Is the TMNT 87 Pilot (Season 1) the Best Season?

[PizzaPower1985]

It's common knowledge that the 87 Turtle toon was created to sell toys. There seems to be fan conjecture that the 5 part miniseries that became Season 1 is the best the show has to offer and that it got noticeably more juvenile, lighthearted, and comedic as the series wore on. Now, is this really the best season of the show and does the tonal shift happen immediately with the beginning of season 2 or is it further down the line? Several older TMNT fans I have talked to on other forums have claimed that they can't even watch the show past the 1st season. Others have said they like Red Sky (8-10) the best and can't be bothered with seasons 1-7. All seem to agree however that the miniseries has a kind of "heart" and charm that the other seasons lack. I think even Eastman and Laird have claimed a time or 2 that this was their favorite season (correct me if I'm wrong).

What, if anything, is it that sets season 1 apart from the rest of the show? Better story? Less juvenile?
(With discussion and disection, maybe this can become a Pilot Season Appreciation Thread?)

[ABrown]

I do think that the five part mini series was the best story the show had to offer. I think season two was a very enjoyable season, but not as good as the first season. Seasons three and four both had some very good episodes. However, there was as a lot of stinkers with episodes featuring far lower quality production. This was a result of the creators trying to put out as many episodes as they possibly could. I found seasons 5-7 to be consistently good. Then came the "Red Sky" seasons, 8-10. No longer a child, and now a teenager, those seasons were exactly what I was looking for in an action cartoon. The original five part mini-series was the closest to the red sky seasons, in that it took the show more seriously than seasons 2-7.

[neatoman]

While the first season is better than most of the subsequent episodes, I am not willing to call it "good" on closer inspection. All it really has that the other seasons don't are better fight scenes, less reliance on humor and some higher level of continuity. Arguably pacing too.

I can just go over some weirdness in terms of the writing. Not necessarily plotholes but certainly some strange parts that should have been handled better:

• Characters tend to come to rather... Interesting conclusions. Such as assuming burglars were ninjas because they used... Japanese rope... Yeah, and I guess that if they used Swedish rope they had to be Vikings... I realise this particular instance might a joke but it sure as hell is not funny if that's the case.
  
• Hamato Yoshi flees to the US despite not having commited any real crime, just accused of planning a crime (in a rather clumsy and obvious set-up). There simply shouldn't be a need to flee to another country, he wouldn't be guilty in any proper court of law. Also there's the whole having money for a plane ticket but not getting a job to rent an aparment bit. A sewer should never be option 1.
  
• Having Splinter and Hamato Yoshi be the same character, even though it's incorrectly praised for "improving" the believability of Splinter knowing martial arts (even though there's well over a decade between his mutation in the comic and the start of story and he could have easily trained alongside the turtles in the gap), presents problems. The real big one is that it makes no sense for the Turtles to turn into humanoids because he touches them but for him to turn into a rat because of a previous interaction. While there are apologists for this, it still contradicts the rules established a few seconds earlier.
  
• Shredder has an army of robotic ninjas, so why send out common thugs for any purpose? He only does this once and a reason is never given. If the purpose was just to give Bebop and Rocksteady an origin, then the Zoo animals themselves would have worked out fine (more on that later). It could have been for the purpose of recreating the Turtles' introduction in the comics, but something tells me that wasn't much of a concern. The Robot Ninjas also replaced the human ninjas, clearly implying that Shredder values the robots more. Why he didn't just demote the former ninjas, who would be more skilled than random punks, is anyone's guess.
  
• On the subject of the robots, why dress them up as ninjas? Sure, disguising them as human might be a good idea but the point of that would be to have them blend in among crowds. If they're just wearing suspicious ninja outfits, what's the point of the disguise? At that point they might as well not even hide their appearence. Besides, it's the outfit that tips off Splinter as to where they come from. It really seems like the show clinged to the idea of the Foot Clan being ninjas even though it just ended up being a cosmetic aspect as a result of all this Technodrome/Dimension X nonsense, an aspect that just looks a bit confused.
  
• Shredder's method of attempting to kill Splinter with mutagen is bizarre. If he knew that it was mutagen, then the possibility of Hamato Yoshi turning into some dangerous monster is something he should have been aware of, at which point he would rule out the method and try something else. If he didn't know what the chemical was, then he was attempting to get rid of someone without knowing what he was doing, which is stupid. Even more importantly however, there wouldn't have been a need to kill him at all. He had a Technodrome which (despite seeming like a total piece of junk in the other seasons) is a powerful war machine, Hamato Yoshi was at that point a hobo with pet turtles and "has been with rats". He's hardly a threat in the first place.
  
