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Old 08-12-2013, 10:45 PM   #21
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I've always liked this aspect of the Mirage run. All those moments where the cycle of vengeance is recognized/renewed really struck a chord with me. Vengeance perpetuates vengeance, and it never ends - it only brings hatred and death to everyone it touches. Heavy stuff!
best way to explain it.
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:25 PM   #22
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Personally, I'd like Nagi to pop up in IDW as Karai's father, once again placing him back into the mythos as well as connecting him to Saki.
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:29 PM   #23
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Well, the original Mirage TMNT #1 was supposed to a one-shot parody of Daredevil, right?
Wrong.

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I've always liked this aspect of the Mirage run. All those moments where the cycle of vengeance is recognized/renewed really struck a chord with me. Vengeance perpetuates vengeance, and it never ends - it only brings hatred and death to everyone it touches. Heavy stuff!

This theme is lost a bit when you cut out Nagi and fold Splinter and Yoshi into one character, but it also makes sense for most adaptations to simplify the backstory. Ultimately it works either way, but I'm of the opinion that Nagi does have a strong narrative purpose.
Yep, without Nagi you lose a pretty important chain link in the (ultimately self-defeating) cycle. Hamato Yoshi wasn't a saint... he should have blood on his hands, too.
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:08 PM   #24
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While Nagi's easily the most expendable element of the origin story (hence his never making it out of the comics), he does play an important role in Mirage.

He sets up the idea the Shredder is simply taking revenge against Yoshi, who wronged him, albeit with the guidance and manipulation of the Foot high-ups spurring him on. It makes Splinter's subsequent revenge on Shredder a little uglier.

We get: Saki avenging Nagi by killing Yoshi > Splinter avenging Yoshi by killing Shredder (through the Turtles) > A resurrected Shredder taking revenge upon the Turtles for his death (mixing April and Casey into things) > The Turtles returning to take revenge upon Shredder > The Foot and Foot Elite vowing to take vengeance upon the Turtles > Karai making the Turtles promise to help her avenge her daughter (while finally breaking the chain)

Which is all a lot more interesting and morally cloudy than it is when Saki is just stone-cold bad-guy. While he's not essential, Nagi is a huge benefit to any version attempting to look at the consequences of Splinter and the Turtles' vengeance, as Volume 1 of Mirage does. Saki only ever wanted the same thing Splinter did.
Totally agree with the sentiment that Nagi's existence gives Saki that extra dimension in which he is motivated by revenge which is manipulated by the Foot rather than just being evil for the sake of evil. However, it still feels a bit superfluous to add another character just to give Sak his motivation. Perhaps rearranging elements of issue #1 (Nagi's love for Tang Shen and Saki's desire for revenge), The Foot manipulates Saki into seeking vengeance against Splinter for Tang Shen's death? Sounds kind of like fan fiction at this point and it retains Tang Shen's role as just a means to motivate another character (or now two) but at least it's a bit more streamlined this way with one less extraneous character.
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:20 PM   #25
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Wrong.



Yep, without Nagi you lose a pretty important chain link in the (ultimately self-defeating) cycle. Hamato Yoshi wasn't a saint... he should have blood on his hands, too.
I would have loved a casual flashback of Saki and Nagi as teens together or something. Sad thing is, noone of the Oroku family is alive to have said flashback.
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:29 PM   #26
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But wasn't Saki over 10 years Nagi's junior?
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:39 PM   #27
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But wasn't Saki over 10 years Nagi's junior?
Oh wow. You're right. Then I don't know... Maybe Saki showing young Nagi a few katas? I don't know. Fishing by the lake? Just anything with those two hangin before Nagi ever decided to join the Foot.

I forgot if Saki was already a Foot member or if he joined it as a means to get his revenge.
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Old 08-15-2013, 06:38 AM   #28
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Yep, without Nagi you lose a pretty important chain link in the (ultimately self-defeating) cycle. Hamato Yoshi wasn't a saint... he should have blood on his hands, too.
I couldn't have said it better myself. This is also why I disagree with people saying that the addition of this character makes things "convoluted".
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Totally agree with the sentiment that Nagi's existence gives Saki that extra dimension in which he is motivated by revenge which is manipulated by the Foot rather than just being evil for the sake of evil. However, it still feels a bit superfluous to add another character just to give Sak his motivation. Perhaps rearranging elements of issue #1 (Nagi's love for Tang Shen and Saki's desire for revenge), The Foot manipulates Saki into seeking vengeance against Splinter for Tang Shen's death? Sounds kind of like fan fiction at this point and it retains Tang Shen's role as just a means to motivate another character (or now two) but at least it's a bit more streamlined this way with one less extraneous character.
Do things even NEED to be streamlined, though? I don't understand what's so superfluous about the addition of Nagi. He isn't just tacked on as he serves a very important purpose, and taking him out of the story changes the story greatly, even with the revision that you were suggesting.

The way I see it, if a version of TMNT uses Nagi or not seems to depend on how they want to portray the other characters. Nagi may seem like a very minor aspect, but make no mistake: just because he's a minor character doesn't mean that the effects he has on the story are minor. A character can be minor and still have major effects on the narrative.
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Old 08-15-2013, 12:43 PM   #29
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Do things even NEED to be streamlined, though? I don't understand what's so superfluous about the addition of Nagi. He isn't just tacked on as he serves a very important purpose, and taking him out of the story changes the story greatly, even with the revision that you were suggesting.

