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Old 09-20-2017, 02:31 PM   #481
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I love Sonic CD to pieces. It's been neck and neck with S3&K ever since I played it for the first time. Which I prefer depends on a given day. It's just everything, from the visuals to the music, which is the best in a series where the music itself is always among the best in gaming. The wide variety, with different tracks and motifs for every single timeline, including different versions for the two futures, leaves you with a robust, lengthy musical experience. That's before you account for there being TWO different soundtracks between Japan and the US, with both being fantastic. The levels are huge with plenty to explore, the colors are bright, the gimmicks are fun and even the water stage, the type everyone hates, is pretty damn good. Hell, the only bleh stage of the lot is Wacky Workbench.

If there's one thing really worth mentioning, it's a part of the game that is honestly a little bit under-rated. Namely, the alternate futures. Games are often fairly simple affairs; you're out to save the world and that's what you do. But rarely, whether it's back then or now, do you see an actual effect caused by your actions. In CD, it's blatant. If you go back to the past, destroy the roboticizers, then go to the future, it has changed. It goes from rotted, bleak and dystopic to bright, happy and cheerful. You have directly affected the future of the world in a way you can see with your own eyes. Even if you don't bother to go to the future in the first two acts, but do destroy the roboticizers in the past, you are going to see it, because the third act always takes place in the future.

I imagine that's a small detail to some people, but it stands out to me. You just don't see it often. Usually, once an adventure is over, that's pretty much it. You may get some post-game stuff showing how the characters have done, but it's not super often you get a glimpse of how your actions have positively affected society or nature or the state of the world. That's with RPG's, where you typically have plenty of time to show something like that. Sonic CD does that in a simple platformer with a simple story.

STRAP ON THE RUNNING SHOES, RESCUE THE PINK HEDGEHOG, RETRIEVE THE PRECIOUS GEMS, CREATE A BRIGHT FUTURE, DEFEAT THE FAT GUY, SAVE THE WORLD.
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Old 09-20-2017, 06:54 PM   #482
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Shadow the Hedgehog is confirmed to be DLC as a playable character.

http://www.sonicstadium.org/2017/09/...ic-forces-dlc/
They're desperate ...



They're really desperate...

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Old 09-20-2017, 06:56 PM   #483
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So many homing attacks in that video.
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Old 09-20-2017, 06:59 PM   #484
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So many homing attacks in that video.
"It looks like a homing shot!"
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Old 09-21-2017, 08:33 AM   #485
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They're desperate ...



They're really desperate...

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...96/201/ed3.jpg
You really take this franchise too seriously.
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Old 09-21-2017, 09:49 AM   #486
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So Sonic Mania's denuvo/DRM is still not removed from the Steam version... It's almost a month now.
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Old 09-21-2017, 10:15 AM   #487
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So Sonic Mania's denuvo/DRM is still not removed from the Steam version... It's almost a month now.
Not only that, but Denuvo's DRM has been confirmed for Sonic Forces. If anyone complains about it Sega's just going to redirect them to this page.

At least the DRM has done noting to stop all the great mods coming out...but absolutely stinks for people that are experiencing performance issues from it. I'm no business man, but it seems to me that the cost of licensing Denuvo, the bad publicity that will affect future products, and the number of potential customers that will either ignore the product or now pirate it out of spite seem far more harmful then trying to stop pirates. Which Denuvo didn't even do because the game has been pirated and can be downloaded with the DRM removed.

How crazy is it that the Bubsy game coming out is getting better treatment? DRM free and and a real physical release for Playstation 4. No download key, just a disk.
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Old 09-21-2017, 10:28 AM   #488
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Izuka says there are no plans for an Adventure 3.

http://www.polygon.com/2017/9/19/163...l-never-happen

I don't necessarily need an Adventure 3 but I'd be more than content with a return to that gameplay style.
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Old 09-21-2017, 10:38 AM   #489
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Not only that, but Denuvo's DRM has been confirmed for Sonic Forces. If anyone complains about it Sega's just going to redirect them to this page.

At least the DRM has done noting to stop all the great mods coming out...but absolutely stinks for people that are experiencing performance issues from it. I'm no business man, but it seems to me that the cost of licensing Denuvo, the bad publicity that will affect future products, and the number of potential customers that will either ignore the product or now pirate it out of spite seem far more harmful then trying to stop pirates. Which Denuvo didn't even do because the game has been pirated and can be downloaded with the DRM removed.

