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Old 04-02-2018, 09:48 PM   #1
MikeandRaph87
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Amazing Spider-Man, The Defalco Run

I have a set of Essential Spider-Man which collects all of the first 248 issues and the annuals up to that point. I picked up where it left off with #249 and read through #290 as well as Spectacular#105 tie-in, Spider-Man vs Wolverine and Hobgoblin Lives 3 part mini. I also threw in Secret War (1984) for wider context. The run started off really good. A lot was going on, a little too much really. There was the ongoing "who is the Hobgoblin?" plot as well as Mary Jane returning after a four year absence and he retconned into knowing Peter is Spider-Man. A new neutral character Puma is introduced during all of the alien costume and ties into everything including the odd follow up in Secret War II. Harry and Liz have their son during the Hobgoblin craziness too. However, around #263 thing start to fall off. Its a string of one-offs not really connected to anything. X-Men villain Toad decides to reform after Spider-Man talks him down from suicide and forms a group of losers that never appeared again. Then we have Spider-Man chase a commuter in the suburbs. That should have been all of five pages in a backup! Kingpin foiled at hoarding gold and the Red Ghost makes an elderly burglar, The Black Fox his foil while a high school football player wants to make a name for himself challenging Spider-Man! Really? He gets a better challenge right after with Galactus's number two, Firelord! That was good as well as the Sinister Syndicate vs Spider-Man/Silver Sable/Sandman. The Rose element was okay, but just got resolved too easily in Gang War that everything wrapped up in. Jack O' Lantern wants Hobgoblin? It is not really clear why he goes form being hired by Hobgoblin to salvage the the battle van to wanting to kill Hobgoblin and he as an assassin hires another assassin to do it! Also, Betty Brant and Flash Thompson I never thought about being in the same social circle and having an emotional affair at that. It was nice to see Hammerhead in Gang War,but he was used as fodder, a way to strengthen Kingpin in the story and gave up too easily!

If I understand correctly, the heavily plotted story devolving into a string of sub-par one-shots was when there was an editor change, DeFalco was the Spider-Man editor, but he was writing and Jim Owlsey takes Amazing for himself early in the Gang War story-line that was wrapping up the Hobgoblin plot among others. Among other things I wonder if the alien costume was supposed to be left as a dangling plot as it was trying to get out of the container in FF headquarters as foreshadowed by a panel. Spider-Man kept chang back and forth from his traditional costume to black in every other story before settling on the black costume. I wonder if these had anything to do with editorial or writer?

Peter just got out of the romance with Black Cat and even though they had broken up she was given a roof while she was looking for another apartment after her's war firebombed. It was weird seeing Felicia jumping into Peter's arms at the end of #289 with the very next story, Peter trying to figure out if MJ and him are friends or are they dating (Spider-Man vs Wolverine). Then just the second story removed he proposed to her. Granted he had before, it just comes out of nowhere and it seemed like it was not a natural progression. He goes from kissing her when emotional not even romantically and feeling guilty to thinking she does not want to see him again to proposing. I love the Peter/Mary Jane dynamic, it just needed more time to ease into it. Is it another side effect of Jim Owsley meddling?

http://www.comicscube.com/2015/07/th...falco-and.html

So, thoughts?
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Old 04-06-2018, 10:01 AM   #2
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Here is a podcast I found to go with the thread, the writer and artist talk about the run.
https://podtail.com/en/podcast/the-e...n-amazing-spi/

I look forward to reading your thoughts on the monster reading I just finished.
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Old 04-16-2018, 08:59 AM   #3
ZariusTwo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87 View Post
Peter just got out of the romance with Black Cat and even though they had broken up she was given a roof while she was looking for another apartment after her's war firebombed. It was weird seeing Felicia jumping into Peter's arms at the end of #289 with the very next story, Peter trying to figure out if MJ and him are friends or are they dating (Spider-Man vs Wolverine). Then just the second story removed he proposed to her. Granted he had before, it just comes out of nowhere and it seemed like it was not a natural progression. He goes from kissing her when emotional not even romantically and feeling guilty to thinking she does not want to see him again to proposing. I love the Peter/Mary Jane dynamic, it just needed more time to ease into it. Is it another side effect of Jim Owsley meddling?
At the end of Spider-Man vs Wolverine, MJ is the one who returns to Peter's side and they make up for the emotional duress they had when they kissed earlier on in the story, so Peter was in the clear when thinking about making MJ his wife.

