Star Wars Episode 8

[Vegita-San]

I found the clone wars animated series much more involving than rebels.

As you said, rebels isn't bad, but take away the OT elements, and you'll find there isn't all that much new there. or interesting. only a few episodes I've felt where rewatchable worthy. and some of those had vader in it.

[newfan]

I liked the trailer more than I thought I would, who do you think Luke was referring too when he said (spoiler as some don't want to watch the trailer)

Spoiler:

Last time I saw a power of this magnitude was....(or something like that)
I hope he didn't mean Ren..... I wondered if he meant Palpatine... even though he's not in the movie.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

He's almost certainly talking about Kylo Ren's power with the Force.

[CyberCubed]

Given how Rey is seen as a feminist icon, it's probably too much to hope she isn't the pure hero she was portrayed in Episode 7.

It's looking more and more like Finn might be the true hero of this new trilogy. It'd be quite a shock if it happens.

[newfan]

Maybe she goes dark and comes back.

[Spike Spiegel]

Do hardcore people who know a lot about Star Wars lore, or just the tropes of sci fi/fantasy in general, really see Rey as a feminist character? I ask this as a serious question, not as a neckbeard.

I honestly think we've had more interesting female characters in SW like Ahsoka Tano, Bastila in KOTOR, Leia, or even Padme--there was a deleted sequence at the end of ROTS where she hides a knife in her cloak and means to kill Anakin on Mustafar to try and save the Republic.

Compared to them, Rey seems about as bland as pre-ROTJ Luke. She's there in VII to go through the motions of the hero's journey archetype, but that's it. IMO there's nothing all that subversive or dynamic about her as revealed so far. Granted, I have not read any tie in stories where Rey may have been featured.

[Vegita-San]

yep.

Ezra had trouble learning the basics. and so did Sabine when she had to use a lightsaber for her time on mandalore. and Luke was just plain likeable and relatable.

Rey....she can be likeable. but something about how they write her, or how they handle her powers, it's off compared to the other male and female characters we've seen so far. I'm willing to bet this 'awakening' isn't addressed as much as people think it might be so as to make rey seem more awesome at suddenly knowing everything about the force, with only having heard about it a few hours into the movie.

either that, or we are all just so jaded at how hollywood does things these days, we are looking for things that arn't there.. but i don't think so.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Spike Spiegel

Do hardcore people who know a lot about Star Wars lore, or just the tropes of sci fi/fantasy in general, really see Rey as a feminist character?

Yes.

Why do you think she wouldn't be?

[Spike Spiegel]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Yes.

Why do you think she wouldn't be?

Something about her characterization felt incomplete in VII, especially after Han and Chewie entered the narrative.

On a superficial level, I can see the "feminist" aspects--she lives alone, fights any number of dangerous creatures on Jakku, scavenging for her keep, and is a good pilot and mechanic--but it seems like they picked a bunch of "fish on a bicycle/don't need no man" tropes to project onto a flat character.

I know what she can do, but I feel that I don't know her as a person. You could also argue that both Finn and Kylo objectify her in the same way. Kylo wants to harness her power, and I guess Finn is just lovestruck at first and enamored with her abilities.

[plastroncafe]

I don't agree with those assessments of Rey's character, but I can see where you're coming from.

However, I'm not seeing how these named deficits makes her not feminist.
What do you think a feminist character looks like?

[Sumac]

I really liked Finn in TFA, though, I expected that I will dislike him.
And kind of disliked Rey, though I expected to like her. She doesn't feel like an interesting or charismatic character.

Kylo Ren was hilarious - if creators wanted to make him psychotic teenager, then they have succeeded. If they wanted to present him as a competent and charismatic villain - then they have completely failed.

[CyberCubed]

Luke was pretty bland too in his first movie. It's pretty obvious these characters need more than one film to develop. I think Rey, Finn and Kylo Ren will all be much better characters this time around. The first movie was just our intro to them.

[snake]

The fact that Kylo's characterization completely went over your heads says more about the intelligence of the average Star Wars fan than anything.

[Spike Spiegel]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

What do you think a feminist character looks like?

I never really considered this before, but down the rabbit hole I go...

More or less, a female character whose humanity is fully realized, outside of the context of being an object of desire, a plot device, or a diversity token. You understand them internally and externally. They don't always have to be heroes, and they can have flaws or be forced to make tough choices.

Rey seems more like a sketch or a concept of a character than a fully fleshed out protagonist from what I have seen so far. I connected with aspects of what I saw in the first film, but I don't think the script went far enough.

Also, I don't think acting in ways that are typically codified as masculine wins any brownie points, either--though I am not automatically opposed to it (remember Vasquez from Aliens?). It just caters to some abstract idea of what the culture views as strong or desirable, which could be viewed as promoting a hegemonic view where only that kind of behavior can be seen as valuable. It's like saying, "what makes this chick cool is how much she acts like a dude."