How crazy is it that the Bubsy game coming out is getting better treatment? DRM free and and a real physical release for Playstation 4. No download key, just a disk.
Yeah I much prefer physical release too. But tbh the price is waay, waaayy cheaper than standard new games so that's a plus. Still, I prefer to have the options.
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Old 09-21-2017, 11:54 AM   #490
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Yeah I much prefer physical release too. But tbh the price is waay, waaayy cheaper than standard new games so that's a plus. Still, I prefer to have the options.
I agree, there should be options. But in my opinion if a game is going to be released digitally it should come DRM free. It doesn't stop pirates and it just inconveniences paying customers.
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Originally Posted by Takashi Iizuka
“From the developer standpoint, every Sonic game that we’re making is taking new steps and advances, furthering the game in a new direction, and that’s dictated where the Sonic series has been going,” Iizuka said. “If we can get the gameplay to evolve and get to a place where Adventure 3 makes sense, then you might see an Adventure 3 come out,” said Iizuka. “But we don’t want to take the entire series back to where it was just make people happy. We want to advance the idea of what a Sonic game is.”
Then how did we get Sonic Mania?...and why are Sonic Team abandoning the newest play style from Lost World in Sonic Forces in favor of a play style introduced 9 years ago? I could understand if he simply doesn't feel that game play style has anything new to offer, but his reasoning doesn't match his actions.

As for a Sonic Adventure 3...I don't know. If you asked me if I wanted a Sonic Adventure 3 a few months ago I would have said yes, but after playing Sonic Mania it really made me rethink what I want out of the series. I still like the Adventure games, Sonic Adventure 2 Battle was my first Sonic game after all, not because they were expertly designed or anything...but because in my opinion they are the only 3D Sonic games that felt good to control Sonic in. Ever since Sonic Heroes Sonic controls like he's walking on ice or those moving walkways you see at airports. I just want more freedom, more control, more momentum based physics in a Sonic Game. Fan have shown that it can work with ShayMays brilliant outline for a Sonic game and proof of concepts like Sonic Utopia and Green Hill Paradise Act 2 prove that it can work.

I don't know...every time Sega reveals something new about Sonic Forces anymore...I immediately re watch that Sonic Utopia trailer and sigh.
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Old 09-21-2017, 12:31 PM   #491
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I agree, there should be options. But in my opinion if a game is going to be released digitally it should come DRM free. It doesn't stop pirates and it just inconveniences paying customers.

Then how did we get Sonic Mania?...and why are Sonic Team abandoning the newest play style from Lost World in Sonic Forces in favor of a play style introduced 9 years ago? I could understand if he simply doesn't feel that game play style has anything new to offer, but his reasoning doesn't match his actions.

As for a Sonic Adventure 3...I don't know. If you asked me if I wanted a Sonic Adventure 3 a few months ago I would have said yes, but after playing Sonic Mania it really made me rethink what I want out of the series. I still like the Adventure games, Sonic Adventure 2 Battle was my first Sonic game after all, not because they were expertly designed or anything...but because in my opinion they are the only 3D Sonic games that felt good to control Sonic in. Ever since Sonic Heroes Sonic controls like he's walking on ice or those moving walkways you see at airports. I just want more freedom, more control, more momentum based physics in a Sonic Game. Fan have shown that it can work with ShayMays brilliant outline for a Sonic game and proof of concepts like Sonic Utopia and Green Hill Paradise Act 2 prove that it can work.
Yeah, I mean it seems like his mindset is that whenever a game gets mixed or low reception, it should be treated as if should have never happened. The real appeal of the Adventure games is the comfortable control and what you could do with the sense of physics. The sad part is that I believe that he feels that Sonic 06 was a failure because of the Adventure formula when in reality, it was due to Sega's poor choices and rushing the game out to meet the deadline. While I do think Shadow and Silver's gameplay styles were uninteresting, Sonic's worked just fine.

Sega, Sonic Team, and Izuka are all very reactional. If a game suffers from critical reception, they are quick to either drop even it's good aspects or de-list it from stores as if they never happen. You can always refine something as shown with Sonic Unleashed to Sonic Colors. And despite critics praising Secret Rings as for being "refreshing", I could not for the life of me adjust to that game's controls.