Even in the context of what was going on behind the scenes (mandating the marriage because Stan had decided to marry the characters off), it still made perfect sense for Peter to propose to MJ a second time and did not feel rushed at all. The two had been frequently seeing each other on/off for a while at that point, even when Peter was dating Felicia, MJ steadily becoming a confidant. It made sense for Peter to want to invest in that trust when Felicia broke his own dealing with The Foreigner.
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:04 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by ZariusTwo View Post
At the end of Spider-Man vs Wolverine, MJ is the one who returns to Peter's side and they make up for the emotional duress they had when they kissed earlier on in the story, so Peter was in the clear when thinking about making MJ his wife.

Even in the context of what was going on behind the scenes (mandating the marriage because Stan had decided to marry the characters off), it still made perfect sense for Peter to propose to MJ a second time and did not feel rushed at all. The two had been frequently seeing each other on/off for a while at that point, even when Peter was dating Felicia, MJ steadily becoming a confidant. It made sense for Peter to want to invest in that trust when Felicia broke his own dealing with The Foreigner.
I only read the Amazing title with certain exceptions (Secret War II crossover, Death of Jean DeWolff, and Kraven's Last Hunt as I kept going after ASM#290) so perhaps I missed something. It depicted Black Cat in a new costume and the last panel she lept into Peter's arms after living with him temporarily after her apartment was firebombed and the next ASM issue he decides what is missing in his life is marriage and by that I mean to MJ. I realize one should read Spider-Man vs Wolverine as a bridge which I did. It seemed like that Peter was ashamed for kissing her and then they got back together as the end of the one-shot when she okayed it. Then jumping into the marriage. I am a fan of the marriage, it just did not seem like a lead up to the marriage. Like not engaged for a calendar year our time and then marry even if Peter proposed back in ASM#180(might be an issue or two off?). Perhaps the rush for the reader is the fact it was mandated by his creator.

I can't really see Macendale as Hobgoblin II. It just feels like Jack O'Lantern is pretending to be Hobgoblin. I am up to Inferno in my reading. Perhaps this will explain how Demogoblin came to be.

One thing I noticed when looking ahead, Mary Jane gets up to three or more stalkers. Okay so she is a NYC model,but its like they all come out of the wood works once she marries Peter. Its a tired plot.

Did Norman Osborne and Roderick Kingsley ever face-off? Jack O'Lantern vs Harry Osborne isn't really exciting in comparison to the real deals.
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:38 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87 View Post
I can't really see Macendale as Hobgoblin II. It just feels like Jack O'Lantern is pretending to be Hobgoblin.
Wait until you reach the Hobgoblin Lives mini-series, trust me, your opinions are shared by one character in particular and there is a satisfactory pay-off.

Quote:
I am up to Inferno in my reading. Perhaps this will explain how Demogoblin came to be.
It does. It's a bit weird to start out with, but there's a decent (albeit super dark and graphic) story that comes out of it called "Masques"

Quote:
One thing I noticed when looking ahead, Mary Jane gets up to three or more stalkers. Okay so she is a NYC model,but its like they all come out of the wood works once she marries Peter. Its a tired plot.
Yeah, and even some of the stalker plotlines overlap other stalker plotlines

Quote:
Did Norman Osborne and Roderick Kingsley ever face-off?
Without spoiling too much...yes.
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Old 04-16-2018, 07:37 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZariusTwo View Post
Wait until you reach the Hobgoblin Lives mini-series, trust me, your opinions are shared by one character in particular and there is a satisfactory pay-off.
I read Hobgolbin Lives #1-3 back in 2012 when I bought the series at a flea market,but I recently reread it between ASM#189 and Spider-Man vs Wolvernine. It never made much sense having Macendale hire another assassin to off Hobgoblin and drop his act to take on the other. Kingsley allowed Macendale to steal the identity until he got captured and revealed too much. I just can't take him seriously after that.

Quote:
It does. It's a bit weird to start out with, but there's a decent (albeit super dark and graphic) story that comes out of it called "Masques"
It seems like editorial did not know what to do with the character after he stole the Hobgoblin identity so this and the cyborg bits were attempts to make him a threat that never did much than add footnotes to Jack O'Lantern.

