Star Wars Episode 8

[Shark_Blade]

Originally Posted by Utrommaniac

Snoke is just a lot more dubious and confusing (and still no answers for what the heck happened to his face.)

He's just born ugly like the hunchback of Notre Dame. Probably.

[Vegita-San]

something I saw elsewhere... does this seem mostly true? interesting thought.

<<<Isn't it amazing that a lot of people who love TLJ are hyper critical of the OT to try and justify TLJ'S flaws. The OT has stood the test of time. In ten years I sincerely doubt TLJ will hold up so well, or be remembered fondly. >>>

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

So let's just kill him and not even get into any of it? Again, lame. Not clever, just lame.

Are you talking about narratively, or within the confines of the story?
Because...just outright killing a guy like that usually isn't a great idea. All you do is make him a martyr to the cause.

That's kind of what Obi Wan said in the first movie.

[Vegita-San]

forbes needs to get its act together.

does disney wars need saving, or is it doing ok? gotta decide on one narrative or the other!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain.../#1b2227c557fa

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Utrommaniac

I'm not really sure there was much explanation for Darth Sidious either? Except Snoke is just a lot more dubious and confusing (and still no answers for what the heck happened to his face.)

We know enough about Sidious. We know at some point in the past he was Darth Plagueis' pupil, then became a senator on Naboo. We know he is carrying on the Sith tradition, as was explained. We don't know anything else, but we know enough to get a handle on him. We don't on Snoke. It's like TMNT 2014, with the Turtles and Splinter hating Shredder for reasons unknown, then he "dies" before they even bothered to give him any kind of backstory or motivation.

My point is, how did a blatantly "Out" Dark Side user like Snoke take power in the First Order, when Palpatine kept that stuff under wraps the whole time, all the way to his death? Who would knowingly follow someone evil?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Here's a possibly geeky nitpick/possibly not about 7 and 8, Snoke in particular...

OK, so the Republic are aware the Sith are evil, were all defeated in some war 500 years before Episode I, right? Palpatine's rise to power, the only people who are aware he's a Sith are the Jedi, who are immediately killed or driven into exile. "By the way, I'm a Sith Lord!" was never a part of his "I'm creating an Empire!" speech, nor would I believe that would have ever come up afterward. He went to the trouble of explaining his change in appearance and sudden penchant for big black hooded robes were to cover up his injuries from Windu. Presumably if it was known he was a Sith he would have faced some pretty strong opposition in the Senate in the 20 years between Episode III and IV. Granted, the high-ranking Imperials in that Death Star room in IV knew ("Your Emperor's sorcerer's ways!")... but surely not the whole of the Empire knew? These were just carry-overs from the Republic, people just doing a job. "The Sith are good!" was not a part of the Emperor's New Order or anything... so the Sith presumably remained a scary, villainous thing in the eyes of all before, during, and after the Empire, right?

So 30 years later, a very, very obvious... if not a Sith outright, then certainly super Dark Side user comes along. Snoke. I mean, he's not even trying to hide it remotely. The whole First Order just forms around this guy right away, enthusiastically? Rally around him to such a degree that apparently the First Order even outnumber and outgun the fledgling New Republic in 8? This doesn't compute. If that were to happen, this Snoke guy would have had to have been super charismatic, even more savvy and conniving than Palpatine. What a guy that must have been.

So let's just kill him and not even get into any of it? Again, lame. Not clever, just lame.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

We know enough about Sidious. We know at some point in the past he was Darth Plagueis' pupil, then became a senator on Naboo. We know he is carrying on the Sith tradition, as was explained. We don't know anything else, but we know enough to get a handle on him. We don't on Snoke. It's like TMNT 2014, with the Turtles and Splinter hating Shredder for reasons unknown, then he "dies" before they even bothered to give him any kind of backstory or motivation.

My point is, how did a blatantly "Out" Dark Side user like Snoke take power in the First Order, when Palpatine kept that stuff under wraps the whole time, all the way to his death? Who would knowingly follow someone evil?