As much as I enjoy the boost gameplay, there are still some issues to address to which they still haven't to this day. It's easy to get carried away with the boost meter to the point where you miss alternate routes or worse, rush off a cliff, whereas with the Adventure games (at least SA2, which Heroes did as well) the character will stop himself if he/she hits an edge. While I love the sense of speed they give you with the boost, it doesn't encourage you to explore alternate routes. You're given more of a Mario Kart mentality when this style. There are obvious flaws with the Adventure gameplay mechanics but they didn't stop to think that they could improve on those mechanics and make the gameplay style more refined.

I think Izuka is a very talented person and has done well for the series in terms of reception but there are some moments where he can come across as a bit paranoid.
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Old 09-21-2017, 05:33 PM   #492
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Honestly didn't expect to see Shadow playable again. Not sure why they're doing it, given they've let the character lie for a decade now, but eh.

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I don't necessarily need an Adventure 3 but I'd be more than content with a return to that gameplay style.
I wouldn't. I don't even understand the desire to go back in time to those days. They were fine at the time and I still like Adventure 1, warts and all, but they were glitchy, buggy messes with camera and control issues out the ass. If they made an Adventure 3, they'd have to do so much fixing it would feel different anyway. As for the gameplay, I'm not sure what people even think is missing that those games had. The different characters? That I could understand. Otherwise I think it's mainly nostalgia.

I mean, you bring up "comfortable controls" in the later post and... I dunno man, the controls seemed to just do whatever the hell they wanted sometimes.

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...and why are Sonic Team abandoning the newest play style from Lost World in Sonic Forces in favor of a play style introduced 9 years ago?
Because Lost World only got okay reviews and Big Red Buttons Sonic Boom game got people making Sonic jokes and trashing the series again after a couple years of that dying down a bit, so they got paranoid and went back to what worked and helped put some shine back on the franchise.

It's a shame, because while Lost World wasn't a perfect game by any means, a sequel in that playstyle could easily have focused on what worked and refined it.

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or worse, rush off a cliff, whereas with the Adventure games (at least SA2, which Heroes did as well) the character will stop himself if he/she hits an edge.
I don't remember any of that at all. Most of what I remember of Adventure 2 consists of getting pissed off at the last third of the game because the levels were mainly bottomless pits, half the time with nothing but rails over them you had to grind on. I went sailing off into nothing a couple times in the action stages too.

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Fan have shown that it can work with ShayMays brilliant outline for a Sonic game and proof of concepts like Sonic Utopia and Green Hill Paradise Act 2 prove that it can work.
I've seen those before. Very SRB2, but without the Doom ass graphics and limitations. Super impressive, especially for hobby stuff.

But they also illustrate, even just through watching, why that sort of open plains gameplay has issues to work out and isn't that simple. Sonic's generally agreed to require some sense of speed, so to compensate, the levels need to be bigger. For the more directed main games, that's not a huge issue, just make them longer. This sort of thing, you expand outward and those demos illustrate the problem with that. There's nothing going on. Enemies are sparse, there aren't any gimmicks and the usual stuff like loops seem goofily out of place because there's no reason to go through them, since you can just go around or avoid them. The enemies and the gimmicks you can say would be worked out by adding more, but then you're just filling large spaces with things, with no guarantee you can keep it interesting. You can mix it up, but depending on the stage you'd need a lot of unique stuff to keep areas that wide interesting. Eventually, just running around nothing areas is going to get boring.

It's cool as a sandbox and a demo, but a full game of stuff like that probably isn't going to work without scaling back or putting gargantuan effort into populating entire open stages like that with interesting things to do. Sonic Robo Blast 2 is a bit more closed in and directed and even that has issues like that sometimes.
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Old 09-21-2017, 06:07 PM   #493
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They're desperate ...



They're really desperate...

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...96/201/ed3.jpg
Im excited to finally be able to play as Shadow on the 2D levels.
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Old 09-21-2017, 06:24 PM   #494
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They were fine at the time and I still like Adventure 1, warts and all, but they were glitchy, buggy messes with camera and control issues out the ass.
Then why not improve on those problems? You can create sequels and improve on the flaws of the last games. There's still potential for that style of gameplay, imo.

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If they made an Adventure 3, they'd have to do so much fixing it would feel different anyway.
The issue isn't that Sega isn't making an Adventure 3, it's that Sonic Team is ignoring the good aspects of what many have liked of those games. While flawed, they have some unique choices to them that even the modern games don't have.

