Strange choices

[PApagreg]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

I would agree with this. While avenging Splinter was part of their motivation. Their main motive for taking out the Shredder was had made himself into a threat that wouldn't be stopped with anything but death. All throughout the series, the Shredder has been given opportunities and outs where he could realize that everything he does only destroys his honor further. But he is too blinded by his anger and his hubris to see what he was really doing. The only time he really does question himself was when Leo yells. "You've become a monster, a demon! Was this your destiny?"

"

Again the problem is that you can say that for Shredder in pretty much any season and by the time the turtles found out that Saki had a hand in having the Earth sucked into a black hole should've been a clue that the guy is a mad dog who needs to be put down yesterday. Funny enough Leo was the only one who knew that but instead of taking down Shredder's empire we had to be lectured on why revenge is bad. We gets to me is that it took until the end of season 4 for the clan to take a preemative strike against Shredder it wasn't when Saki made an alliance with the Krang or when he hired Tiger Claw or when he turned Karai into a mind controlled Snake monster or when he badly hurt Leo or when he made New York into a Kraang warzone or when he flat out destroyed the world.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by PApagreg

Again the problem is that you can say that for Shredder in pretty much any season and by the time the turtles found out that Saki had a hand in having the Earth sucked into a black hole should've been a clue that the guy is a mad dog who needs to be put down yesterday. Funny enough Leo was the only one who knew that but instead of taking down Shredder's empire we had to be lectured on why revenge is bad. We gets to me is that it took until the end of season 4 for the clan to take a preemative strike against Shredder it wasn't when Saki made an alliance with the Krang or when he hired Tiger Claw or when he turned Karai into a mind controlled Snake monster or when he badly hurt Leo or when he made New York into a Kraang warzone or when he flat out destroyed the world.

The turtles already knew the Shredder was crazy and needed to be taken down, but killing is meant to be a last resort. Kinda like how in the original comic the Turtles defeat the Shredder, but give him the option to commit Seppuku so he can die with some honor. And instead, he chooses to pull out a granade and says "I may die, but I am taking you with me."

I would say after Season 2, the Shredder has shown he's beyond all hope of regaining his honor. Since he nearly killed Leo, after all the leader in blue would have bled out before Donnie or Raph could do anything to save him. While falling in Icy cold water also would have been fatal for a Turtle, Leo was running on adrenaline until he was struck down by the Shredder. The chill of the water would have caused his blood to slow down so that is the only reason he survived.


As for vengeance. There are lots of instances in media that show vengeance is justified.

But Gandhi once said, "An eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth, leaves us all blind and toothless." He meant as a means of saying that if a person seeks to violently punish their tormenters, then that person is no better then their tormentors.

Splinter's anti-vengeance argument isn't a "You can't solve violence, with violence." but rather of a cautious "You can't approach this blindly, we need to wait for our enemy to make his motives known before we act"

There is also the concept of Karma, which we do see the Shredder and those who side with him have a lot of bad karma.

The Shredder's body has been damaged via pressure points so he's essentually on life support. And he is also being injected with mutagen to rejuvenate him and give him the power and strength of a mutant.

In City at War, Splinter had encouraged her to join their side. After all, he knew she wanted to take out the Shredder, that was a goal they also wanted. Just now how she was going about it.

Karai's said herself her whole life has been hatred and revenge. That was how she was taught how to do things through the Shredder, that everything is solved with vengance. While Splinter is more pacifistic minded and wants things to begin to unfold before they start to make their own moves.

Karai just says she's going to do things her way. Splinter allows this, but reminds her there is a place for her with them when she is ready.

Leo agreed to help her because he also agreed taking out the Shredder's resources would weaken his defenses. He also knew Karai and Shinigami were taking on something that was too big for them to handle on their own. So he is making sure she doesn't get hurt or killed in her attempts go weaken the Shredder's empire.

The flaw with her plan is that the Hinch Mutants and anyone associated with the Shredder knows she wants to take out the Shredder's resources. Gradually, Tiger Claw would know where she would attempt to strike and would be prepared for her when she does. Leo was warning her that the Shredder and his forces were already aware of what she is doing and that she needs more people to help her. Which is why he suggests involving his brothers.

As Karai says, the other turtles won't involve themselves because they are loyal to Splinter. She is partially right.

Raph would be perfectly okay with disobeying Splinter, but he's not okay with putting themselves at risk just to help Karai.

Mikey would be the other side of the coin want to help Karai because she's their sister, but doesn't like the idea of disobeying Splinter.

Donnie would be more on the other side of the coin with Leo. Leo isn't involving his brothers because one he's protecting them, and two if Splinter learns of what is going on, then he is the only one being punished.

Donne like Leo also would see the merit on taking out the Shredder's resources, however, he would feel Leo should have involved them or informed them all (Splinter included) of what was going on from the start.

With Broken Foot, the other turtles noticed Leo was missing and they track him down believing that he would need their assistance. Donnie catches sight of the explosives Karai and Shinigami had planted and tries to shield his other brothers from the explosion which results in him being seriously injured.

So this the lesson of how vengeance can hurt those around you. If Donnie hadn't survived his injuries Karai would have learned that Splinter lost one of his sons because of her. And Leo would have had to live with the guilt of the blood of one of his brothers was on his hands. Or worse if Donnie hadn't noticed the explosives. Leo would have seen the party wagon and it wouldn't have taken him long to realize his brothers had been in the factory when it blew.

Donnie, of course, is able to survive, and Karai is able to see what her path of vengeance could have cost her father. However, she doesn't really learn her lesson since she escalates the issue says that she will be going after the Shredder himself.

[neatoman]

There is something I've been thinking about for the past few days. Tiger Claw is introduced as a bounty hunter Shredder hired, he's not impressed with the Foot Clan and clearly thinks Shredder has skewed priorities. And yet he's the guy who tries to bring him back to life.

The problem here is that it shouldn't be in his character to be loyal to the Shredder or the Foot. When Shredder dies he can no longer pay him, at which point he'd have no reason to stick around. In fact, if any enemies of the Foot had the coin, they should theoretically have been able to pay him off.

[newfan]

There were a couple of times TC questioned Shredder's actions but generally he seemed to hold him in high regard and so was loyal to him. Guess that developed more over time?

[Dejablue]

When it comes to revenge for Splinter it was really Us vs Them by that point. If the turtles didn't strike first I can't imagine the Shredder would just leave them alone.

[IndigoErth]

Really, why do post-apocalypse Raph and Mikey have hair/facial hair...? The designs have more detail that the main designs don't, but the addition of hair is an odd choice.

Only thing I can figure is that since such a wide area was affected by the mutagen bomb, if not the whole world, than it still should have had at least some minimal additional mutating effects on them and... I dunno, triggered dormant human DNA in them from Yoshi?? Just wish that arc would have somehow touched on an excuse reason for it, at least that they too were not entirely spared. (I mean, the blast technically killed Donnie, save for his mind ending up in a robot, so they weren't unaffected even after Leo tried to shove them all to safety and take the full impact himself.)