Should the Franchise Be Going In the Opposite Direction?

[IndigoErth]

Well I'm glad something good came of all that. lol




Anyhow... been about a year now since that Batman VS TMNT movie came out. So as far as further supporting some amount of TMNT going in an older direction, hoping maybe at some point we'll hear about a sequel. Even if the virus could delay anything being made, the plans could at least still happen?

[Leo656]

I'd say anything is possible. Especially with an animated project because a lot of that work can be done from home, as is happening now. Plus, WB seems to be in an unusually generous mood lately, if this morning's news is any indication. So I guess it pays to hold on to hope.

Still gotta get around to seeing TMNT/Batman. It looks very fan-wanky to me and I kinda don't like the art style, plus the comic it's based on seems absolutely dreadful. But if I come across it cheap I'll finally bite one of these days. I'm not avoiding it on purpose, what I've seen of it just didn't sell me. But I get all the Batman stuff eventually, anyway, though.

Speaking of Batman, and of early-90s cult super-hero movies, another one I'm overdue for is The Shadow. I was too young to appreciate some of this stuff.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Still gotta get around to seeing TMNT/Batman. It looks very fan-wanky to me and I kinda don't like the art style, plus the comic it's based on seems absolutely dreadful. But if I come across it cheap I'll finally bite one of these days. I'm not avoiding it on purpose, what I've seen of it just didn't sell me. But I get all the Batman stuff eventually, anyway, though.

Speaking of Batman, and of early-90s cult super-hero movies, another one I'm overdue for is The Shadow. I was too young to appreciate some of this stuff.

Here, here, bro! I'm a major Bat-fan and a huge TMNT fan and I love the IDW TMNT books. When they crossed over I rolled my eyes and completely ignored it as the comic looked terrible and screamed gimmick. I think the movie looks better than the book and if I happen by it some day I may check it out but I won't go out of my way. Also, if you are a Shadow fan, the Alec Baldwin movie is worth a watch. Just don't expect it to be like the pulps or the radio show. It's more of a hybrid of 60+ years of Shadow history. Not amazing but not bad either.

[Leo656]

I know very little, but the character has always intrigued me anyway.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I know very little, but the character has always intrigued me anyway.

Still, it's worth a watch. But yeah as far as Batman/TMNT or Ghostbusters/TMNT for that matter, I'm sure those minis have their audience but as someone who has followed IDW's main TMNT storyline they just weren't for me. The only minis that intrigue me are the Secret History of the Foot, the micro-hero/villain stories and the new Shredder in Hell thing that I have yet to read. I am SO THANKFUL that IDW doesn't make the mini-series mandatory to follow along on the main storyline.

[Leo656]

Shoot, I forgot they did a Ghostbusters one.

It's kinda crazy how so many things that I would have sh*t myself over as a kid, have now actually happened and I'm kinda "meh" about it. That's life, I guess.

[IndigoErth]

I need a TMNT/Ghostbusters movie. (Not necessarily with the comic crossover storyline.)

Animation would be nice... but my god, if a live action one was done just for the hell of it, just to make something crazy... heck, I wouldn't even care if it was the PD boys (but maybe scaled down in size) for the sake of saving time with existing CGI characters they'd just render out alongside the ghost/monster CGI and effects.

[Leo656]

I'd settle for the goddamn Larry Storch/Forrest Tucker "Ghost Busters" (two words) who hung out with a gorilla, so long as nobody from "Answer The Call" was allowed anywhere near the damn project.

[PizzaPower1985]

I could get into a Real Ghostbusters / Red Sky TMNT crossover featuring The Boogieman (Nightmare-fuel) and Samhain teaming with Lord Dregg against our heroes. That would be nuts. They'd have to make it dark and scary though for me to really get into it.

[Leo656]

I'unno about all that, myself, but anything with either Boogeyman or Samhain would demand my attention, let alone both of them. Those were the coolest RGB villains for sure.

[PizzaPower1985]

I always thought the Boogieman was the scariest thing when I was 7. For me scarier than all of the slasher films of the 80's. Scarier than Freddy Krueger etc. And when I started reading Batman comics and seeing all of the variations on Joker art I thought "heh heh... The Boogieman with his weird hair, white face and red mouth is the craziest Joker variant there is." I can't be the only one to make the connection between Boogieman and Joker.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Leo656

You reminded me to finally get around to watching "Darkman". I don't think I've ever seen it in full!

I'd suggest watching the first two, but maaaaybe skip 3 and 4. Hubby and I own the entire movie series, and for being some of Raimi's early work, the original is great!