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I mean, you bring up "comfortable controls" in the later post and... I dunno man, the controls seemed to just do whatever the hell they wanted sometimes.
Let me ask this, do you ever feel like you have more control over Sonic in a modern game compared to SA game?

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I don't remember any of that at all. Most of what I remember of Adventure 2 consists of getting pissed off at the last third of the game because the levels were mainly bottomless pits, half the time with nothing but rails over them you had to grind on. I went sailing off into nothing a couple times in the action stages too.
It's not impossible to fall off a platform but what I'm saying is that when hitting an edge, the character will stop him/herself from falling off in an animation. And while I agree on stages like Final Rush, that's not exactly what I'm talking about.
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Old 09-21-2017, 07:22 PM   #495
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Then why not improve on those problems? You can create sequels and improve on the flaws of the last games. There's still potential for that style of gameplay, imo.
Like I said, they'd have to improve the controls drastically as well as the camera issues, after a certain point it's not going to feel the same. You can make a good point that they should open up more control of Sonic, but going back to Adventure isn't what I'd call a solution. If they're going to refine a playstyle, I'd rather they return to the Lost World style and refine that than dredge something up from the days of early 3D gaming and try to make it work in the modern day.

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The issue isn't that Sega isn't making an Adventure 3, it's that Sonic Team is ignoring the good aspects of what many have liked of those games. While flawed, they have some unique choices to them that even the modern games don't have.
They had more characters and playstyles, which is something I wouldn't mind returning (if, you know, they could do it competently, which is always a crapshoot). Otherwise, I'm not sure what was lost that was worth keeping. The action stages were just as directed, just slower and maybe a bit more complex. You had a bit more control over directly turning Sonic, but even that didn't work great. Wall running in Adventure is a nightmare. If you could even keep the necessary speed up, sometimes he turned too fast and you turned into the other direction, or he detached from the wall and plummeted. The volcano level of Adventure is infuriating because of that.

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Let me ask this, do you ever feel like you have more control over Sonic in a modern game compared to SA game?
Yes, I do. I've never had an occasion where I hold forward and when the camera angle changes Sonic immediately turns right into a wall because question mark. Sometimes, playing Adventure is like wrestling the controls.

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It's not impossible to fall off a platform but what I'm saying is that when hitting an edge, the character will stop him/herself from falling off in an animation. And while I agree on stages like Final Rush, that's not exactly what I'm talking about.
I genuinely don't remember what you're talking about. I remember fences and the like that might keep you from going over unless you jump, but I also remember plenty of occasions where nothing stopped me from sailing off to my death. If anything, those games could have used more invisible walls. Green Forest sometimes had me sailing off into the abyss because I ran on the side and turned too much, breaking contact with the floor, going through the missing section of root/branch and off into the wild green yonder. It's been a long time since I've played Adventure 2, but I still remember stuff like that clearly.
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Old 09-21-2017, 08:07 PM   #496
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But they also illustrate, even just through watching, why that sort of open plains gameplay has issues to work out and isn't that simple. Sonic's generally agreed to require some sense of speed, so to compensate, the levels need to be bigger. For the more directed main games, that's not a huge issue, just make them longer. This sort of thing, you expand outward and those demos illustrate the problem with that. There's nothing going on. Enemies are sparse, there aren't any gimmicks and the usual stuff like loops seem goofily out of place because there's no reason to go through them, since you can just go around or avoid them. The enemies and the gimmicks you can say would be worked out by adding more, but then you're just filling large spaces with things, with no guarantee you can keep it interesting. You can mix it up, but depending on the stage you'd need a lot of unique stuff to keep areas that wide interesting. Eventually, just running around nothing areas is going to get boring.
The thing about those proof of concepts is just that: they're proof of concepts. The level design isn't important because it's about demonstrating how Sonic can control in 3D space. Naturally if a proper level was made it would be much less wide open. Even Sonic Utopia's creator acknowledged this in the comments.
Quote:
"The level is too open/flat/there's nothing to do."
This is essentially a tech demo, and the level is experimental. Proper levels will have much better design and the actual game will have objectives.