• The Turtles are so worried that April will expose them to the outside world to the point of threatening to keep her prisoner at the start of the season. However, not only do they rather frequently walk around in broad daylight and ride around in a blimp, sometimes not even in disguise, but April does a newstory on them by the end. The mere fact that they're exposed to the world is treated like no big deal when it actually happens.
  
• The exact timeframe between Shredder meeting Krang, mutating the Turtles and the start of the series makes very little sense. Either the Turtles were trained in an extremely short timespan (like a week or so) or Shredder has been sitting on the Technodrome for way longer than we're meant to think (like 20 years). There's really no happy medium here either, as far as we can tell, the Technodrome offers the user the near instant ability to take over the world. And they say Splinter refining memories of martial arts in a decade is a stretch...
  
• On the topic of Shredder and Krang's relationship, there are a bunch of questions in regards to that. First off, how did they meet exactly? If Shredder just happened to stumble upon the Technodrome by accident, that would mean Krang just teamed up with the first human he came into contact with. If Krang sought out Shredder, why him? His intention is for a human to construct a body for him and his pick is a ninja? Wouldn't an engineer make more sense? He's clearly not interested in a long term alliance with a human (at least not in this season) as implied by his intention to let his army swarm the earth and crush it. Besides, the automated robot factory in the Technodrome would eliminate the need for an extra pair of hands, why take on an ally at all? There is also that point where he somehow managed to make it to the surface and rescues Mike without the help of a body... Also, you'd figure at least one episode out of the 180+ episodes that followed would do a flashback explaining any of this, which of course didn't happen. Don't know why Ninja Warlord meets Alien Brain would make for such a boring and unnecessary story in the minds of the writers, but I guess they felt that was a mundane and obvious scenario to them?
  
• Alright, now for Bebop and Rocksteady's origin. As said before, there really is no need for the human thugs to be mutated. The fact that the Turtles themselves started out as regular Turtles (that might not have been around for very long) makes it clear that the show has no problems with turning animals into humanoids. Which means that you might as well mutate the animals, no need for "volunteers". It's also pretty clear that they were tricked into mutating, so why aren't they resentful? There are also other mutants Shredder created but they never play any real part in the story. We see one of them get used for a demonstration of the anti-mutagen ray.
  
• Just adding another point here. All things considered, having the mutagen both turn animals into humanoids and humans into animal-men was a bit of a mistake. Partially for the reasons mentioned above but also because it breaks apart quite quickly, especially with the rules in place. The "last thing you touched" rule was already inconsistantly applied when the Turtles and Splinter mutated, but it really fails to take into account the abundance of lifeforms anything comes into contact with. Clothing is usully made of the tissue of other living things, you breathe in pollen all the time and let's not even get started on eating. If the idea is that the creature in question needs to be alive, then one might wonder about micro-organisms and parasites. And with the idea of the creatures still being alive, this also brings us to what happened to the Rhino and Warthog, what did Shredder do to them once he mutated Bebop and Rocksteady? This once again points to why the human thugs were just pointless middle-men because now we don't know where the animals went as they never went back to the zoo. Did Shredder kill them? Did he keep them around? Did he let them loose in the wild? Did they fuse to Bebop and Rocksteady? Were the humans just misdirection and the mutants were actually the animals all along? That last one might sound crazy but ignoring subsequent episodes were that clearly isn't the case, it could be the case for all we know in season 1, as I don't think they directly mention their origin for the rest of the season. Anyway, the point is that the changes to how the mutagen worked simply wasn't needed.

So the writing (and the show overall) was always bad. But it was more ambitious, so it at least gets props for trying a bit more early on.

[TommyT]

The mini was the best they did. It was the best of the entire run.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

While season 1 is indeed a great season to start off the show, I would heavily disagree that its the best season that the show has to offer (that honour would go to season 3, followed by season 7 imo).

In terms of animation, it is definetly got the highest budget, which makes sense considering that it was burdened with the duty of kicking off the 87 series in popularity, but I would argue that the humour, characterisations and world-building are done better in later seasons, especially seasons 2 and 3.

