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Old 01-17-2019, 10:19 PM   #81
Leo656
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Eh, I used to really like the Spider-Man comics as a kid. Both Raimi's series and the "Amazing" films had their ups and downs, to me, but it always felt true to its source material in most of the really important ways. I recognized the spirit of the material even when things took a detour away from how they were in the comics.

The new ones seem like they've decided that the only things to keep are, he's in high school and he's quippy. I'd argue that Point 1 isn't even the least bit important, since 90% of all Spider-Man stories ever told are way post-graduation. It feels like they're afraid kids won't like Spider-Man unless he's a kid himself. And why is Aunt May a Supermodel?

Eh, not feeling these. Plus, the guy looks like he's 12 and it greatly annoys me.
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Old 01-17-2019, 10:31 PM   #82
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Something felt off about Homecoming to me. I dug it mostly but... the "love story" wasn't much of a love story at all, and I thought that was an important component of the Raimi films.

And like, where's MJ -- the real MJ? Or Gwen Stacy? Are they saving them for, like, Spider-Man 4 or 5 or something? Just seems weird.
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Old 01-17-2019, 10:45 PM   #83
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It's extremely clear that Zendaya as "M.J." is the closest thing we're going to get. C'mon guy.

Gwen Stacy may as well be a literal Nazi, to the current social standards, what with her blonde hair and blue eyes. Casting someone like her in such a prominent role opposite another white actor is practically illegal in 2019. People on HuffPo would riot.

As for Mary Jane, 1. Her name is slang for weed, and super-hero movies are for kids. 2. Supermodels are guilty of promoting "oppressive and unrealistic beauty standards", so we can't have that in 2019 either. 3. ALWAYS race-flip the redhead. That's not even a new rule; see "West, Wallace" and "O'Neil, April", among others.

Keep dreamin', buddy. But it's okay; it's "still MJ" in all the important ways!

....Which, to Sony (and probably Disney), means "She has a J and an M as initials, and that's about it."
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Old 01-18-2019, 02:55 AM   #84
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Supermodels are guilty of promoting "oppressive and unrealistic beauty standards", so we can't have that in 2019 either.
Would they necessarily still have to be on the model kick? MJ's been many things in the comics...in the newspaper strip she's a theatre and screen actress, in Renew Your Vows she's a superhero mom and runs a fashion line and blog, in the post-OMD world she briefly worked for Tony Stark etc.
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Old 01-18-2019, 03:33 AM   #85
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In theory. But keep in mind, I never read any of those stories so her being a model is my only point of reference.

I always kind of enjoyed her longform character arc in the comics, evolving from vapid party-girl who's incredibly out of his league to more of an equal partner and fully-formed person whose been changed into a better person through her experiences after meeting Peter. I kinda feel like if you make her too awesome right away, you lose some of her arc.

I mean, you could just as easily substitute "actress" for "model" and tell the same stories I guess, but most actresses also model anyway, so that's just kinda splitting hairs.

But yeah I never heard about any of that other stuff. I think I jumped off in 1993.
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Old 01-18-2019, 07:12 AM   #86
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But yeah I never heard about any of that other stuff. I think I jumped off in 1993.
Right around Peter's parents being robots and the Clone Saga? Yeah, so did about half the world's population.
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Old 01-18-2019, 09:11 AM   #87
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The Clone Saga was a disaster that many Spidey fans would rather forget about.
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Bringing back Norman Osborn from the dead was also lame, considering that Petey didn't really have a shortage of bad guys to trade punches with.
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Old 01-18-2019, 04:36 PM   #88
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Right around Peter's parents being robots and the Clone Saga? Yeah, so did about half the world's population.
I have read every Amazing title issue up to #389. We learn that Harry before he "died" set up Peter's parents only for him to lose them again after he reveals his identity to them. As soon as that story is over its all about the Clone Saga and even as great as the marriage to MJ is I cant be a regular reader after the first 31 years.

