Do you know anyone who is transgender in real life?

[Leo656]

Sure, but I was just citing an example of how things can often be more complex than they appear on the surface. Which is more or less true of any topic.

And no, to your question weight classes wouldn't mean anything in the sports field. People don't like to say so out loud anymore but the entire structural foundation of a person who was "assigned male at birth" and a person who was "assigned female at birth" are entirely different in a way that hormones and "treatments" simply aren't ever going to balance out. The person who was "assigned male at birth" is going to run faster, jump higher, lift heavier and hit harder than 99.9999% of people who were "assigned female at birth". This is just one of those things that can't be changed. Which is why when it comes to sports scenarios, most people don't think it's fair to have trans- and cis-gendered people compete against each other directly. There is no way at all to make it completely fair, and thus it makes things somewhat darkly ironic given how the group of people demanding to be treated fairly are in fact the ones making that situation less-fair for everyone else.

The only solution that's fair to anyone involved in THAT situation, would be to have sports leagues that were only for transgender competitors. But that's "exclusive" and "bigoted", so again, nobody wants to have the conversation despite it being a valid one to have. So what specifically happens in sports is, males transition to female and compete against females who have identified as female their entire lives (it almost never happens in reverse, which one has to admit is a little bit odd; virtually no women transition to male to subsequently try and compete against male athletes, it's almost exclusively male-to-female athletes who do this), and while they were athletically average competitors when identifying as male, they immediately dominate the field against "those who were assigned female at birth" once they transition to female. They don't just "compete", they become overwhelmingly dominant, every time. Thus, the girls get upset, people sue, the transgender athletes say they're being discriminated against and "just want to be who they are", and it just makes everything really angry and messy for everyone. There's a perfectly valid solution to the problem - just let them have a league all their own - but it's not good enough, according to them. So nothing really gets resolved, and all that comes out of it is more anger on all sides.

So yeah, it's just one example of a gray area, but my point was simply that gray areas do exist on the subject. And that it's not entirely fair to dismiss those who raise the point as being bigots, as is often the case. Some people have a very fair claim to their grievance, depending on the specific situation. "Live and let live, nobody's causing any problems for anyone" is simply over-simplifying. No, it's not right to take a circumstance and use it to judge everyone who belongs to a larger group of people, BUT, at the same time it isn't fair to simply throw out and disregard examples such as the one I've cited by claiming the one positing them is a hate-monger, and I've absolutely seen people do that as well.

I mean, I'm not trying to start A Thing, I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate. People can say about just about any topic, "There's absolutely no problem that could ever come from _______, nobody's life is disrupted by ______," and I'm just saying Yeah, There Is. There always is.

[Cryomancer]

I guess it's just one of those things that will have to get worked out in time. Would be an easier conversation if the opposition side wasn't "i don't like you and don't want you to even exist" is all.

[Leo656]

Well in theory, sure, but that assumes a lot about mankind's capacity for goodness. And that just makes me laugh.

There's always gonna be A Group that gets sh*t on. Before them it was the gays. But it's every group at one time or other. Jews, blacks, Christians, Mormons, Scientologists, Muslims, the entire nation of Israel... I could go on. Everybody eats sh*t at some time or other. And you're always gonna get a bunch of people who not only say it's okay, but encourage it. Even among the "tolerant" Left, there's a whole ton of people who will say out loud that Israel has no right to exist. A lot of black people will come right out and openly say the world would be a better place without Jewish people, period. Pretty much everyone with a brain hates Scientologists. And, of course, there's my never-ending campaign against fat people everywhere.

Point being, these are ALL groups who "just wanna be who they are" and be left alone, who mostly "aren't hurting anyone", and for every one of those groups, right now there's ten million people saying "Kill 'em all, f*ck it, world's better off without 'em." This isn't New News. Nor is it ever changing. After a few million years of human evolution, if it hasn't changed by NOW... then it's simply in our DNA and isn't going away.

They're just the latest group to take center stage of that conversation and claim that they've got it worse than everyone else who ever got a raw deal, which is another thing Every Discriminated Group also does.

I mean I really don't know what people expect. Everybody hates Everyone, that's human nature for ya. I mean by comparison I've got it pretty good as a Straight White Guy, but by blood I'm Irish-Catholic, which makes me Worthless Trash to a good chunk of Planet Earth, too, for various reasons. I just choose not to give a sh*t about it.

But as far as, "Those poor people, everybody hates them for no reason," it's like yeah, take a number. That's literally been going on forever and ever. And frankly most of those other groups HAVE had it worse, at one time or other, than transgendered people claim to have it Right Now.

[Andrew NDB]

The angriest, nastiest, loudest people I know are ones posting on their wall or Twitter everyday about compassion and tolerance. "Why aren't you being compassionate, you FASCIST!" and so on.

[Voltron]

That's called the tolerance paradox. It states that a free society cannot tolerate intolerance, or else the society falls to fascism.