[Leo656]

I wasn't aware of how many films are in the series, but I've heard that there are some extremely diminishing returns.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Yeah, by the third movie, his motivation becomes- a BIT thin, IMHO. And the bad guys got progressively worse, too. But in fairness, I don't think Raimi was actively working of them by that point. I know he did the first two, but after that? I don't recall. Though his disguises DID get better in terms of time-limits and skill.

[PizzaPower1985]

It is my hope that Nickelodeon can at some point recognize the potential that a property like TMNT has to appeal to the original fans and starts to lean more into the Eastman/Laird/Mirage era OR find ways to make every incarnation accessible to 35 to 50 year old original fans who desperately love TMNT and want to be able to to engage in the property the way the quality works like 1990 movie or the IDW books or maybe even 2K3 (it's a lil' too juvenile for some) has allowed them to.

Perhaps this thread has already answered the question, but... maybe it's not possible for TMNT to reach their true potential being owned by Nickelodeon?

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

Perhaps this thread has already answered the question, but... maybe it's not possible for TMNT to reach their true potential being owned by Nickelodeon?

Probably not, but then the question and fear is, who do they sell to? Who do they potentially get trapped with next, if Nick is willing to give them up? Who would we be comfortable with.

DC seems to be the predictable route, given the relationship that seems to have formed. Though while I'm all for the TMNT being free to visit DC properties as much as they and DC like, I'm hesitant on wanting them to be owned by one of the big comic companies and possibly just getting permanently trapped there, just shelved and lost among the countless other characters those kinds of companies have at their disposal.

I almost wish they were public domain, but no way will we ever see that day and that surely won't happen until they've been forgotten for too long...


I wish they'd move on being just broadly a Viacom property, not just known as a Nick one, and just continue being increasingly willing to license them out to others (like DC, etc) who want to do things with them. If they remained open to allowing others to do things with them, not just kiddie Nick stuff, then I might be okay with them staying with Viacom, at least for now. If companies like DC, etc got their mitts on them, it might be questionable if they'd allow anyone else to touch them ever again...?

[PizzaPower1985]

I have NO DOUBT that being owned by a comic book corporation like DC or Marvel and by extension WB and Disney would be bad for the brand. Maybe Marvel in the 70's or 80's owning them wouldn't be bad but Marvel is a shadow of a shadow of a shadow of it's former self. Marvel back decades ago got licensed properties like Indiana Jones, RoboCop and (to a degree though it wasn't always great) Star Wars and respected the hell out of those franchises by treating them with quality.

I think probably what has to happen (AND NEVER WILL) is that Mega Corporation X has to own the TMNT whole cloth then license them out to places like WB, Disney etc. and say MAKE A SHOW/WRITE A COMIC/DESIGN A GAME... BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD IT HAVE LESS THAN A HARD PG or PG 13 Rating.

TMNT should be for ALL AGES, AS LONG AS THOSE AGES DON'T INCLUDE 15 and under. Now, that's subjective, ain't it? What exactly can a 15 year old be exposed to that a 13 year old can't these days?

FANS want TMNT to be taken seriously as a property and yet, we get RISE and 2012 cartoons and Nick lets Michael Bay make movies and HOW EXACTLY is TMNT supposed to be taken seriously? I still don't understand why the 2012 show isn't treated with the same scorn as Next Mutation.

WE have to go to FAN conventions and the NEXT TIME a TMNT project is announced... if it looks even minutely like your 10 year old could see it, WE NEED TO BOO THEM SO HARD. As a collective... and then start chanting something like "MAKE IT DARKER" or something. Those corporate suits HAVE NO RESPECT for Kevin and Peter's creation. We need to make them respect it.

[Leo656]

DC's done some interesting things with the He-Man/Masters of the Universe property in recent years. I haven't finished it but I really liked the beginning of the recent "Masters of the Multiverse" mini-series, for example. Much of the material they've published with those books skews darker (extremely so for a licensed property) and is definitely more geared towards fans who grew up with the originals, rather than at kids. And the line isn't "part of" the DC Universe despite being owned and published by DC, and the cross-overs and interactions are kept extremely minimal. It's not like Prince Adam suddenly starts hanging out at the JLA Watchtower; it's a separate universe that happens to be owned by the same publishing company.

That's the route I'd like to see TMNT take if they were acquired by another corporate owner; if we're being realistic, "another corporate owner" would most likely mean DC/WB or Marvel/Disney. And DC just has a much better track record at keeping their brands "separate but equal" without constantly needing Superman and Batman to show up in places they don't fit. I get the feeling that if they were acquired by Disney/Marvel, not only would they be watered down for the casuals and all-ages market, and we'd never get anything with "teeth" to it again, but that they'd be crossing over with Wolverine and the X-Men within the first year and way too often after that.

