather than making a whole series about them, which would undoubtedly rub some fans the wrong way.

I do think that every iteration of the TMNT needs to do something differently, but there are also undeniably some things that should probably not change (for example... changing the Turtles to aliens will probably never be accepted as a viable premise).

All the versions of the TMNT we've had so far have been totally different (OC, OT, OM, and all the subsequent versions) while still staying relatively true to the core essence of the TMNT.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by sdp

If you don't like it you can just ignore those episodes as they usually have little bearing to the plot.

Just Hun going from human into becoming a mutant turtle and not cured when it's over, Chrell upgrading the Technodrome, making Krang a Kraang, and having Krang suddenly borrowing rock soldiers from the Kraang, when he had his own.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

You mean if the story is changed, or the same story again?

I mean the usagi in Fred Wolf doesn't know the turtles when he meets them, 4kids usagi acts like he's meeting leo for the first time, and Nick 2012 usagi meets those turtles for the first time in that show. Each version of TMNT has met a different Usagi from a different part of the multiverse, except IDW meeting the mirage one.

[CyberCubed]

Which makes sense. Stan Sakai's Usagi is the one he writes and that is the one who met the Mirage and IDW Turtles.

The 3 Usagi's from the cartoons are essentially spinoffs of Stan Sakai's Usgai, from different universes. Like how the Mirage Turtles are considered the "Prime Turtles" and everything splits off from that.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by ProphetofGanja

Fan service is a tricky thing, because show runners do want to please the fans but going overboard with fan service is usually bad as it can compromise the show runners original vision.

I think in the case of the FW crossovers you kind of expect the writers to at least have knowledge of the entire series they're pulling from. Otherwise we wouldn't have to have these debates about dimensions and continuity issues.

[sdp]

Originally Posted by ProphetofGanja

Fan service is a tricky thing, because show runners do want to please the fans but going overboard with fan service is usually bad as it can compromise the show runners original vision.

Indeed, too much fan service can affect a product but one crossover in an entire run of the series isn't overdoing it, Nick would've done just fine with only having one crossover.

I didn't meant to say that a whole show should be done with a vastly different take on the Turtles, like making them pirates or have steampunk technology or anything like that, just an episode or multi-episode arc. I think it would be easier to pull off elseworld-style takes on the Turtles for just a few episodes rather than making a whole series about them, which would undoubtedly rub some fans the wrong way.

I'd love a show of the future mech turtles we saw in the summer shorts, we'll never get it but that would be exciting.

I didn't like your idea of elseworld stories until commenting on the Apocalypse thread of the Nick show. Now I think it would be awesome to have an elseworld story in every episode and see all these interpretations, or maybe even something like all the non-canon stories of Mirage vol.1 or what they tried to do with the summer shorts.

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

Just Hun going from human into becoming a mutant turtle and not cured when it's over, Chrell upgrading the Technodrome, making Krang a Kraang, and having Krang suddenly borrowing rock soldiers from the Kraang, when he had his own.

That's irrelevant, we didn't have another season where Hun was still mutated, nor did we see the upgraded technodrome in the OT.

But that's beside the point, what I meant is if you like 2k3 and not the OT or viceversa you can enjoy the crossover as your characters meeting these other turtles, if you don't care about the other turtles this doesn't force you to watch every episode of the other version, just see it as characters of the day.

[CyberCubed]

Also in the Fred Wolf universe itself the Technodrome was "destroyed" in a few eps as a joke and then "magically" back to normal in the next episode. I think there was an episode in Season 4 where the Turtles use a giant magnet to bring a whole bunch of ships from the ocean to crash into the Technodrome...and the Technodrome is then sitting there with like 5 boats lodged into it.

Then in the next episode the Technodrome is magically back to normal again. Or remember the ep the Technodrome was brought back to Dimension X but upside down? Or when it was sinking underneath the lava in one episode with Shredder/Krang still inside and then the next episode it was back on the ground?

The show itself was inconsistent, so of course if the Technodrome is used in Turtles Forever or the Nick show and changed...it would be brought back to normal next time in the original toon universe.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I think there was an episode in Season 4 where the Turtles use a giant magnet to bring a whole bunch of ships from the ocean to crash into the Technodrome.

"Super Irma" (season 6)

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Considering the more comedic nature of the Fred Wolf universe, I think Krang and Shredder could have recovered the technodrome, got it working again, recovered bebop and rocksteady from wherever they were from Dimension X, Channel six was rebuilt and april got her job back, and all the crossovers take place after the red sky seasons.

[cammy85]

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

Considering the more comedic nature of the Fred Wolf universe, I think Krang and Shredder could have recovered the technodrome, got it working again, recovered bebop and rocksteady from wherever they were from Dimension X, Channel six was rebuilt and april got her job back, and all the crossovers take place after the red sky seasons.

This would explain everyones' behavior in Turtles Forever then. Shredder and Krang were driven insane because their many attempts to conquer the Turtles and Earth have failed. Not even blowing up Channel Six could stop them!! Shredder and Krang gave it their best shot and blew it so they figured let's just do whatever. One giggle ray later and here we are.

The Nick crossovers were better at least and Krang was more of a threat here so I'm not sure if those fit in together, but the insane theory makes sense.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The show itself was inconsistent, so of course if the Technodrome is used in Turtles Forever or the Nick show and changed...it would be brought back to normal next time in the original toon universe.

I never felt that stuff was inconsistent. The technodrome was a tank and impervious to Earth weaponry. I just assume with all those examples Krang and Shredder got the thing working again. With all those foot soldiers at their disposable repairing their home base wouldn't have taken much time.