CBR has a great infrequent series where Brian Cornin chronicles Mary Jane Watson Parker's evolution as a character.
https://www.cbr.com/tag/if-her-hair-was-still-red/
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Old 01-18-2019, 04:37 PM   #89
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Right around Peter's parents being robots and the Clone Saga? Yeah, so did about half the world's population.
Yep, right after his parents showed up, shortly after Maximum Carnage I think? That's when I jumped off. I was only reading what my Dad bought, as far as those books go; I only ever bought DC stuff, but I'd look at his Spider-Man books too. When he stopped buying them that's where I stopped following it.
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Old 01-18-2019, 06:37 PM   #90
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Man you missed some of M-J's (and Peter's) best years. 2001-2007 (aka JMS's run) were some great years for character development for both, imo. She branched out into theater and serious film acting (after years of being cast as hot-babe in distress in cheesy B movies) as well as encouraving Peter in his teaching career and even learning to help him in her own way. (She took down Man-Wolf with a fireplace poker at one point! And helped rescue several fellow actors and her director from Swarm.) And yes, there is the post-BND stuff about working for Stark. She has become a much more nuanced character in last two decades, mostly due to JMS attempting to make her a bigger part of Peter's life. (Until the unmarriage mandate from Quesada, that is....)
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Old 01-18-2019, 07:28 PM   #91
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I misspoke. I actually picked up all of "The Other" storyline, when that was the thing everyone was talking about. I dug the covers with all the variant outfits, so I was intrigued enough to take a look.

The covers were the best part. The story, I thought was dumb. Haven't picked one up since.

Spider-Man's life sucks, and it's exhausting to read. The character, I like fine, but at some point it was apparently decreed that happiness isn't part of the game plan for Peter Parker, and I'm not too interested in following that. Batman's bad enough, with that.
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Old 01-18-2019, 07:36 PM   #92
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That story was very much the culmination of a much larger narrative, and makes little sense out of context of that larger story. Like, it had a LOT to do with Morlun, Ezekiel, the Spider totem stuff, and Peter's past/future. There was a LOT that was packed into that arc that was seeded throughout the entire run previously. I actually enjoyed it for how huge the story really was, and the impact it had on him and his world. And that ending.... (He ATE Morlun's HEAD?!! )
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Old 01-18-2019, 08:51 PM   #93
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Understood, but even allowing for all of that, it very much wasn't for me. By the time I got to the part where Giant Spider Peter died giving birth to Human Peter, a voice inside my head was saying, "This is another one of those stories that no future writer is ever going to reference again, simply because it's far too convoluted and ridiculous, and impossible to explain to anyone who hasn't read it." I don't know if they ever actually did reference it, but that's what my gut was saying.

Since the ultimate point of it just seemed to be, "How can we give him organic Web Shooters like the Raimi movies?", anyways... CLEARLY they could have found a better way than that, no? Or better yet, not bothered, since most people didn't like organic webs anyways? Seemed like a lot of bad (or at least overcomplicated) story for a really pointless payoff. There's always the possibility that I may have liked it more in full context, but I strongly doubt I would have felt dramatically differently, because I'm actually being super polite about how the ending made me feel.

I'm generally fine with sprawling, "epic" stories, but a lot of my enjoyment hangs on what it was all building to. That story, to me, ended with a popcorn fart. On the other hand, one of the last Spider-Man stories I read before jumping off was "Maximum Carnage", which I would not cite as "good", but I had a lot more fun reading it and when it was over I wasn't physically angry at it.

Plus, that video game? Straight-up ballin'! That was my jam on SNES, back in the day.
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Old 01-18-2019, 11:15 PM   #94
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My biggest problem with Homecoming was the comic book supporting cast either were not present or not as they are supposed to look due to a need for diversity in the cast. I don't know if I am wrong for wanting Mary Jane present as a Caucasian redhead, Betty Brant to have short brown hair, Ned Leeds not to really be friends with Peter but a blonde colleague. I like to see the characters as they are in the comics to be presented that way on screen.
The characters on screen were presented on screen like they were in the comics...Miles Morales's comics.

They took a few things from then current Peter Parker comics but the majority of Peter's world was basically ported over from Miles Morales: Ultimate Spider-Man. I suppose I should be upset that they took Miles Morales story and made it Peter Parker's but things worked out, Miles has a hit movie of his own now and Miles will almost assuredly get a live action version probably in the MCU.

That being said I wonder how they will handle Miles's world since they already gave it to Peter. Will Spider-Man having a Korean best friend/confidante that loves lego be a constant for every Spider-Man now?