Even the later seasons have plenty of action in many episodes, so I'm not among those people who would say that season 1 is exclusive in having action.

The villains, Burne and Vernon are either less comedic or not comedic at all in this season, that's the only difference when it comes to characterisations.

I would be interesting in seeing the source where its stated that this was the favourite season of both Kevin and Peter.

I know I've read somehere that Peter Laird stopped watching the show after season 3, but nothing about what parts he liked.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

The villains, Burne and Vernon are either less comedic or not comedic at all in this season, that's the only difference when it comes to characterisations.

Their characters weren't built until Season 2.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by TommyT

The mini was the best they did. It was the best of the entire run.

Are there episodes from other seasons that you would compare to Season 1 or that you like as much?

[CyberCubed]

My order is something like this:

Season 1 > Season 7 > Season 3 > Season 2 > Season 6 > Season 8 > Season 5 > Season 4 > Season 10 > Season 9 >>>> Euro Vacation season

But that being said I like episodes in every season, so.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

My order is something like this:

Season 1 > Season 7 > Season 3 > Season 2 > Season 6 > Season 8 > Season 5 > Season 4 > Season 10 > Season 9 >>>> Euro Vacation season

But that being said I like episodes in every season, so.

Why do you rank season 3 so high?

[Leo656]

I gotta say, neatoman, while you're a much harsher critic than me, that list is pretty bulletproof. Nice job.

Like I don't even hate the show, and I always hold the first "season" as among the best of the series. But those are some pretty glaring flaws that can really only be excused or ignored by shrugging and saying, "Well, it's a kids' show," which is more of an admission than anything. So... Yeah.

These things don't bother me as deeply but you obviously put a lot of thought into it, and it's pretty tough to refute those points. Kudos.

Except I always for some reason assumed that Yoshi came to America by boat, but then I haven't paid it much mind in forever. Definitely would have been cheaper than flying, though.

[PizzaPower1985]

I have actually edited the 5 parts into a 1 hr 46 min. .mp4 file. The sources are not the best quality but it's serviceable for anyone who wants to see the miniseries as one single movie. I like it but the really glaring parts are where the turtles voices don't match the characters. There's a part where April tries to leave the sewer and Donnie flips and lands in front of her with his bo drawn. Then Raph's voice threatens something like "you're not going anywhere" while Donnie is speaking to her. There are other mismatched dialog-to-character moments and those are the worst parts of the miniseries to me.

[ABrown]

@neatoman - The points that you make, while all valid, make me think of the "How Seriously Should the 1987 Cartoon be Taken" thread (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=62289). The show is far more enjoyable if you don't think that much about stuff like that. Just enjoy it for what it is.

Originally Posted by Leo656

Except I always for some reason assumed that Yoshi came to America by boat, but then I haven't paid it much mind in forever. Definitely would have been cheaper than flying, though.

I've always assumed the same. It seems unlikely that someone who was "pennyless" would have been purchasing a plane ticket. The far more likely scenario is that he would've snuck aboard a ship heading for the U.S.

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

I have actually edited the 5 parts into a 1 hr 46 min. .mp4 file.

Or you could watch "The Epic Begins"

[Leo656]

Pretty sure with no other explanation "snuck aboard a boat" was my headcanon, too.

Without getting too deeply into the "How seriously..." debate, I am not sure some people comprehend what it's like for a person who has an actively analytical mind if they, themselves, don't have one. Or even if you're just someone who writes, or even took classes on writing, etc. Your brain asks questions. You notice things without trying to. The "just shut your brain off" thing simply does not work for a lot of people. And it doesn't make them "joyless" or "bitter" or any of a hundred other adjectives that are sometimes lobbed about. If a person is wired to see ALL of what something is - The Good, Bad, and Ugly of it all - then it's not something you can turn off, and having people who are wired differently always tell you that this is something you should do, is frustrating. At times, incredibly so. It comes dangerously close to being told, "Why do you even bother to think? It ruins other people's fun". I know nobody is ever trying to send that message deliberately, but it sometimes feels like that. Not saying that in this case, just in general.

