Fred Wolf crossovers and continuity thread

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Since this has been discussed in multiple threads for years, I instead think it's time to start an official thread.

Here, we can discuss the Fred Wolf crossovers (Turtles Forever, Wormquake, Transdimensional Turtles and Wanted Bebop and Rocksteady) and continuity (since it didn't affect the 4 Kids or Nickelodeon series that much).

When do they take place?

How to explain what happens to the Technodrome?

How do they fit into the seasons?

How does Krang's origin as a Kraang affect the continuity?

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

How does Krang's origin as a Kraang affect the continuity?

You want a simple apologist answer or the real answer?

First the apologist answer.
Officially only 10 dimensions exist in the Nickelodeon cartoon, period. Since two spots are taken up by hell and a version of Dimension X, it's safe to assume not every single individual continuity is represented as a dimension. Between that and the blatant contradictions, the best possible answer is that it's simply not in continuity with the FW cartoon, at all. Instead the "FW" turtles you see in the Nick cartoon aren't actually the FW turtles, rather a general meshed reflection of the FW era with the similar versions (Archie and the video games) blended in. So for example, if the "4Kids" turtles had appeared, there wouldn't have been any mention of how the Utrom homeworld is distinct from Dimension X and not taken over by the Kraang, because it wouldn't really be the 4Kids Turtles but rather near duplicates with a slightly different history.

But the real answer is far less fun.
The writers of the Nick show didn't care. They either didn't know, remember or care that Krang used to look like a lizard or that he stole the Technodrome from the Predator's botched clone. And since the target audience were little kids who probably never watched the FW show and likely won't care enough to seek it out, why even bother with such details? It's not like the FW writers cared either, there episodes of that show with internal continuity errors.

Anyway, I seriously hope we've seen the last of these things. All they do is try to pander to an ever shrinking segment of fanbase but end up pissing it off instead. All because the Super Friends-like trash relic isn't "being treated with the dignity it deserves".

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Although I don't believe that the 1987 turtles seen in Turtles Forever are the real turtles, just as the Mirage turtles in that movie aren't the real ones, I do think that if Turtles Forever were to be placed somewhere in the Original Cartoon timeline, it would be after season 10.

This is for a number of reasons: (currently just stating one, might add more later)

1. The technodrome gets upgraded at the end of the movie and goes back to the 80s universe.

Unless Shredder and Krang deliberately changed it back, which they probably wouldn't due to how powerful Ch'rell's model was, there would logically be an upgraded technodrome throughout the show's run, which there wasn't.

I think the most feasible scenario is that Shredder and Krang managed to finally repair the technodrome (after season 10) and brought it back to earth, where it once again began causing havoc and triggered the events of Turtles Forever to take place.

[CyberCubed]

Everything is in continuity. Ninja Turtles probably has the greatest mythos and multiverse of nearly all of fiction.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Everything is in continuity. Ninja Turtles probably has the greatest mythos and multiverse of nearly all of fiction.

You're lucky this is the internet and nobody can physically give you the flaming wedgie you so richly deserve.

[Kenwatanabesclone]

I just think it’s stupid that they even wrote the ten dimensions thing. Ugh. Why would you put yourself in a corner like that. There is obviously far more than ten. My head canon in that “dimensions” in nick are different from alternate realities.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by neatoman

You want a simple apologist answer or the real answer?
But the real answer is far less fun.
The writers of the Nick show didn't care. They either didn't know, remember or care that Krang used to look like a lizard or that he stole the Technodrome from the Predator's botched clone. And since the target audience were little kids who probably never watched the FW show and likely won't care enough to seek it out, why even bother with such details? It's not like the FW writers cared either, there episodes of that show with internal continuity errors.

I think the writers of the Nickelodeon cartoon did care, and didn't outright contract contradict the 1987 cartoon in their portrayal of it.

Throughout both of their crossovers, there are many references scattered throughout which the writers would've only known about had they done some research in the cartoon.

For example:

1. Shredder uses Chrome Dome Shampoo in the Big Blow Out.

2. 80's Leonardo alludes to the events of "Michelangelo's Birthday" when he refers to Shredder having turned them into balloons.

3. 80's Bebop refers to the turtles as having seen through their disguises of "old ladies". A clear jab at the old lady disguises that the duo occasionally used in the cartoon. (The Gang's All Here, Four Turtles and a Baby).

And by the way, How does Krang having a lizard form at one point in time, or having stolen his technodrome from Bezerkro in one point of time, contradict him being a cousin of Kraang-Subprime and being related to the Kraang?

