Tales of the TMNT 56

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by Neutrino

I really liked this version of Hun. Not quite sure why he is important to TMNT quite yet but hopefully we will find out in 59. Mirage Hun (that is fun to say) seems a bit more real now that they dropped his stupid long hair. Much better design IMO.

I was a bit confused by the tattoo on his right arm. Initially, I thought it was Harmon's misguided attempt at arm hair. Then I realized Harmon wouldn't be that lazy and noticed the dragon head design on Hun's hand and realized the markings along his arm were supposed to be scales.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

This is one of the worst issues of Tales of the TMNT I've read in some time. The plot was lackluster, the narration... even the art was subpar and seemed very rushed. And the inclusion of Hun seemed forced and unneeded.

Originally Posted by oldmanwinters

Ah, I see... Did you just now get around to reading Tales #41?

I'm just kidding, by the way.

I haven't even read the issue yet and won't be able to until this coming Wednesday. Hopefully.

[TristanHuwJones]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I'm just kidding, by the way.

I haven't even read the issue yet and won't be able to until this coming Wednesday. Hopefully.

You ****! I had a feeling you'd pull some shenanigans like that. Keen to hear your thoughts, even if you're not a fan of it.

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

You ****!

By the way, very interesting use of profanity in this issue. I think excessive profanity waters down dialogue in general, but this style reminds me of old-school comic dialogue where angry people spoke in symbols.

Also, I really like how all Hun's dialogue was in black word bubbles with white text. That alone made me think this guy was bad news. Well, that and the fact that he can get a knife stabbed into vital regions and pull it out like it was a magic trick.

[DK2]

Tristan, I liked this issue. I didn't know about the characters non Mirage canon or existance from the 2K3 toon til reading Dan Berger's opening editorial. Its nice to see more from Caseys past, that he could've died when he was younger. It let all the others learn about Caseys rough life. I really liked Paul Harmon's artwork. Its not often you see an artist interpret the TMNT to be more realistic looking among the setting of the comics and the real world. I think no artist since AC Farley's style IMO. But was this all worth it for the Hun character? Will we see him again? To me he didn't make an impact as a new major villain. He was a big gang leader, thug guy. He ain't no Shredder impact in just one issue. To me he was also a Casey foe moreso than a TMNT foe. I'm only stating this based on the premise of Dans editorial about the inception of using Hun was to make more major TMNT villains. Which I didn't see Hun as having that long term villainy. But a nice read overall. I'm now thinking of reading back your guys' past 2 Tales issues. I look forward to your TOTMNT #59.

[Dragon Turtle]

Originally Posted by The Big Bad

First of all, let me say I'm really glad Hun made the jump to the comic books. He deserves it. Even so, while this issue is a good introduction for the character, and one that presents a lot of dramatic potential, I don't feel there's much to the character than “scary thug gang boss” yet, nor is there much potential for anything else so far—I don't see him becoming a criminal mastermind like the original, given the more mundane underworld of the Mirage comics, and the nature of “flashback” comics. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing—this version would not have fit that universe and vice-versa—I do feel that an important part of the original's appeal was that he wasn't just an oversized thug, but had the brains to back it up. I don't get that impression from this version just yet. But there's still plenty of time.

I would like to see Hun portrayed as a more calculating criminal genius, despite his appearance, anyone who could stand up against the Shredder has to be more then just a dumb musclebound thug, someone who can stay ahead of the police and the other gangs/organized crime factions. Equal parts of Marvel's Kingpin and Gangs of New York's William "Bill the Butcher" Cutting.

[TristanHuwJones]

Originally Posted by oldmanwinters

By the way, very interesting use of profanity in this issue. I think excessive profanity waters down dialogue in general, but this style reminds me of old-school comic dialogue where angry people spoke in symbols.

Also, I really like how all Hun's dialogue was in black word bubbles with white text. That alone made me think this guy was bad news. Well, that and the fact that he can get a knife stabbed into vital regions and pull it out like it was a magic trick.

Thanks mate. The swearing was more of a character/realism thing.I know some people are really good with their language, but I don't think hardened criminals are going to be too concerned about offending people. They do whatever is necessary to get their points across, so if they're not f***in' happy, they not f***in' happy.

Yeah, I wanted to give him more of a presence, and I think by altering his "voice" with

Spoiler:

the knife to the throat,

it works on both a visual and "audible" level. Glad it worked!

[Andrew NDB]

I'm not sure how people talking like real people makes a thing of less worth. People swear.

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

Thanks mate. The swearing was more of a character/realism thing.I know some people are really good with their language, but I don't think hardened criminals are going to be too concerned about offending people. They do whatever is necessary to get their points across, so if they're not f***in' happy, they not f***in' happy.

That has been my experience with hardened criminals.