Spoiler:
Yeah, and even some of the stalker plotlines overlap other stalker plotlines

While I am not there yet as I looked ahead to the Return of The Sinister Six arc, she had what three stalkers? One, a security guard killed the apartment owner and threatened a super-fan of the General Hospital knockoff. Is it a way of saying Peter the loser got a super hot wife and people are jealous? Its the wrong approach! One stalker would have been fine but even after those three doesn't she get kidnapped around 2000 after thought to be killed in a plane crash. Does marriage have to be a soap opera?

Quote:
Without spoiling too much...yes.
Go ahead and spoil away!

I only have the entire rogues gallery of Spider-Man in clix form and read 312 issues of one title alone.
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Old 04-20-2018, 09:32 AM   #7
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Go ahead and spoil away!

I only have the entire rogues gallery of Spider-Man in clix form and read 312 issues of one title alone.
It was kind of mutual mind games between the two, they joined forces to take down Peter (who had a bounty on his head at the time I think), Norman was a legit businessmanso and had another Green Goblin flying around doing his dirty work. Roderick had his hands on something that could have connected Norman to his Goblin activities, but Norman eventually got his hands on it and betrayed Roderick.

They had a brief struggle and Roderick got away, taking off to an island retreat and staying there for a long time until 2011 (though before that, he would come out of retirement in the Spider-Girl comics, where he was ultimately killed by Mayday's clone April). I think they had a proper battle much later on in Superior Spider-Man, but I don't count that in my headcanon
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Old 04-22-2018, 07:33 PM   #8
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It was kind of mutual mind games between the two, they joined forces to take down Peter (who had a bounty on his head at the time I think), Norman was a legit businessmanso and had another Green Goblin flying around doing his dirty work. Roderick had his hands on something that could have connected Norman to his Goblin activities, but Norman eventually got his hands on it and betrayed Roderick.

They had a brief struggle and Roderick got away, taking off to an island retreat and staying there for a long time until 2011 (though before that, he would come out of retirement in the Spider-Girl comics, where he was ultimately killed by Mayday's clone April). I think they had a proper battle much later on in Superior Spider-Man, but I don't count that in my headcanon
Oh, yeah I remember that. Roderick tricks Norman into getting him out of prison claiming one of Norman's journals survived the fire in ASM#250 only for Norman to take Roderick's fashion company form him and Roderick using his secondary account to retire to an island off the east coast outside of U.S. jurisdiction. That was just before Spectacular ended and ASM renumbered the first time. They were in plain clothes though not actually full costume fighting right? It was a corporate duel I think. I wanted to see them together in costume instead of a replacement like Jack O' Lantern and Harry.

I noticed that Jim Owsley is still around writing a Deathstroke title as Christopher Priest when I read up on this Deathtsroke vs Batman arc. He seems to be the reason for the whole Hobgoblin mess. Another thing I find funny, when I went back and read The Death of Jean Dewolffe and Return of The Sin Eater over the last week, Owsley fired Milgrom because the title had become "whimsical". He wanted an adult appeal. Doc Ock put Black Cat in the hospital for an extended period and the sexualization of Black Cat so its hard to see that. I feel like this guy just wanted to write the Spider-Man titles through a proxy.
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Old 04-23-2018, 01:47 PM   #9
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Peter ended hi graduate studies abruptly. It seemed odd Spider-Man got in the way when it had not stopped him before. Was it an editorial decision? Also, about six months after the marriage Peter looks into a photography class before he realizes the need to resume the degree he was after. We meet Dr. Sloane once again when he inquires about the photography class, but a month in comic-time later Dr. Swann is over Peter when he resumes and he has one other grad student,who has not been fleshed out aside form a cameo before ASM#318 (where I can now). Why the professor change? Did the degree?

Also, what is up with Marcy Kane being an alien all this time and sent to get a substance from her ex-boyfriend jack of Hearts? There may be abruptness in the ongoing adventures of Peter Parker,but this was just plain out of nowhere and does not fit the character. Peter's period of graduate school 1979-1983 seems underrated overall.

Did Peter ever earn the graduate degree?
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Old 04-23-2018, 02:03 PM   #10
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Did Peter ever earn the graduate degree?
Ock is the one that gets him it in Superior I think
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Old 04-23-2018, 02:25 PM   #11
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Ock is the one that gets him it in Superior I think
So it was a doctoral program that Peter was in? I just assumed it was a masters in biochemistry or something of the related subject at the masters level. Did he drop out a second time? I know Doc Ock got the doctoral degree under his rival colleague,but I assumed Peter had the masters. I know in some fields law and PT you can skip the masters level and be a doctor in the field. I didn't think it was the case with Peter.
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