Originally Posted by neatoman

Anyway, I seriously hope we've seen the last of these things. All they do is try to pander to an ever shrinking segment of fanbase but end up pissing it off instead. All because the Super Friends-like trash relic isn't "being treated with the dignity it deserves".

While I highly doubt we are going to get another proper crossover with the 1987 turtles and Rise, your reaction would be the first that I'd want to see if we did

[Icebot]

Here’s what I believe:

Transdimensional Turtles takes place some time in season 2.

The Wanted B& R 3 parter has to be from season 3 since the technodrome was in the earths core at the exact same place (and it was in dimension X in transdimensional, I guess that season 2 place looks like the place it was at). Since bebop and rocksteady mentioned the old lady disguises, I figure it’s after The Gangs All Here as there was an old lady disguise in that episode.

Turtles Forever happens after Divide and Conquer. When lord dregg was defeated, he was pushed into the portal that led to the technodrome. I believe he survived that and summoned his microbots to rebuild the technodrome and make it work again. Shredder and Krang eventually take over the technodrome again and the turtles forever events happen later.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Icebot

Here’s what I believe:

Transdimensional Turtles takes place some time in season 2.

(and it was in dimension X in transdimensional, I guess that season 2 place looks like the place it was at).

I find your theory about Trans-Dimensional Turtles quite interesting for one reason, there was no Shredder.

1987 Shredder and Krang worked together almost all the time, except for in season 2 where Shredder was more of a pest to Krang and his plans, than anything else.

If there was one time where a story with only Krang as the villain would be appropriate, season 2 would be it.

[sdp]

Yes, there's inconsistencies because they didn't care enough about continuity and didn't think anyone besides the hardcore fandom would care about those small details but it's all canon, the OT already has enough inconsistencies with stuff like two Atlantis so it's something that comes along with the territory of long running animated shows and it's up to the fandom to fix it through fanon retcons and headcanons. The "not canon", "it's a cartoon" or "the writers didn't intend that/messed up" are lazy answers and aren't allowed here.

First we need to make note of the inconsistencies because frankly I don't remember all of them:
Krang being a lizard? We've debated this tons of times, it's never stated it's his actual body, just a body.
10 dimensions? how is that mentioned in 2012? Maybe the kraang only know of 10 dimensions but there are more they haven't discovered yet.
How they get the technodrome? Did they make it in 2012 for the first time and it has an origin in the OT? I don't remember but I'm sure someone can think of an explanation.

After Turtles Forever we all worked out on where to put it and the general consensus here is that it takes place somewhere around Season 4 as it's the best fit. Why don't the turtles mention 2k3? Well they rarely mentioned other events. Why isn't the technodrome all upgraded? It's the OT, it makes perfect sense for Shredder/Krang to have re-downgraded the Technodrome to the beast that they loved and didn't like the fancy upgrades or the fact that Ch'rell messed it up. Why were the FW turtles silly? Krang's giggle ray. etc

Turtles Forever and even the 2012 crossover don't make much sense post-Red Sky episodes. What we did see in 2012 is that the timelines are not linear and space-time is a tricky thing even in the turtleverse as we saw how the ending of Wormquake relates to Transdimensional Turtles which actually helps to patch away any inconsistencies.

Yes, this also means that technically these two events also happened in Mirage during issue 1, we just didn't see it back then. I'd guess transdimensional turtles happens first hence they're even grouchier when Turtles Forever happens since they have no idea what's going on with this. We just never see it in the actual comic pages but technically they happened off panel. Sure that kind of ruins TMNT #1 and the pacing of that adventure since what is a puny human Shredder after saving the multiverse but it's best not to think about it together, it's more of a timeline aspect.

I do think bigger problems are the utrom world, krang being related to krang prime, etc since now they all need to fit together. At one point in the fandom it was also a popular theory that there was only one Renet in the multiverse but that actually causes more problems so let's not get into that in this thread.

[CyberCubed]

As I said above, I think the TMNT franchise may very well have the deepest lore and greatest mythos in any body of fiction. On the surface it's a very simple franchise, but if you dig deep enough all the different fabrics of each universe can tie into each other seamlessly and the intricate plotlines and characterisation of every series melds together.

TMNT might very well be deeper than Star Trek, Star Wars and DC and Marvel combined. It's probably the greatest fictional body of work ever written and conceived by mankind.

[Leo656]

Laughable. Lie down before you hurt yourself.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

He's trolling, Leo. Or his version of it, anyway. This is Cubed, after all...

[Leo656]

Clearly, but the quality has severely dipped in recent months.

Either he got a promotion at work or found himself some snooch. I'm glad for him either way, but I'd like to see more of the OG Cubed. Recent efforts have been lacking.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by sdp

Krang being a lizard? We've debated this tons of times, it's never stated it's his actual body, just a body.