Before anyone goes "that's exactly what (that group) sounds like!", that's the point of a paradox. The moment you say it, you're that person.

[Cryomancer]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

The angriest, nastiest, loudest people I know are ones posting on their wall or Twitter everyday about compassion and tolerance. "Why aren't you being compassionate, you FASCIST!" and so on.

Yeah, those are weirdo extremists that aren't helping anyone. I'm sure they'd call me a bigot over something too.

Almost anyone who ties themselves down to one subject only forever is a chore to talk to at best.

[Leo656]

Yeah, there's people I like a lot who ONLY ever post political sh*t on their FB, and it's exhausting. Sometimes I'll try and have a one-on-one with them in private about an entirely different topic just because I miss talking to them, but they'll often be "too busy"... posting more and more political sh*t and ranting and raving. And if all you knew of them was what they posted online, one would have no choice but to assume that they were absolutely miserable and thoroughly consumed by anger and impotent rage.

Once again, not starting A Thing, but merely positing a sincere observation, but it's overwhelmingly predominantly people who skew left who do this. My right-leaning friends might make one or two political posts or comments a day, sometimes they don't make any. And if you don't agree with them about what they post, there might be a brief back-and-forth but they'll just say "Agree to disagree, bro. Still love you though. When we hanging out?"

On the Other Side... oooooof. Dozens and dozens of political Rage Posts every single day. Like, they absolutely have to be posting this stuff while eating or taking a sh*t or "spending time" with their kids, given how non-stop it is. Constant misery and anger. And if you don't agree? "Just un-Friend me. I don't know why we're even friends in the first place if you can't see what I'm saying, and frankly I don't need anyone like that hanging around." Try and talk to them about something else? They're too busy "saving the world" or some sh*t to give you the time of day. It's ALL they wanna talk about, and it's gotta be Their Way or No Way, and it's f*cking exhausting.

There's lots of people I have sincere love for on all sides of the political and social spectrum. But at the end of the day I'd rather laugh with the Sinners than cry with the Saints.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Voltron

That's called the tolerance paradox. It states that a free society cannot tolerate intolerance, or else the society falls to fascism.

Before anyone goes "that's exactly what (that group) sounds like!", that's the point of a paradox. The moment you say it, you're that person.

This kind of sounds like the typical sort of liberal "owning/rewriting of the language" I see all the time. "We can't win this... so, eh, we need to invent a word to defend against this that we can use as armor!" i.e., "gatekeeper," "gaslighting," etc., all these things that are suddenly popping up.

"Tolerance paradox"? I'll admit, interesting.

Originally Posted by Leo656

Yeah, there's people I like a lot who ONLY ever post political sh*t on their FB, and it's exhausting. Sometimes I'll try and have a one-on-one with them in private about an entirely different topic just because I miss talking to them, but they'll often be "too busy"... posting more and more political sh*t and ranting and raving. And if all you knew of them was what they posted online, one would have no choice but to assume that they were absolutely miserable and thoroughly consumed by anger and impotent rage.

Once again, not starting A Thing, but merely positing a sincere observation, but it's overwhelmingly predominantly people who skew left who do this. My right-leaning friends might make one or two political posts or comments a day, sometimes they don't make any. And if you don't agree with them about what they post, there might be a brief back-and-forth but they'll just say "Agree to disagree, bro. Still love you though. When we hanging out?"

On the Other Side... oooooof. Dozens and dozens of political Rage Posts every single day. Like, they absolutely have to be posting this stuff while eating or taking a sh*t or "spending time" with their kids, given how non-stop it is. Constant misery and anger. And if you don't agree? "Just un-Friend me. I don't know why we're even friends in the first place if you can't see what I'm saying, and frankly I don't need anyone like that hanging around." Try and talk to them about something else? They're too busy "saving the world" or some sh*t to give you the time of day. It's ALL they wanna talk about, and it's gotta be Their Way or No Way, and it's f*cking exhausting.

There's lots of people I have sincere love for on all sides of the political and social spectrum. But at the end of the day I'd rather laugh with the Sinners than cry with the Saints.

Sounds about right. Most of everybody on the "Bad Side" is hiding under the bed, biting our tongues. But we're still here. Most of this side isn't glued to FB and the internets, really, the way these prominent voices are. We're doing other sh**. i.e., spending time with our kids, enjoying life.

[Cryomancer]

Of course it's not that simple, but what's the alternative exactly? You gonna put all the trans people in a damn camp? We're already doing that too often (ie, at all, to anyone). How does a child witnessing the existence of a trans person cause a negative effect? If there is a link to autism, how does that matter at all?

Tolerance paradox is happening right now, it's why so many white supremacists feel comfortable being themselves in the public eye now. Be tolerant of anyone except those who are intolerant. Decriminalize punchin' nazis.

[Voltron]

Think this has reached it's conclusion.