I think it may also be an urban vein of the "grotesque" writing style....
Or maybe it is just realism and I'm thinking too hard about it. Probably the latter.

[TristanHuwJones]

Originally Posted by DK2

Tristan, I liked this issue. I didn't know about the characters non Mirage canon or existance from the 2K3 toon til reading Dan Berger's opening editorial. Its nice to see more from Caseys past, that he could've died when he was younger. It let all the others learn about Caseys rough life. I really liked Paul Harmon's artwork. Its not often you see an artist interpret the TMNT to be more realistic looking among the setting of the comics and the real world. I think no artist since AC Farley's style IMO. But was this all worth it for the Hun character? Will we see him again? To me he didn't make an impact as a new major villain. He was a big gang leader, thug guy. He ain't no Shredder impact in just one issue. To me he was also a Casey foe moreso than a TMNT foe. I'm only stating this based on the premise of Dans editorial about the inception of using Hun was to make more major TMNT villains. Which I didn't see Hun as having that long term villainy. But a nice read overall. I'm now thinking of reading back your guys' past 2 Tales issues. I look forward to your TOTMNT #59.

Happy you enjoyed it DK, but what do you mean when you ask "was it all worth it...?" Do you mean, was the effort put into the character worth it? If so, I would definitely say so. I was asked in an interview this morning about my writing background having an influence on the way I tell stories, and it does. You can definitely get away with telling some really great once off stories in Tales. Dan and Murph both did it constantly, but you look at all the stories in the TMNT comics that carry some real resonance, they're all stories that have been on the slow boil -- Return of the Shredder, Return to New York, City At War. This stories all came about because of the result of something, and while each issue within those arcs is great to read on its own, it really comes full circle when the story becomes clearer. While "Hun" is a relatively self contained episode in the life of the TMNT/Casey, it's only really the beginning of something bigger, which is why Lin is involved. You'll start to see these things becoming clearer as time goes on. You gotta remember too, the guy was meant to be in for life. Somehow he's out. A smart criminal wouldn't immediately start splashing about proclaiming himself the king of the underworld as soon as he gets out. Takes time to build

If Tales ends up being cancelled in the future and there's no way to continue the story, I'll write out the grand scheme of where I saw him going for everyone to check out. Hopefully it won't come to that though, and you can just keep enjoying things as they unfold. If you haven't read #36 in a while, I suggest you do, as there's a common thread that will run through all my stories this year, and it all starts in #36 with what is uncovered there.
#50 will be important to #61 (which will pick up on certain threads throughout #36, #56 and #59) too.

Originally Posted by Dragon Turtle

Equal parts of Marvel's Kingpin and Gangs of New York's William "Bill the Butcher" Cutting.

That's pretty much how I'm writing him

[DK2]

Tristan you make some good points in your response to my post. What you put into it with your ideas certainly made me agree with you. Yeah what I meant was if Hun was worth putting into the Mirage TMNT universe, trying to make him a new major villain. I just didn't see it, if this story and Hun is just a one shot story. But if he shows up again I'll sure be interested to see where it'll go. Dragon Turtle made a good point about Hun being someone that stood up to the Shredder. Tristan you've got me now wanting to read your issues again now. Maybe your Tales issues should get the Tales TMNT Vol.6 trade book one day? Looks like they should be put together. Wish your run was straight issues printed.

[Andrew NDB]

Got this issue sooner than I expected.

#56 is an opus of bad-assery. What else can I say? It really sells Hun fantastically as not so much a multi-faceted human being as it does a gale force of ass-kicking that sweeps across the pages. He's weaved into things in a way that seems organic enough, then leaves us wanting more.

Some fantastic glory pages of art of the TMNT by Harmon, too. His TMNT should serve as the benchmark for any modern day takes on them, for certain. As with the previous two yarns, what we get with his attention to shading and such -- a perfectly sound alternative to the duotones that really gave the old comics that grit. I wish issues like this one even would take it further, and get printed on newsprint-like paper like the old ones for added effect.

A couple of nits I could pick, but I won't. This is the kind of TMNT book that should be on shelves every month. If Tales of the TMNT had consistently been of this quality and vision month-in, month-out I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be sitting on the chopping block it's found itself on.

[TristanHuwJones]

Originally Posted by DK2

Tristan you make some good points in your response to my post. What you put into it with your ideas certainly made me agree with you. Yeah what I meant was if Hun was worth putting into the Mirage TMNT universe, trying to make him a new major villain. I just didn't see it, if this story and Hun is just a one shot story. But if he shows up again I'll sure be interested to see where it'll go. Dragon Turtle made a good point about Hun being someone that stood up to the Shredder. Tristan you've got me now wanting to read your issues again now. Maybe your Tales issues should get the Tales TMNT Vol.6 trade book one day? Looks like they should be put together. Wish your run was straight issues printed.