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Eh, I used to really like the Spider-Man comics as a kid. Both Raimi's series and the "Amazing" films had their ups and downs, to me, but it always felt true to its source material in most of the really important ways. I recognized the spirit of the material even when things took a detour away from how they were in the comics.

The new ones seem like they've decided that the only things to keep are, he's in high school and he's quippy. I'd argue that Point 1 isn't even the least bit important, since 90% of all Spider-Man stories ever told are way post-graduation. It feels like they're afraid kids won't like Spider-Man unless he's a kid himself. And why is Aunt May a Supermodel?

Eh, not feeling these. Plus, the guy looks like he's 12 and it greatly annoys me.
As long as I've been reading Spider-Man there's always been attempt to try and make him appear ever young hence why he always seems to re-enroll in college which he has again recently. The fact that he was a teenage superhero was a big of the characters initial appeal, sure, he's moved beyond that but there's nothing wrong with going back to that. Both previous movie series fast tracked the high school parts. Also nothing wrong with an actor playing a teenager actually looking like one.

I should point out that none of the Spider-Man movies have 100% nailed the character for me but Homecoming but still felt enough like Spider-Man to me, certainly moreso than Amazing Spider-Man ever did but I suppose that depends on what aspects of the Spider-Man mythos you think are essential to the character. For me what the MCU Spider-Man lacks is the tragic lesson of responsibility (Amazing Spider-Man didn't properly do it either) but blame all the people who moaned incessantly about not rehashing the origin again or overly relying on classic stories.

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It's extremely clear that Zendaya as "M.J." is the closest thing we're going to get. C'mon guy.
To be honest the vast majority of people don't know one Spider-Man love interest from another. Mary Jane is probably the most well known but still she's one of many.

I think the Homecoming guys played the whole MJ thing by ear. I think they wanted Zendaya to play Mary Jane but didn't know how people would react so they made it ambiguous. If it didn't work out then they could brush it off that she's just a friend and possibly introduce the "real" Mary Jane or other love interest at some point but when it turned out that the vast majority of the audience didn't lose their **** that that the implied definitive romance for MCU Peter would be mixed race it looks like they are running with it.

No one seemed to care when Nolan mixed up several different Batman love interests to make the quasi original character Rachel Dawes. It's not a big deal for people.

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Gwen Stacy may as well be a literal Nazi, to the current social standards, what with her blonde hair and blue eyes. Casting someone like her in such a prominent role opposite another white actor is practically illegal in 2019. People on HuffPo would riot.
Bull****

They used Gwen as the love interest in the Amazing Spider-Man only a handful of years ago and a different version of Gwen had a prominent role in Spider-Verse and they're talking of a spin off for her.

The reason we wont see Gwen is that the character is uninteresting. The only interesting thing about her is she died. That's one of the main flaws with the Amazing movie series; both comic book fans and anyone who ever clicked on article about that movie series knew how important Gwen Stacy dying is to the Spider-Man mythos. It made the whole thing kinda boring when you're just waiting for the moment she is killed.

This was all the worse since Emma Stone's interpretation was pretty good. So much so that Marvel tried to retroactively make the comic Gwen more like the movie version via flashback stories and then it was the basis for Spider-Gwen's initial characterization.

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As for Mary Jane, 1. Her name is slang for weed, and super-hero movies are for kids. 2. Supermodels are guilty of promoting "oppressive and unrealistic beauty standards", so we can't have that in 2019 either. 3. ALWAYS race-flip the redhead. That's not even a new rule; see "West, Wallace" and "O'Neil, April", among others.

Keep dreamin', buddy. But it's okay; it's "still MJ" in all the important ways!

....Which, to Sony (and probably Disney), means "She has a J and an M as initials, and that's about it."
None of this makes any sense.

If Hollywood is apparently so scared of using the "real" Mary Jane because her nickname is ubiquitous slang term for marijuana then why on earth have they set up a situation where the new version can't be called anything other than said nickname?

Also Zendaya is still way out of Peter's league looks wise. Hollywood is built on unrealistic beauty standards that has not changed and probably never will. Even ugly characters still have to look sexy underneath.

Also if race bending is pervasive on media why the **** did we have to deal with the Eric Sacks bull****?