And all of this is yet one more reason I feel that axing the old EU material in favor of- THIS- was a HUGE mistake of the highest order. I can maybe forgive Han's death, but the villains have been so underwhelming and inexplicable so far, that it makes me sad for what we COULD have had instead. Give me Thrawn and /Joruus over spoiled entitled brat Kylo and Snoke any day. While I was okay with Finn, Rey and Poe in 7, I'm not sure if I care for the narrative they are building for these new heroes. It all just seems so shallow and weak.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

And all of this is yet one more reason I feel that axing the old EU material in favor of- THIS- was a HUGE mistake of the highest order. I can maybe forgive Han's death, but the villains have been so underwhelming and inexplicable so far, that it makes me sad for what we COULD have had instead. Give me Thrawn and /Joruus over spoiled entitled brat Kylo and Snoke any day. While I was okay with Finn, Rey and Poe in 7, I'm not sure if I care for the narrative they are building for these new heroes. It all just seems so shallow and weak.

Bingo.

Star wars has ALWAYS started off at a jumping point where you don't know alot of what is going on. At least this way, Disney doesn't have to work out alot of the back story, because it was all done in the books! You don't really need to know who mara jade is. just do some throw away dialogue and boom, explained in 5 seconds.

As bad as some of the books where, the characters themselves where mostly LIKEABLE. and legends in there own right without having stepped foot on screen.

But that was the first nail in the coffin for disney wars. How they mis handled all the new stuff from books to movies was the second.

Despite TFA being a retread, I thought the new characters could be likeable if they worked some things out. All that went out the window with this movie. I didn't care if finn died. I didn't care what happened to rey. Poe was useless..

sigh. total mess.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Actually, Mara Jade explained to Luke pretty clearly who she was when they were on the planet with the Yreslamari(sp?) aka "Force-null" lizards. When they were forced to work together to survive, she told him the story of how the Emperor raised and trained her personally as his "Hand" and how her entire destiny was to kill him. Her backstory is right there in the story. Thrawn's was pretty well spelled out, too, as the only non-human Grand Admiral (and one of the few non-human high-ranked officers) in the Empire. The story of C'Boath was told over the course of the trilogy, and why he was so unstable was explained early on. All well-fleshed, interesting characters whom were not just one-dimensional retreads of the OT characters with different names and appearances. (And the books introduced a much richer history between them and the OT, which made for a great deal better storytelling opportunities.)

That said, it would have to be the RIGHT set of books/stories to really work. A lot of the Jedi Academy/ Young Jedi Knights series would work if condensed a bit, like the Jacen/Jaina, Lowbacca, and Tenel Kaa relationships, the death of Chewie in Vector Prime (which was what made me put that book down and leave it unfinished, it was just so darn depressing that I couldn't read past it, in spite of how great a scene it was) and some other really great moments that would have been SOOO much better than the current "canon". As much as I love SW, the new movies just don't feel like they belong to the same universe in some ways.

[CyberCubed]

Your average fan or people who never read the EU like myself were in no way going to be able to digest that amount of information in a single movie. Especially since Luke/Han/Leia are old now whereas a lot of the events of the EU especially with their kids happened right after and only a few decades after Episode 6...not 30+ years later.

It doesn't make sense to keep that baggage when most people never read comics/novels, etc. The only way this would have worked is if we got a new trilogy with the original cast back in the 90's, when Mark Hammil, Harrison Ford, etc. were only a decade older after Episode 6 came out in 1983, but of course George Lucas was too busy planning and making the prequels at the time.

[Shark_Blade]

Okay, 2 questions.

1) Can someone explain to me why Luke did the hologram thing instead of just facing Kylo in person?

He's planning to die anyway why waste so much energy? Just to prove he's better than any Jedi ever? Yeah I know Luke's a drama queen but still...

I can't even, why what.

2) I think I finally grasp why Vice Admiral Holdo didn't tell Poe her plan. She didn't trust the rogue captain from the start but it doesn't make any sense why she still won't tell him when the mutiny happened...why? Cause she's so egotistical?


And I saw the Jedi manuals were brought onboard the Milennium Falcon by Rey (it's when Finn was rummaging the drawers that we saw the books). Kinda pointless that Yoda and Luke burnt down that empty tree then...

[AT-Man]

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

Okay, 2 questions.

1) Can someone explain to me why Luke did the hologram thing instead of just facing Kylo in person?