The only story of mine he won't appear in will be August's issue, but it's a continuation of the underworld turmoil.

That'd be neat, but I don't think Mirage will be putting any more trades out until the sales start picking up. And unless the schedule and format of the book changes then I think things will remain mixed for a while.

They're all very valid points you're bringing up, and you should definitely let them know at Mirage. I think the greater the fan response is to the comics the more likely it is that things will start to change. Forever War happened out of fan response. People just need to show that they're still interested!

[TristanHuwJones]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Got this issue sooner than I expected.

#56 is an opus of bad-assery. What else can I say? It really sells Hun fantastically as not so much a multi-faceted human being as it does a gale force of ass-kicking that sweeps across the pages. He's weaved into things in a way that seems organic enough, then leaves us wanting more.

Some fantastic glory pages of art of the TMNT by Harmon, too. His TMNT should serve as the benchmark for any modern day takes on them, for certain. As with the previous two yarns, what we get with his attention to shading and such -- a perfectly sound alternative to the duotones that really gave the old comics that grit. I wish issues like this one even would take it further, and get printed on newsprint-like paper like the old ones for added effect.

A couple of nits I could pick, but I won't. This is the kind of TMNT book that should be on shelves every month. If Tales of the TMNT had consistently been of this quality and vision month-in, month-out I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be sitting on the chopping block it's found itself on.

Thanks Andrew, this means a lot to both of us

I'm all for nits being picked too. Otherwise I would have never noticed the mysterious fifth turtle of #50!

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

I'm all for nits being picked too. Otherwise I would have never noticed the mysterious fifth turtle of #50!

Well... I don't have any nits as far as mistakes go -- I think you did your homework, and am actually curious where you personally place this in continuity (with the other Tales and within/or Vol. 2).

Just, I'm kind of with an earlier poster about the TMNT being grounded in the early 90s around then. I get that a lot of comics like DC and Marvel kind of exist in a vacuum in that there is no specific years tied to anything and rather there's always an ever-moving "Present Day" in those. It makes sense. i.e., Batman comics right now are set in 2009, and he became Batman around 1999 because that happened around "Ten Years Ago" in the comics... and next year, it'll be set in 2010 and he would have become Batman around 2000. He didn't become Batman in 1939 when the first Batman comic was published, or even in 1987 when the Year One reboot happened -- DC and their like exist in a flux... time does pass, but it's incremental where real life years equate to weeks/months in comic time (which makes sense: if you actually set aside, say, 12 issues of Batman or Superman and read them back-to-back... sure it took a year for them to hit shelves, but how much time is really passing in between issues? I could guarantee if you read them logically you'll come up with maybe like two weeks on the average, if that).

What I'm getting at is, one of the things that -- I don't know if I want to say it made it endearing, or even made it "better" than other comics, per se -- set the Mirage TMNT apart from the more traditional comic book universes and made it something of an oddity (not in a bad way) is that it actually seemed to move more or less in real time. I mean, when we read TMNT #1, that really did happen in 1984 and now exists as a period piece... you know? And then we have Volume 4 which further cements things by mentioning 9/11 happening before the Utroms touched down and all that (and I think even a Mr. Tupper backup threw an 80s year at us for Don on the typewriter). Granted, it's become some kind of alternate dimension of things where Utroms landed in 2001 or 2002, but still in realtime (well... at least until Vol. 4 has fallen into the on-again, off-again limbo it's in now where years are passing between issues). At least, that's been the intent, I think.

You probably know where I'm going with this... the camera phone. A big part of me wants to jump aboard the "Mirage TMNT Comics Aren't Chained to Specific Years or Time" wagon and I see good benefit in that (the whole, as time keeps passing in our reality, the TMNT aren't anchored to decades ago thing)... but I've grown accustomed to seeing the TMNT comics move in roughly real time. If it were me and I saw TMNT as not moving in real time but in the same kind of flux as Batman, Superman, etc., I would have just made things ambiguous. You know, maybe not have the picture taken on a camera phone... but maybe, instead, a top-dollar camera circa early 1990s that might almost pass for a modern day digital camera at a glance... y'know? Leaving it to the reader to place it in 2009 or in 1992 or whatever.

I don't really feel super strongly about this, but it's something I've always had in my head. Your take on the TMNT time-moving is a perfectly valid one nonetheless.

[TristanHuwJones]

I wrote it as a post Vol.2 thing. #36 came just before Vol.2 (or in the time between #1 and #2) in my mind, and this comes just after. We just gave Shadow a haircut, and put her standing up on her own and playing with the video game controller at the end of Vol.2 down to her just interacting with things the way kids do, and learning to walk on her own. It's contentious, and that position might change depending on what other readers think, but it's somewhere there. Lin's had to have had time to do what she's done, and I loosely figured that time was the duration of volume 2.

