What Do You Think a Pure Eastman and Laird Mirage TMNT Would Have Been Like?

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

We've touched on this in other "What if" threads about if things happened differently in TMNT history, but we've never really explored this aspect.

It's well known that the first 15 issues (counting the Micro-series) were almost entirely written and drawn by Eastman and Laird themselves (with Steve Lavigne's letters and cover colors, of course). But once the cartoon and toys took off, the co-creators were busy with the licensing end of things and added on a bunch of additional artists and writers to the team (not to mention two years of "guest artists" which is a whole other bag of worms).

These Mirage staffers have made many contributions to Mirage TMNT. They've added many iconic characters and storylines to the mythos (If I'm not mistaken the Rat King is Jim Lawson's creation, for example). At this point, these staffers have likely wrote and drew more of the series than it's creators. It's almost as much "Lawson and Murphy's TMNT (not to mention Dooney, Berger, Brown, Bissette, etc)" as it is "Eastman and Laird's TMNT".

Now let's imagine a world where it's not like that. Let's imagine if for whatever reason, (they said "no" to the deal, the cartoon flopped, they just let the cartoon and merchandise govern themselves while concentrating on the comic, it doesn't matter) Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird stuck to writing and drawing the original TMNT comic (with Lavigne's letters and colors).

How do you think it would be different? Would it have a more consistent continuity? Would we be missing out on iconic stories and characters, or have many new ones? Would "City at War" still happen, or would it even happen sooner?

What do you think?

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Do you mean the original animated series ran for circa two seasons before being cancelled, nor not at all?

I get confused when you first say Kevin Eastman and Peter Larid said no, then you said the series would still run.

[Powder]

All I know is, the "guest" artists & other in-house Mirage talent shaped the series to an invaluable extent. So I wouldn't have it any other way.

A big part of its appeal is the grim poignancy, largely owed to folks like Murph & Lawson. Dunno that we'd have had that without them.

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

Do you mean the original animated series ran for circa two seasons before being cancelled, nor not at all?

I get confused when you first say Kevin Eastman and Peter Larid said no, then you said the series would still run.

I just meant that it didn't matter. For whatever the reason, in this scenario, Eastman and Laird didn't get distracted by the licensing end of things and kept doing the comic together. The cartoon (and movies, toys etc.) not getting made, or the cartoon (and movies, toys etc.) getting made, but E&L not bothering with it much would just be two separate possibilities as to why.

Originally Posted by Powder

All I know is, the "guest" artists & other in-house Mirage talent shaped the series to an invaluable extent. So I wouldn't have it any other way.

A big part of its appeal is the grim poignancy, largely owed to folks like Murph & Lawson. Dunno that we'd have had that without them.

I largely agree, but it's interesting to think about how far the original two creators would have taken things.

Originally Posted by funatic

Lawson is credited on the script for City at War and I get the sense that he was much more involved with that story than Eastman was, maybe even more involved than Laird.

If the extended Mirage family never formed I imagine we'd still get a Return to New York though in some fashion. Maybe a little sooner, or maybe a similar number of issues would fill the space of the early guest artists, but now penned by E&L, possibly with a bit more collaboration than those that followed #11.

I have a feeling Return to New York would be their fitting swan song to the property when they'd probably be interested in working on other solo projects since the cash wouldn't be flowing in forever on TMNT without the cartoon.

Sounds plausible.

[AquaParade]

It’s a super interesting question but any prediction is just another example of what wouldn’t have happened. Fancy way of saying there’s no way to know.

I’m glad Volume 1 turned out the way it did. From the first issue, to Sons of The Silent Age, all the way to City at War, it has a little bit of everything and most of it is great stuff.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Tetsu Deinonychus

Jim Lawson's creation

Yes, it is:

http://www.miragelicensing.com/comic...les/04/04.html

He even drew his Archie debut

http://miragelicensing.com/comics/archie/11/11.htm

[CyberCubed]

Judging by all of Eastman's short one-shots and back-ups, his TMNT stories would have mostly considered them facing random street punks, gangs, or organized crime. Which is fine, but I don't think he had any long running arc planned, his TMNT was most episodic "one and done" stuff.