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Understood, but even allowing for all of that, it very much wasn't for me. By the time I got to the part where Giant Spider Peter died giving birth to Human Peter, a voice inside my head was saying, "This is another one of those stories that no future writer is ever going to reference again, simply because it's far too convoluted and ridiculous, and impossible to explain to anyone who hasn't read it." I don't know if they ever actually did reference it, but that's what my gut was saying.

Since the ultimate point of it just seemed to be, "How can we give him organic Web Shooters like the Raimi movies?", anyways... CLEARLY they could have found a better way than that, no? Or better yet, not bothered, since most people didn't like organic webs anyways? Seemed like a lot of bad (or at least overcomplicated) story for a really pointless payoff. There's always the possibility that I may have liked it more in full context, but I strongly doubt I would have felt dramatically differently, because I'm actually being super polite about how the ending made me feel.

I'm generally fine with sprawling, "epic" stories, but a lot of my enjoyment hangs on what it was all building to. That story, to me, ended with a popcorn fart. On the other hand, one of the last Spider-Man stories I read before jumping off was "Maximum Carnage", which I would not cite as "good", but I had a lot more fun reading it and when it was over I wasn't physically angry at it.
I don't think you could have picked a worse story to sample JMS Spider-Man.

Most people including myself to rate his first few years on the book paired with John Romita Jr. Their over arcing story ended with a purposefully ambiguous note; was Spider-Man actually a fated totem for some Spider God or was the whole thing an elaborate plan to fool him into believing that...it made more sense in the book and had good character work in between the bigger stories honest.

The Other was basically editorially mandated as a sequel given how well received the original Morun arc was and how well it sold. Of course the whole thing completely undermines the ending of his earlier story and I don't think anyone's heart was in it. Even using the story as a means to give him organic web shooters was a bitch since most writers just forgot about that and had him using mechanical ones pretty sharpish.

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Old 01-18-2019, 11:35 PM   #95
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I'm always a little bit surprised at when it is or isn't obvious to people when I'm absolutely serious versus when I'm (mostly) being a smartass. I'm not going to reveal which blocks of quoted text were which, but I'm sure that astute observers can figure it out. First prize gets one of those off-brand 25-cent bags of chips they sell at the pizza place. Y'know, the bags with like three solid chips and a bunch of crumbs that are way past stale, and you can only find them at that ONE specific pizza place? But they smell AMAZING and are thus a mandatory part of the entire "pizza place Experience"? The ones they for some reason keep hanging on the wall on a chain of clips behind the counter so you have to explicitly demean yourself by asking the guy, "Yeah, lemme get a bag of them sh*tty chips, too"?

First one to determine which of the above quotes are serious in nature and which ones are "Oh, YOU!" gets ONE (1) bag of those. My gift, from me to you.
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As for JMS, I'unno. As I recall, his He-Man episodes were hit-or-miss with me as well. And I care way more about He-Man than I do about Spider-Man. I think he's just a mixed bag in general. Not a huge fan, not a hater. Just "eh".

Actually, come to think of it, his Superman run was extremely underwhelming, too. Maybe I just don't like him in general and he just occasionally manages to impress me. That's what I'm starting to think.
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Old 01-18-2019, 11:42 PM   #96
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I'm always a little bit surprised at when it is or isn't obvious to people when I'm absolutely serious versus when I'm (mostly) being a smartass. I'm not going to reveal which blocks of quoted text were which, but I'm sure that astute observers can figure it out. First prize gets one of those off-brand 25-cent bags of chips they sell at the pizza place. Y'know, the bags with like three solid chips and a bunch of crumbs that are way past stale, and you can only find them at that ONE specific pizza place? But they smell AMAZING and are thus a mandatory part of the entire "pizza place Experience"? The ones they for some reason keep hanging on the wall on a chain of clips behind the counter so you have to explicitly demean yourself by asking the guy, "Yeah, lemme get a bag of them sh*tty chips, too"?
Yeah I get that but tongue in cheek or not some things have become harder to pass by since a growing number of idiots started to make those arguments for 100% real.

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As for JMS, I'unno. As I recall, his He-Man episodes were hit-or-miss with me as well. And I care way more about He-Man than I do about Spider-Man. I think he's just a mixed bag in general. Not a huge fan, not a hater. Just "eh".