[ABrown]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Without getting too deeply into the "How seriously..." debate, I am not sure some people comprehend what it's like for a person who has an actively analytical mind if they, themselves, don't have one. Or even if you're just someone who writes, or even took classes on writing, etc. Your brain asks questions. You notice things without trying to. The "just shut your brain off" thing simply does not work for a lot of people. And it doesn't make them "joyless" or "bitter" or any of a hundred other adjectives that are sometimes lobbed about. If a person is wired to see ALL of what something is - The Good, Bad, and Ugly of it all - then it's not something you can turn off, and having people who are wired differently always tell you that this is something you should do, is frustrating. At times, incredibly so. It comes dangerously close to being told, "Why do you even bother to think? It ruins other people's fun". I know nobody is ever trying to send that message deliberately, but it sometimes feels like that. Not saying that in this case, just in general.

Hmm, I sort of get what your saying. But if you're not able to just enjoy a show that's not meant to be taken that seriously, you're gonna miss out on a lot of shows from that time, that I think still hold up very well today. Off the top of my head there's Muppet Babies, The Super Mario Brothers Super Show, Tiny Toon Adventures. I could come up with things from all of those shows that really don't make any sense in the real world. However, I prefer to just not think about them, and enjoy the show.

[Leo656]

Not exactly.

I still watch and enjoy all that stuff from time to time, I just don't have the capacity to ignore or hand-wave things. It doesn't entirely lessen my enjoyment of them but it makes me recognize where there's obvious room for improvement.

8-year old me would have argued to the death that any of those things were flawless. 38-year old me isn't inclined or obligated to do that.

"Super Mario Bros. Super Show" is also objectively flat-out awful, though. I mean I will always, always love it "for what it is" and never apologize, but... geez, man, that show was pretty well known to be crap even back then. You best believe I bought the original DVD collector's box sets the day they came out, though. But man, that show's just plain lousy on any unbiased level. You lumped that in with good shows!

I recently watched a video from Sega Lord X where he summed up my feelings pretty well. I think he was talking about the Sega Saturn, but it's a pretty sound philosophy all-around. I'm paraphrasing, but it mostly went to the effect of, "Loving something doesn't mean you pretend that it's flawless, or even that you ignore those flaws. It means recognizing those things are real and choosing to love something for what it is, anyway, flaws and all."

That's what I do. Some people simply act like even recognizing those flaws or pointing them out is an act of betrayal, when in truth that's generally not the intention. And further, some people literally can't help but notice those things, anyway. But it doesn't make them haters, either.

[ABrown]

Originally Posted by Leo656

"Super Mario Bros. Super Show" is also objectively flat-out awful, though. I mean I will always, always love it "for what it is" and never apologize, but... geez, man, that show was pretty well known to be crap even back then. You best believe I bought the original DVD collector's box sets the day they came out, though. But man, that show's just plain lousy on any unbiased level. You lumped that in with good shows!

I think it actually holds up very well. My step son and I watched (or in my case re-watched) the entire series in the mid 2000's when it was released on DVD. And now my seven year old twin boys love it as well. It's one of the few shows from my childhood that either he or my twin boys have enjoyed watching with me.

[Leo656]

That show is how the Mario characters sound in my head, forever. Otherwise... eh, it's very, very, very cheap and slapdash. I think even Captain Lou said they basically made it for like, no money at all and were mostly just winging it. He obviously did what he could with it, though, performing with much enthusiasm as per Lou's usual. "Lousual"?

I would never say it has no value whatsoever but it's not objectively well-made, either. But obviously there's fun to be had with it, sure. Some of the charm is lost in the cartoon segments since the original TV episodes used licensed music, and the DVDs use that Jimmy Hart rip-off of "Beat It" in just about every episode. That, more than anything, got old very fast!

[IMJ]

I think it's the best. Cohesive story. Great animation and some of the best art direction of the entire series.

When I think of the run I always think of the great scene of Mike on the rooftop twirling his chucks in the air after leaping towards to foot soldiers. Or the cool moment where Don whacks Krang's android body with his staff as it "clunks" or the flying car chase - all of which were animated with character and beauty.

It's unrivaled across the rest of the seasons.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by ABrown

Or you could watch "The Epic Begins"

I specifically made the edit because Epic Begins 1988 VHS is nowhere to be found to watch online and 2. It edits out a lot of footage from the actual miniseries.

[ABrown]

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

I specifically made the edit because Epic Begins 1988 VHS is nowhere to be found to watch online and 2. It edits out a lot of footage from the actual miniseries.

I was just kidding. No one in their right mind should be trying to get a hold of that ridiculous edit of the five part mini series. If I remember correctly, it doesn't even feature the Baxter Stockman episode.