[funatic]

Originally Posted by Tetsu Deinonychus

Would "City at War" still happen, or would it even happen sooner?

Lawson is credited on the script for City at War and I get the sense that he was much more involved with that story than Eastman was, maybe even more involved than Laird.

If the extended Mirage family never formed I imagine we'd still get a Return to New York though in some fashion. Maybe a little sooner, or maybe a similar number of issues would fill the space of the early guest artists, but now penned by E&L, possibly with a bit more collaboration than those that followed #11.

I have a feeling Return to New York would be their fitting swan song to the property when they'd probably be interested in working on other solo projects since the cash wouldn't be flowing in forever on TMNT without the cartoon.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by funatic

Lawson is credited on the script for City at War and I get the sense that he was much more involved with that story than Eastman was, maybe even more involved than Laird.

Eastman does seem fairly detached from CaW whenever we spoke about it years back. Like, eerily.

If the extended Mirage family never formed I imagine we'd still get a Return to New York though in some fashion. Maybe a little sooner, or maybe a similar number of issues would fill the space of the early guest artists, but now penned by E&L, possibly with a bit more collaboration than those that followed #11.

I have a feeling Return to New York would be their fitting swan song to the property when they'd probably be interested in working on other solo projects since the cash wouldn't be flowing in forever on TMNT without the cartoon.

We don't know that. We know that not nearly as much money would have flown in, though who's to say what other, different, perhaps even better "deals" could have awaited K&P down the line if they'd held out a little longer. It's pretty stupid and shortsighted to believe that the SURGE/Playmates/Fred Wolf deal -- pretty much the first one that landed on their laps -- was the only deal that could ever have been profitable, or the only road that would lead to the TMNT being a phenomenon.

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Eastman does seem fairly detached from CaW whenever we spoke about it years back. Like, eerily.

Considering that CaW is often hailed as E&L's triumphant return to their creation, it's interesting to think that it might actually be more of a Jim Lawson story, or even a Laird/Lawson story.

It should be noted that Eastman recalls #50 as him and Laird trying to recapture the early days only to discover how far they had drifted apart, which would likely give it a somber emotional association to him. Of course, that fits the content and themes of the story pretty well too. So, it likely wouldn't have been the same without the behind the scenes context.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

We don't know that. We know that not nearly as much money would have flown in, though who's to say what other, different, perhaps even better "deals" could have awaited K&P down the line if they'd held out a little longer. It's pretty stupid and shortsighted to believe that the SURGE/Playmates/Fred Wolf deal -- pretty much the first one that landed on their laps -- was the only deal that could ever have been profitable, or the only road that would lead to the TMNT being a phenomenon.

I agree with you, but I think we're in the minority. People forget that the only reason the SURGE/Playmates/Fred Wolf deal happened in the first place was because Mirage itself was a surprise success.

That said, who's to say how long they would have kept interest in doing TMNT before wanting to move on to doing other comics? Eastman has mentioned in interviews wanting to do other projects, and being more of an "Underground Comics" kinda guy, where they tend to stick to shorts and one-shots.

Originally Posted by AquaParade

It’s a super interesting question but any prediction is just another example of what wouldn’t have happened. Fancy way of saying there’s no way to know.

I’m glad Volume 1 turned out the way it did. From the first issue, to Sons of The Silent Age, all the way to City at War, it has a little bit of everything and most of it is great stuff.

Horribly messy continuity aside, I like Volume 1 the way it is too. It's TMNT at it's most classic. But, it's weird to think that Staffers and guest artists probably contributed more to it than it's original two creators.