In a more general sense, I think the inner life of a character is what connects them to the audience moreso than whatever feats they can accomplish in the context of their story. Look at a character like Superman, for instance. If you don't see the lovable Kansas farmboy beneath the costume, he's tremendously flat and boring as a hero.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Originally Posted by Sumac

Kylo Ren was hilarious - if creators wanted to make him psychotic teenager, then they have succeeded. If they wanted to present him as a competent and charismatic villain - then they have completely failed.

He's not supposed to be charismatic or necessarily psychotic, as far as I can tell he's supposed to be almost sympathetic. Just like Anakin, he grew up as a powerful Force wielder and started training, but he felt his true value was consistently ignored by his mentors. So he's turned to someone who he honestly thinks can help him reach his ultimate potential. They hit you over the head with it, he even wears a Vader-esque mask for no reason other than to look like Vader, because his story is just like Vader's (and it probably sells more toys if he has a cool helmet). Kylo Ren felt like an actual character, with personality, 10 times more than Rey or Finn.

[plastroncafe]

You might have just hit the nail on the head as to why I'm seldom impressed with Superman stories.

I'd counter this with the fact that there's nothing inherently wrong with the character of Vasquez from Aliens. She's a great character, and she's representative of a certain type of woman. The problem isn't her, it's when there's only her. When all we see in a movie is one kind of woman, because then she's not just A woman she's THE woman and it's really easy to make her a stand in for ALL women.

This is one of the reasons that Fury Road is as awesome as it is.
There are lots of kinds of women in that movie, and they're all strong characters, and they're not all like Furiosa. They shouldn't have to be.

Rey gets flack because she's the lead protagonist.
She's either too strong/skilled or not strong/not skilled enough.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Luke was pretty bland too in his first movie. It's pretty obvious these characters need more than one film to develop. I think Rey, Finn and Kylo Ren will all be much better characters this time around. The first movie was just our intro to them.

Never change 'cubed, never change.

Originally Posted by snake

The fact that Kylo's characterization completely went over your heads says more about the intelligence of the average Star Wars fan than anything.

Is it aimed at me? Because, it sounds quite rude and tells me more about low n level of discourse and low level of intelligence and upbringing of some people here, as well.

BTW, I am not much of Star Wars fan. I don't read promo materials, interviews, comic books and the like, and have only movies as a reference.

Originally Posted by Spike Spiegel

Rey seems more like a sketch or a concept of a character than a fully fleshed out protagonist from what I have seen so far. I connected with aspects of what I saw in the first film, but I don't think the script went far enough.

Precisely how i felt about her while watching TFA.
She can be an interesting character, but there was not enough charisma.

Originally Posted by TheSkeletonMan939

He's not supposed to be charismatic or necessarily psychotic, as far as I can tell he's supposed to be almost sympathetic. Just like Anakin, he grew up as a powerful Force wielder and started training, but he felt his true value was consistently ignored by his mentors. So he's turned to someone who he honestly thinks can help him reach his ultimate potential. They hit you over the head with it, he even wears a Vader-esque mask for no reason other than to look like Vader, because his story is just like Vader's (and it probably sells more toys if he has a cool helmet). Kylo Ren felt like an actual character, with personality, 10 times more than Rey or Finn.

I've got that he was supposed to be Vader 2.0 (like many other characters in TFA are 2.0 versions of old heroes).
The problem is his characterization in the movie was rather strange - one moment he is presented as competent and scary warlord, in other - like child throwing a temper tantrum. He is not coherent in what he is.

That's why I am saying - if creators wanted to make a (meta-)commentary about him being a fan of Vader, who goes out of his way to be like his idol and at the same time being nothing like him in some aspects and very much like young Anakin in others - than they have succeeded.

If they wanted to present him as some kind of serious threat, a villain who can be taken seriously, like Vader, than they have utterly failed.

Part of my problems with him, is that I never was fan of Anakin portrayal in the Prequel movies. He was whiny kid, who had no charisma, no competence, no any abilities of a strong leader. Easily swayed and manipulated, with no spine. He was nothing like Vader in OT and that was the major problem for me. Not because, I am big fan of OT, but because it felt rather inconsistent. And his sudden transformation into competent commander after lava bath does not look exactly convincing.

Once again, I go only by movies.

[plastroncafe]

There's good Anakin character developments to be had, but they never seemed to make it to the big screen.

It's my understanding you have to go to the cartoons for that sort of thing.

[snake]

Not really directed at you, but more to the r/starwars audience of redditors.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Sumac

Part of my problems with him, is that I never was fan of Anakin portrayal in the Prequel movies. He was whiny kid, who had no charisma, no competence, no any abilities of a strong leader. Easily swayed and manipulated, with no spine. He was nothing like Vader in OT and that was the major problem for me. Not because, I am big fan of OT, but because it felt rather inconsistent. And his sudden transformation into competent commander after lava bath does not look exactly convincing..

The Vader in the original movies is a nearly 18 year timeskip from where we left him off at the end of Episode 3. Of course Darth Vader would become a more competent leader in 18 years of serving the Empire and working for the Dark Side.

I mean think about it in real life terms. A person in their 30's is obviously a lot different than someone when they're only 18. People mature, grow up, or in this case...become evil and competent. Remember Anakin in the prequels was basically an older teen.