The way I see it, if a version of TMNT uses Nagi or not seems to depend on how they want to portray the other characters. Nagi may seem like a very minor aspect, but make no mistake: just because he's a minor character doesn't mean that the effects he has on the story are minor. A character can be minor and still have major effects on the narrative.
I guess it's up to debate whether the TMNT origin needs to be streamlined; it might just be my preference. Like I said, I do agree that Nagi serves an important role as elaborated by some of the other posts, but I think it's arguable that his character only exists to provide that motivation for Shredder and Splinter; he's not really his own character, so either flesh him out or find another way to carry out his purpose.

If the idea is to have blood on Splinter's hands, I'd say the killing of Shredder is a portrayal of that. Anyway, ultimately I don't have a problem with Nagi, just expressing that I think there could be some workarounds so that there are fewer undeveloped and expendable characters.
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Old 08-15-2013, 01:04 PM   #30
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It would be interesting if Oroku Nagi somehow survived the Hamato Yoshi encounter.
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Old 08-15-2013, 01:31 PM   #31
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It would be interesting if Oroku Nagi somehow survived the Hamato Yoshi encounter.
Definitely unrealized story and character potential with Nagi. It would definitely be interesting to see Saki's reaction.
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Old 08-15-2013, 01:37 PM   #32
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Definitely unrealized story and character potential with Nagi. It would definitely be interesting to see Saki's reaction.
That the whole genesis of the circle of vengeance... would have been originating from a lie.

Would definitely make for a compelling story.
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Old 08-15-2013, 09:02 PM   #33
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That the whole genesis of the circle of vengeance... would have been originating from a lie.

Would definitely make for a compelling story.
That it would have. Imagine the potential repercussions...
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Old 08-15-2013, 11:33 PM   #34
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The argument has already been made that Splinter in the Mirage universe is kind of a shady guy, so...
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Old 08-16-2013, 03:14 AM   #35
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The argument has already been made that Splinter in the Mirage universe is kind of a shady guy, so...
Doesn't really affect Splinter's character or morality at all unless we're to assume that Splinter knowingly omitted that Nagi survived Yoshi's beating somehow... though why would he do that? His whole case hinged on selling the Turtles on them needing to kill Saki to avenge Yoshi... it'd behoove him to point out that Nagi survived and tell the truth, to paint Yoshi (his owner) in a better light than basically a cold-blooded killer who got what was coming to him when little Saki grew up.

I'm just saying, what if after Yoshi and Shen walked away, Nagi wasn't really dead. And years later he shows up.
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Old 08-16-2013, 11:43 AM   #36
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I understand his absence in FW catoons, to simplify the story, as well, Hamato Yoshi killed Nagi, was too dark to show up in the OT's. In 2k3 Shedder wasn't human, is way it was impossible to put Nagi, although the other Oroku Saki who is Tengu Shredder, could have a brother named Oroku Nagi. In cartoons again, if Hamato Yoshi is Splinter, again to simplify the story Nagi was abstent. But in IDW, i don't see any problem to put Oroku Nagi, this time in another situation.
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Old 01-25-2014, 08:46 PM   #37
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Yep, without Nagi you lose a pretty important chain link in the (ultimately self-defeating) cycle. Hamato Yoshi wasn't a saint... he should have blood on his hands, too.
I know it's odd coming back to this, but in rereading the thread this post rang a bell to me. By removing Oroku Nagi from the equation there are 2 results that are less than stellar:
1. Oroku Saki is made PURE EVIL. He's a attempted rapist and a murderer. Not a grieving brother out for revenge.
2. Hamato yoshi is made PURE GOOD. Yoshi just acts when threatened and never actually kills anyone. Sure even Mirage Yoshi acts because Nagi attacked Tang Shen, but he flat killed a dude. It's still a murder that makes him less than just "The Good Guy."
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Old 01-25-2014, 08:50 PM   #38
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I know it's odd coming back to this, but in rereading the thread this post rang a bell to me. By removing Oroku Nagi from the equation there are 2 results that are less than stellar:
1. Oroku Saki is made PURE EVIL. He's a attempted rapist and a murderer. Not a grieving brother out for revenge.
2. Hamato yoshi is made PURE GOOD. Yoshi just acts when threatened and never actually kills anyone. Sure even Mirage Yoshi acts because Nagi attacked Tang Shen, but he flat killed a dude. It's still a murder that makes him less than just "The Good Guy."
Dang... those are two very fine points. It's easy to forget Shredder was out to avenge his brother all along.
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Old 01-25-2014, 08:58 PM   #39
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Yeah, points to Mirage for making the morality of the Cycle of Vengeance very grey for a black and white comic compared to other Turtles media.

Andrew's probably tenting his fingers like Mr. Burns as I type.
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Old 01-25-2014, 09:18 PM   #40
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Blame/Thank the property becoming more mainstream. For the sake of movies and TV aimed (primarily) at kids, the protagonist and antagonist need to be much more cut-and-dry.

Although his brother getting killed hardly justifies Saki trying to rape Tang Shen in any way, let alone kill her. And I'm not a huge fan of Splinter as a douche. So I've always looked at the changes as improvements, really.

So much of Mirage #1 would likely have been written differently had they known they were building the foundation for another 30+ years of stories, instead of a one-shot parody book.
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