For the record, this is NOT an "open world" Sonic game. I have never used those words to describe it. Everyone else is calling it that. Open world implies any direction is a valid goal wherever you are with different objectives. Even this demo has a single end goal, the level just happens to be large. The full game will have roomy, explorable levels, but it will still primarily be start to finish gameplay like the classic 2d Sonic games. And while this is my concept and I'm leading the project, it is far from "made by one guy". This demo is largely the work of two, and the full game will have more involved in the effort.
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Old 09-21-2017, 11:01 PM   #497
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Like I said, they'd have to improve the controls drastically as well as the camera issues, after a certain point it's not going to feel the same. You can make a good point that they should open up more control of Sonic, but going back to Adventure isn't what I'd call a solution. If they're going to refine a playstyle, I'd rather they return to the Lost World style and refine that than dredge something up from the days of early 3D gaming and try to make it work in the modern day.
Sadly, they're not going to go back to Lost World because of the mixed reception.

I never had a problem with any of the issues you had with SA1 (SA2 depends) but not everybody's gonna feel the same. *shrugs*
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Old 09-22-2017, 12:23 AM   #498
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The thing about those proof of concepts is just that: they're proof of concepts. The level design isn't important because it's about demonstrating how Sonic can control in 3D space. Naturally if a proper level was made it would be much less wide open. Even Sonic Utopia's creator acknowledged this in the comments.
You know what? Fair enough. We'll see how it goes, then. If this is just the proof of concept - and I didn't realize that was all it was - they we don't know what their eye for level design is, and that's important, especially in making this work. But we're not likely to see anything concrete for a few years, assuming it doesn't fall apart. Fan games take a long time in general, I notice, unless you're the superhuman guy who made Before the Sequel, After the Sequel and Chrono Adventure. 3D fan games take even more effort and time, which is why we've never seen one get super far, aside from SBR2.

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Sadly, they're not going to go back to Lost World because of the mixed reception.

I never had a problem with any of the issues you had with SA1 (SA2 depends) but not everybody's gonna feel the same. *shrugs*
Sigh. Yeah. We might not. It's a shame. Who knows, though. Maybe they'll return to it at some point, but there's a good chance they won't, too.

True enough. I think of that one sequence in the volcano when I illustrate that issue. There's a big pool of lava and to get across it, you have to do a wall run. But, as I recall, it's a strip of wall you can run on and if you hit the edges, it breaks the run and you just drop into the lava. I always remember getting annoyed at that, because it was pretty easy to hit the edges.

I think the most annoying glitch I ever had was Emerald Coast, where, sometimes, without warning, I'd go into that huge loop that rockets you over the water to the next section and just clip through the floor to my death. I had one playthrough where that happened three times before I got through. I never understood why it happened or what caused it.

I wonder if porting ever caused any issues with the re-releases. I never played it on the Dreamcast, so I don't know if the original version had all the same bugs or technical glitches.

... The way I complain about it, you'd think I hated Sonic Adventure rather than like it. Honestly, though, I do. It's still fun when it works right.
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Old 09-22-2017, 02:21 AM   #499
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I wonder if porting ever caused any issues with the re-releases. I never played it on the Dreamcast, so I don't know if the original version had all the same bugs or technical glitches.
Yeah, it's well known by Adventure fans that every port of Sonic Adventure "DX" suffers from many glitches, especially collision issues, that weren't in the original. Even it's unique lighting engine has been removed starting with the Gamecube release resulting in much of the color and atmosphere of the game being lost and all the character models looking like shiny action figures. Thankfully there are mods available that fix most of these glitches and mods that port the original lighting engine and character models so it looks and plays just like the Dreamcast original. Just look at this invisible wall that was seemingly removed for no reason.


Sonic Adventure 2 for the PC/Xbox/Playstation also has much of the same problems especially in the audio department. Sonic Adventure 2 Battle on the Gamecube is acually a solid port and in many ways plays better then the Dreamcast version. However the lighting engine is also absent on all ports of SA2 and this results in a lot of visual effects being missing. Sadly there aren't any awesome mods yet to fix these problems yet.

Compare this cutscene from the Dreamcast version with the PC port.
Dreamcast:https://youtu.be/mJcClMWtFp0?t=7m35s
PC: https://youtu.be/ggYE5V9Vum0?t=5m30s

Yeah...Sega hasn't treated these games very well have they?
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Old 09-22-2017, 08:45 PM   #500
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It's just ... MASSIVE cringe, man ...


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