I completely understand your point of view regarding the dates too, but I'm always going to stand by the notion that if there were advanced robots and nanotechnologies, advanced weaponry, personal comms units and the like in the late 80's of the TMNT universe, then cell phones should be okay. I think it just goes back to what another post said about them being so relatively mundane in the real world of today. Purely from a creative standpoint, as it just makes things far easier to write and really push stories. You're totally on the money with the DC analogy too. That sort of safety net is very valuable when it comes to comic books.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

I completely understand your point of view regarding the dates too, but I'm always going to stand by the notion that if there were advanced robots and nanotechnologies, advanced weaponry, personal comms units and the like in the late 80's of the TMNT universe,

I've always attributed that to the Foot being ahead of the game on tech. As a modern day ninja clan operating in relative secret, they had to be. And Stockman's stuff... he was a mad scientist, wasn't he? I don't see many people lighting torches, saying that Mary Shelley's Frankenstein ought to be considered set in the 21st century what with the successful organ/limb transplants and resuscitations and all that.

then cell phones should be okay.

Hey, there actually were cell phones in the early 90s. There were. They just looked like this:



And gave you brain tumors.

Also there were satellite phones before that for the rich and famous, I think. Camera phones, though? Ehhh...

Purely from a creative standpoint, as it just makes things far easier to write and really push stories.

Believe me, I get what you're saying and that's why I don't feel super strongly about it. In fact, if there was ever to be any kind of "Ultimate TMNT" (Mirage) universe, I'd probably want to see it set in a similar kind of flux (and not so the TMNT can just stay teenagers forever -- in fact, I don't want that at all -- but just to allow for a little bit of suspension of disbelief as the years pass... and by this I just mean things like avoiding mentioning events that happen in the present, avoid giving year dates, pop culture stuff that might date things, etc.)... but as it is, I just think there's so many things in canon that set anchors in place as far as time settings.

Don't want to take this thread on a tangent, though. This issue is the epitome of TMNT bad-assery.

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

I wrote it as a post Vol.2 thing. #36 came just before Vol.2 (or in the time between #1 and #2) in my mind, and this comes just after. We just gave Shadow a haircut, and put her standing up on her own and playing with the video game controller at the end of Vol.2 down to her just interacting with things the way kids do, and learning to walk on her own. It's contentious, and that position might change depending on what other readers think, but it's somewhere there. Lin's had to have had time to do what she's done, and I loosely figured that time was the duration of volume 2.

Yeah, that's the time frame I had in my mind. Since Don is away with Splinter from the end of Volume 1 to the first few issues of Volume 2, I can't see any way to justify him coming back to New York for a while. Volume 2 pretty much has to happen without interruption. The Turtles are reunited at the end of Volume 2 and living with Casey, April, and Shadow. That seemed to be the environment of #56.

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

I completely understand your point of view regarding the dates too, but I'm always going to stand by the notion that if there were advanced robots and nanotechnologies, advanced weaponry, personal comms units and the like in the late 80's of the TMNT universe, then cell phones should be okay. I think it just goes back to what another post said about them being so relatively mundane in the real world of today. Purely from a creative standpoint, as it just makes things far easier to write and really push stories. You're totally on the money with the DC analogy too. That sort of safety net is very valuable when it comes to comic books.

I just think this would be a funny comedic bit...
Action, sci-fi movie set in a fictional 1920s-50s timeframe. Very art deco look to the city and everybody dresses like one would expect from the era. World War II or Cold War tensions abound...
Now the twist: lazer guns are a common choice for bank robbers, soldiers fly around on jet packs ala the Rocketeer, mad scientists are constantly inventing amazing contraptions...
Now the comedy: Two major characters' conversion is interrupted by a familiar ring tone. One character yells out "is it a bomb?" The other nonchalantly whips out his cell phone to check his caller ID. His befuddled friend exclaims "WHAT is that thing?" He responds, "It's a portable telephone, don't tell me you've never seen these. In a world so technologically advanced as ours, does a portable telephone really surprise you?"

LOL?

[TristanHuwJones]

That would be pretty goddamn funny actually.

And your logic regarding Vol.2 is pretty much what I go by as well.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by oldmanwinters

Ah, I see... Did you just now get around to reading Tales #41?

You mean "Swan Song", one of the best issues of Tales Vol. 2?

Haven't gotten around to #56 yet. Since I'm in a state of perpetual behindness with this series, I'll probably get it around the end of the month or early April. Normally plot/action/genre stories aren't my favorite TMNT entries, but evey once in a while you need some crime drama and villainy, so I guess I'm looking forward to it with some reservations.

I'm super excited for Tristan's next issue though. An outsider's take on the Turtles as an urban legend has loads of potential.