He's planning to die anyway why waste so much energy? Just to prove he's better than any Jedi ever? Yeah I know Luke's a drama queen but still...

I can't even, why what.

I believe he didn't want Kylo to actually kill him. He practically denied Kylo his revenge.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Your average fan or people who never read the EU like myself were in no way going to be able to digest that amount of information in a single movie. Especially since Luke/Han/Leia are old now whereas a lot of the events of the EU especially with their kids happened right after and only a few decades after Episode 6...not 30+ years later.

It doesn't make sense to keep that baggage when most people never read comics/novels, etc. The only way this would have worked is if we got a new trilogy with the original cast back in the 90's, when Mark Hammil, Harrison Ford, etc. were only a decade older after Episode 6 came out in 1983, but of course George Lucas was too busy planning and making the prequels at the time.

Yes, let's not mistake criticism of 8 as "this is why the EU should have stood!" It shouldn't have.

[sdp]

Lucas' VII-IX would've ignored all the stuff from the EU anyhow, too much had happened. But I guess as always he would've kept the tier canons. The difference is the EU would've had some DC level retcon to make it fit.

They did it when the prequels happened and they would've done it again even if it was a book about how "things are messed up but this special stone can change some of the past events" and voila you can justify any kids not being born or whatever into the already convoluted EU.

I wonder how Lucas feels about hiring Kathleen Keneddy, she trusted Star Wars on her and she scrapped his Ep. VII - IX. I'm guessing he chose her because he thought she'd do his projects justice but it backfired. She was highly respected in the Jurassic Park fandom so I thought she'd be a good selection.

This Sequel Trilogy makes me feel exactly how those fans who hated the Prequel Trilogy, ironic. But despite its flaws to me it was only Ep. III that did damage to a lot of what was already set up in the OT. While here we're 2 movies in and I don't see a way for the last movie to fix things.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Actually, Mara Jade explained to Luke pretty clearly who she was when they were on the planet with the Yreslamari(sp?) aka "Force-null" lizards. When they were forced to work together to survive, she told him the story of how the Emperor raised and trained her personally as his "Hand" and how her entire destiny was to kill him. Her backstory is right there in the story. Thrawn's was pretty well spelled out, too, as the only non-human Grand Admiral (and one of the few non-human high-ranked officers) in the Empire. The story of C'Boath was told over the course of the trilogy, and why he was so unstable was explained early on. All well-fleshed, interesting characters whom were not just one-dimensional retreads of the OT characters with different names and appearances. (And the books introduced a much richer history between them and the OT, which made for a great deal better storytelling opportunities.)

That said, it would have to be the RIGHT set of books/stories to really work. A lot of the Jedi Academy/ Young Jedi Knights series would work if condensed a bit, like the Jacen/Jaina, Lowbacca, and Tenel Kaa relationships, the death of Chewie in Vector Prime (which was what made me put that book down and leave it unfinished, it was just so darn depressing that I couldn't read past it, in spite of how great a scene it was) and some other really great moments that would have been SOOO much better than the current "canon". As much as I love SW, the new movies just don't feel like they belong to the same universe in some ways.

Yep, agreed.

I meant explained to the movie audience who didn't know who mara jade was. all the book history could be explained in exposition.

I would have liked to see a live action tenal ka, or jaina. Or Corran horn. Or Iella.

All the work was already done for them. but, IMHO, that would mean KK would have to respect other peoples accomplishments and work off of them rather than create her own. So, she threw them all out in hopes they could do better.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by sdp

This Sequel Trilogy makes me feel exactly how those fans who hated the Prequel Trilogy, ironic. But despite its flaws to me it was only Ep. III that did damage to a lot of what was already set up in the OT. While here we're 2 movies in and I don't see a way for the last movie to fix things.

Out of curiosity what flaws do you think the last movie needs to "fix?" I can see them giving some brief backstory in Snoke in the last movie, but that's all they need to do. I hope they don't make Rey's parents important. We know we're going to see Force Ghost Luke either way.

All they really have to do is give some closure to Kylo Ren, we'll most likely see him use the Knights of Ren now that he is Supreme leader, and then give Rey some decent heroic stuff to do while hopefully not going too far with it. Maz will probably tell Rey that Luke left her his lightsaber after Kylo Ren betrayed him and there's not much more.