Actually, come to think of it, his Superman run was extremely underwhelming, too. Maybe I just don't like him in general and he just occasionally manages to impress me. That's what I'm starting to think.
If he's not your cup of tea fair enough although I'm with ya on Superman Grounded.
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Old 01-18-2019, 11:51 PM   #97
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Do I think those conversations actually happened behind closed doors? Yes, those are absolutely factors that studio executives place importance on in 2019, even if they didn't matter a few years ago. A lot has changed very quickly in recent years, and movie studio executives are very silly people.

Do I think that those conversations are 100% of the reason for the choices they've made? No, it's always a lot more complicated than that.

"Grounded" suuuuuuuucked.
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Old 01-19-2019, 12:08 AM   #98
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They used Gwen as the love interest in the Amazing Spider-Man only a handful of years ago and a different version of Gwen had a prominent role in Spider-Verse and they're talking of a spin off for her.
You missed the point entirely. The point being made was that end of 2018/2019 being white is demonized and diversity is heavily enforced, thus the powers that be want to avoid a white Peter Parker with a white Mary Jane. The Amazing Spider-Man movies were made before the SJW nonsense got to this point. And while Gwen is in Spider-Verse, her kinda/sorta but not really love interest is Miles, still avoiding a white couple.

IDK, while it is true that a lot of couples are mixed nowadays, there are still lots of good ol' fashioned same-race couples. Hollywood is currently hellbent on showing that 90% of couples are race-mixed when it's roughly 50/50 or 60/40 in real life.
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Old 01-19-2019, 12:38 AM   #99
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The diversity isn't the problem for me. Queens is the most racially diverse borough in New York City. It makes sense that Peter's classmates look like the New York of today and not the New York of 1962. The problem lies in the personality changes. Ned Leeds could have been Asian and still been Ned Leeds (SSM did this with Ned Lee), he didn't have to be Ganke. Flash Thompson could have been Latino and still been Eugune "Flash" Thompson: the Stark quarterback on the HS football team. Zendaya COULD have played Mary Jane Watson as she is in the comics and gave us the most faithful version to date. Zendaya basically Is real-life 616 MJ anyway -- they wasted that opportunity on Michelle. And instead of letting her be her own character with no ties to MJ, they are calling her MJ now. Thus blocking any possiblity that the real MJ will ever show in the MCU. Aunt May could be younger (as she is in Ultimate) but she doesn't have to be reduced to nothing but a punchline about being hot.

That's the problem. Not interracial couples or diversity
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Old 01-19-2019, 08:04 AM   #100
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I have read every Amazing title issue up to #389. We learn that Harry before he "died" set up Peter's parents only for him to lose them again after he reveals his identity to them. As soon as that story is over its all about the Clone Saga and even as great as the marriage to MJ is I cant be a regular reader after the first 31 years.

CBR has a great infrequent series where Brian Cornin chronicles Mary Jane Watson Parker's evolution as a character.
https://www.cbr.com/tag/if-her-hair-was-still-red/
I've read those articles, they're a great way of summarising MJ's life in easy steps.

Have you read 2009's Clone Saga mini-series? It kind of wraps up Peter's story while leaving it open ended, it's perfect for fans who only want to follow those first 31 years.

I don't consider anything past the Clone Saga as canon personally, I jumped on to Spider-Girl in 1998 and followed it through to it's final cancellation in 2010. That's also a pretty good epilogue to Spidey's life. It was almost ruined when Slott had him killed, but he was recently resurrected and became The Other last year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo656 View Post
Spider-Man's life sucks, and it's exhausting to read. The character, I like fine, but at some point it was apparently decreed that happiness isn't part of the game plan for Peter Parker, and I'm not too interested in following that. Batman's bad enough, with that.
If you follow the lead canon, yeah Peter's had it rough, but Marvel love throwing alternate versions a bone. The daily newspaper strip is probably the most consistently happy version of Peter out there...the only real drawback is he's an utterly useless hero who needs bailing out from either his wife or guest-heroes in every adventure...but at the same time you're glad Mary Jane is so upbeat and supportful of him, and there's refreshingly no real drama between them

Last edited by ZariusTwo; 01-19-2019 at 08:29 AM.
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