And, yes. Everything we say here is just blind speculation, and random guessing. Nothing in these "what if" threads is conclusive. But, it's food for thought and for discussion. And, it gives us something interesting to talk about on this site besides the same old topics.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Tetsu Deinonychus

Considering that CaW is often hailed as E&L's triumphant return to their creation, it's interesting to think that it might actually be more of a Jim Lawson story, or even a Laird/Lawson story.

It should be noted that Eastman recalls #50 as him and Laird trying to recapture the early days only to discover how far they had drifted apart, which would likely give it a somber emotional association to him. Of course, that fits the content and themes of the story pretty well too. So, it likely wouldn't have been the same without the behind the scenes context.

To extrapolate what I know against how we know Laird worked with Jim in Vol. 2 and 4... I think that #50 was the big, "OK, we're back together... for one issue." But I'm not certain Kevin was 100% on board, and I don't think he contributed much to #51-62 beyond moral support and maybe some layouts for the action stuff. If he contributed anything creatively to #51-62, it was most likely confined to whatever original brainstorming conversations were had when "City at War" was conceptualized. Laird probably wrote the plots out for #51-62 and left Lawson to do the actual scripting (I've been told that's how they worked on Vol. 2 and 4... Laird writes plots, Lawson draws and writes in dialogue and blurbs, then Laird comes back with any final changes/additions).

As far as Eastman was concerned, #50 was probably the curtain call to him.

I agree with you, but I think we're in the minority. People forget that the only reason the SURGE/Playmates/Fred Wolf deal happened in the first place was because Mirage itself was a surprise success.

That said, who's to say how long they would have kept interest in doing TMNT before wanting to move on to doing other comics? Eastman has mentioned in interviews wanting to do other projects, and being more of an "Underground Comics" kinda guy, where they tend to stick to shorts and one-shots.

Hard to say. It might be like George Lucas when he said he can't wait to leave Star Wars behind so he can work on all of those indie movies.

Horribly messy continuity aside, I like Volume 1 the way it is too. It's TMNT at it's most classic. But, it's weird to think that Staffers and guest artists probably contributed more to it than it's original two creators.

There's a couple of tiny spots in Vol. 1 I'd have... tightened up... but it's a hell of a volume.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Eastman does seem fairly detached from CaW whenever we spoke about it years back. Like, eerily.

Yeah, if you look at the (otherwise detailed) credits in the Ultimate Collection, he's never credited for anything other than co-writing "story" with Peter when it comes to CAW. The actual script credit goes to Peter and Jim.

In fact, come to think of it, the only times he's not sharing credit with anyone in IDW's reprints is #14, Complete Carnage and Radical, 49th Street Stompers, Night Life, You had to be there, Crazy Man, Fun with guns and Bottoming out. Most of these are short stories.

I don't intend to throw dirt at Kevin but judging from his lack of clear credit, as well as his own style compared to those of the other Mirage stuff, I kind of suspect he didn't do that much even when it was just him and Peter.

[DrSpengler]

To jump in on all this talk about Eastman's direct contributions to CaW, can anyone with the Ultimate Collections confirm that Eastman referred to Karai as Shredder's daughter in the annotations? I dunno if that's true or not, but if it is, it would certainly lend credence to the idea that he wasn't very invested in that narrative if he got something like that wrong.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

To jump in on all this talk about Eastman's direct contributions to CaW, can anyone with the Ultimate Collections confirm that Eastman referred to Karai as Shredder's daughter in the annotations? I dunno if that's true or not, but if it is, it would certainly lend credence to the idea that he wasn't very invested in that narrative if he got something like that wrong.

I do remember reading that on my last readthrough... I'll have to check again...

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

To jump in on all this talk about Eastman's direct contributions to CaW, can anyone with the Ultimate Collections confirm that Eastman referred to Karai as Shredder's daughter in the annotations? I dunno if that's true or not, but if it is, it would certainly lend credence to the idea that he wasn't very invested in that narrative if he got something like that wrong.

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=45775