As for all the other characters like Finn, Poe, Rose, etc...again, I'm not expecting much. They're just support characters and fighter pilots, they'll probably be used the same way Han, Lando and Wedge were used in Episode 6.

[sdp]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Out of curiosity what flaws do you think the last movie needs to "fix?"

That's the thing, for me the trilogy cannot be fixed, with this new trilogy they undid everything the OT did and made it as if those victories and that whole adventure we saw meant nothing.

Kylo turns to the light or is killed? doesn't matter. Rey has interesting parents and we get Snoke's backstory? That'd be interesting but it doesn't fix the problem.

We know that by the end of the movie The First Order will be defeated "forever" and "This time it's for real". I don't know, even if they add some cool subplot or whatever I don't see how they can fix repeating the Empire vs Rebels story.

TLJ is getting more heat than it should when it was TFA that created the major issue, TLJ just continued it. I just can't see what Disney could do to have IX redeem the trilogy for me, if it were to happen then awesome.

I think what Disney will take from this backlash is this "We took too many risks in TLJ, let's keep it safe like TFA for all the sequels, we were doing good then"

[Spike Spiegel]

[Vegita-San]

i love this lady. glad she hated it.

[Vegita-San]

I guess I should have put two and two together, but kathleen kennedy founding this vaunted 'story group' explains alot of things.

and why the new books suck
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/22/m...-universe.html

this article basically makes me want to oy vey. lots of revisionist history in this one. including thinking it was rebels that made asoka a popular character.

[Shark_Blade]

Originally Posted by AT-Man

I believe he didn't want Kylo to actually kill him. He practically denied Kylo his revenge.

So he killed himself instead? I don't get it.

It seems so foolish tbh.

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

2) I think I finally grasp why Vice Admiral Holdo didn't tell Poe her plan. She didn't trust the rogue captain from the start but it doesn't make any sense why she still won't tell him when the mutiny happened...why? Cause she's so egotistical?

I got the answer to this. Sort of.

https://www.theverge.com/platform/am...eron-star-wars

First, after Poe ignores Leia’s order to retreat during an attack on a First Order Dreadnought, his disobedience leads the loss of all of the Resistance’s bombers. He is demoted, and when Vice-Admiral Holdo steps up as the resistance leader after Leia’s injuries and declines to share her plans with Poe, he’s clearly rattled; he’s always been one of Leia’s most trusted operatives in the movement. But as Verge veteran Kwame Opam noted on Twitter, his behavior gives Holdo every reason to cut him out of the loop.

Kwame Opam
@kwameopam
People keep asking why Vice Admiral Holdo doesn't just tell Poe the evacuation plan.

Simple: Poe acted recklessly, got people killed, and got demoted. Holdo doesn't have to tell him anything. Poe isn't entitled to strategic knowledge, and it sucks that fans expected different.

When he learns of Holdo’s plans to evacuate the remaining resistance members on smaller transporters, he decides to take matters into his own hands and instigate a mutiny, which is cut short when Leia awakens and stuns him. Sure, Poe is one of the good guys, but his recklessness and need to be the hero lead to disaster.

Although he ultimately learns that his and Holdo’s plans are very similar, his actions end up undermining the Resistance and delaying their attempt to flee from a deadly attack. Some problems, it turns out, can’t be solved by a ragtag band of would-be heroes who think they know best.

On the salt-planet Crait, it’s Finn who’s too hotheaded for his own good, and tries to sacrifice himself to take out the First Order’s door-busting cannon. Although the now-wiser Poe orders Finn to pull out, it’s Rose who stops Finn by knocking his ship out of the line of fire. Although it looks for a moment like he’s going to go out in a heroic blaze of glory, she recognizes how foolish and ultimately useless that sacrifice would be.

Responsibility is a core theme in the film, which we also see in Luke Skywalker’s arc and his admission to Rey about why Ben Solo turned to the dark side. It’s a big change for a franchise that has always been more interested in the hotshot antics of the “galaxy’s best pilot” than the practical results of taking those sorts of absurd risks. It subverts Star Wars norm of rewarding impulsive decisions with accolades, and paves the way for a richer narrative that acknowledges the fact that sometimes, good guys can inadvertently do bad things with lasting consequences.