The clones developed lizardoid-like boides but at that time, but that doesn't mean Krang had such a body.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by neatoman

The writers of the Nick show didn't care. They either didn't know, remember or care that Krang used to look like a lizard or that he stole the Technodrome from the Predator's botched clone. And since the target audience were little kids who probably never watched the FW show and likely won't care enough to seek it out, why even bother with such details? It's not like the FW writers cared either, there episodes of that show with internal continuity errors.

Anyway, I seriously hope we've seen the last of these things. All they do is try to pander to an ever shrinking segment of fanbase but end up pissing it off instead. All because the Super Friends-like trash relic isn't "being treated with the dignity it deserves".

And this is why you're not fun at parties...

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

While I highly doubt we are going to get another proper crossover with the 1987 turtles and Rise, your reaction would be the first that I'd want to see if we did

When he gets like that don't go near him, just don't even look in his direction.

Originally Posted by sdp

Yes, there's inconsistencies because they didn't care enough about continuity and didn't think anyone besides the hardcore fandom would care about those small details but it's all canon, the OT already has enough inconsistencies with stuff like two Atlantis so it's something that comes along with the territory of long running animated shows and it's up to the fandom to fix it through fanon retcons and headcanons. The "not canon", "it's a cartoon" or "the writers didn't intend that/messed up" are lazy answers and aren't allowed here.

While I agree that neatoman is lazy when it comes to the FW series it's interesting you mention the Atlantis episodes. I kind of feel based on how they're presented that the Euro Atlantis episode was a fake and the real one was in Season 7. Am I wrong to believe that? Is one Atlantis felt more the real one than the other?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by pferreira

While I agree that neatoman is lazy when it comes to the FW series it's interesting you mention the Atlantis episodes. I kind of feel based on how they're presented that the Euro Atlantis episode was a fake and the real one was in Season 7. Am I wrong to believe that? Is one Atlantis felt more the real one than the other?

I watched both Atlantis episodes a long time ago, I thought they could possibly be the same one?

We never got to the see the inside of Atlantis in the European Vacation episodes. It could've still been the same one from season 7, with all the Atlantians just staying inside while it emerged to the surface for a short while.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by sdp

It's up to the fandom to fix it through fanon retcons and headcanons. The "not canon", "it's a cartoon" or "the writers didn't intend that/messed up" are lazy answers and aren't allowed here.

First off, **** the notion that pointing out flawed writing is lazy, it's not lazy when it's true. Secondly, I did come up with an excuse even if I don't actually agree it's a good thing. Bad writing is bad writing, period. If you observe a clear major contradiction, a massive hole in the structure, then the narrative is broken nonsense.

If you need to put the movie or show on pause, go and think about it, come up with plausibilities, bend the defination of what has been established, add information that was never even presented and effectively rewrite the narrative yourself so that it makes any sense, guess what? The thing was almost certainly either a **** up or not meant to be taken seriously. Trust on this, it's far better to accept these possibilities than try doing the writer's job for them.

And if you did bother jump through those hoops and ended up coming up with something that isn't overthought nonsense that makes even less sense than what you tried to fix, congrats. You are officially a better/more caring writer than the person paid to write the thing in the first place. Then again, your skills would be of better use making something new rather than plug holes in a piece of entertainment structured like swiss cheese.

[sdp]

I'm not saying it isn't lazy writing, I said it's lazy answers for the fandom to do. Yeah, we have to fix plotholes with overthought nonsense but that's what fandoms are for, try to find make the stories that we love work instead of just saying it's "not canon".

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by neatoman

First off, **** the notion that pointing out flawed writing is lazy, it's not lazy when it's true. Secondly, I did come up with an excuse even if I don't actually agree it's a good thing. Bad writing is bad writing, period. If you observe a clear major contradiction, a massive hole in the structure, then the narrative is broken nonsense.

The writing wasn't lazy and I have pointed to a couple of writers who have disagreed with you about that. It wasn't the show YOU wanted it to be, that doesn't make it lazy. Every TV show has its own nonsense storytelling depending on whether you like it. I think the IDW idea of the TMNT being reincarnated is more ridiculous than anything the Fred Wolf series did but I don't respond to every Fred Wolf related post slagging off the show. The simple fact is you can't identify with the show the same way I'm not rushing to defend the IDW comic and that's okay but to slag off the show's writing as rubbish when it has shown many times it isn't isn't just an insult to fans like me but the writers as well. I would think before saying stuff like that in the future. I wish I could get away with slagging off other iterations of TMNT without the mods intervening.