DC is owned by a corporation, but one with more history with putting out all different kinds of content for all different types of audiences. Sometimes, depending on who the creator is, they've even been all but "hands-off" in letting them produce whatever content they want, with very little editorial meddling (or even oversight, sometimes), which occasionally gets them into trouble, but they've generally been a company that, when it comes to producing content, they'd rather apologize and do damage control after the fact if they offend someone, rather than preemptively censor them, as is the habit at other companies. Obviously, the opposite is true at times, but they're generally only heavy-handed when a brand is part of the DCU "proper"; when it's been Vertigo or "Black Label" stuff that's not part of the main line, they've always been extremely hands-off.

If we're ever again going to see a TMNT brand that's even reminiscent in spirit of the Mirage or Image stuff, I strongly feel like DC/WB buying it and giving it the "Vertigo/Black label" treatment would be the only real chance at having it done, and being of consistent quality. It would most likely be a series of mini-series rather than an ongoing, but that might even be for the best as it would let them focus on specific stories and not padding.

But yeah, that's something I'd like to see. It's not something I ever see happening but it's what I see as the Best-Case scenario, at this point. Disney/Marvel is too concerned with pleasing children and not offending anyone, and in big cross-overs and such. I don't think TMNT would even be given a chance to thrive on their own in that environment. Given how quickly they've folded stuff like Supreme Power/Squadron Supreme into their main line in the past, and how domineering their Editorial has been in forcing writers to make decisions that don't sit well either with the creators OR the audience, I just don't think TMNT would be treated well, there, even though there's a lot more resources on their side. DC is my preferred brand anyway, but just looking at how each company has historically handled properties that don't fit into their main universes, I objectively do think that DC/WB would be a much better fit.

Not that I see it happening. But that would be the only way we'd ever escape the "This is strictly a children's property" stigma, as far as I can tell.

[Xav]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

I'd suggest watching the first two, but maaaaybe skip 3 and 4.

It's easy to skip 4 since it doesn't exist.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Leo656

DC's done some interesting things with the He-Man/Masters of the Universe property in recent years. I haven't finished it but I really liked the beginning of the recent "Masters of the Multiverse" mini-series, for example. Much of the material they've published with those books skews darker (extremely so for a licensed property) and is definitely more geared towards fans who grew up with the originals, rather than at kids. And the line isn't "part of" the DC Universe despite being owned and published by DC, and the cross-overs and interactions are kept extremely minimal. It's not like Prince Adam suddenly starts hanging out at the JLA Watchtower; it's a separate universe that happens to be owned by the same publishing company.

That's the route I'd like to see TMNT take if they were acquired by another corporate owner; if we're being realistic, "another corporate owner" would most likely mean DC/WB or Marvel/Disney. And DC just has a much better track record at keeping their brands "separate but equal" without constantly needing Superman and Batman to show up in places they don't fit. I get the feeling that if they were acquired by Disney/Marvel, not only would they be watered down for the casuals and all-ages market, and we'd never get anything with "teeth" to it again, but that they'd be crossing over with Wolverine and the X-Men within the first year and way too often after that.

DC is owned by a corporation, but one with more history with putting out all different kinds of content for all different types of audiences. Sometimes, depending on who the creator is, they've even been all but "hands-off" in letting them produce whatever content they want, with very little editorial meddling (or even oversight, sometimes), which occasionally gets them into trouble, but they've generally been a company that, when it comes to producing content, they'd rather apologize and do damage control after the fact if they offend someone, rather than preemptively censor them, as is the habit at other companies. Obviously, the opposite is true at times, but they're generally only heavy-handed when a brand is part of the DCU "proper"; when it's been Vertigo or "Black Label" stuff that's not part of the main line, they've always been extremely hands-off.

If we're ever again going to see a TMNT brand that's even reminiscent in spirit of the Mirage or Image stuff, I strongly feel like DC/WB buying it and giving it the "Vertigo/Black label" treatment would be the only real chance at having it done, and being of consistent quality. It would most likely be a series of mini-series rather than an ongoing, but that might even be for the best as it would let them focus on specific stories and not padding.

But yeah, that's something I'd like to see. It's not something I ever see happening but it's what I see as the Best-Case scenario, at this point. Disney/Marvel is too concerned with pleasing children and not offending anyone, and in big cross-overs and such. I don't think TMNT would even be given a chance to thrive on their own in that environment. Given how quickly they've folded stuff like Supreme Power/Squadron Supreme into their main line in the past, and how domineering their Editorial has been in forcing writers to make decisions that don't sit well either with the creators OR the audience, I just don't think TMNT would be treated well, there, even though there's a lot more resources on their side. DC is my preferred brand anyway, but just looking at how each company has historically handled properties that don't fit into their main universes, I objectively do think that DC/WB would be a much better fit.

Not that I see it happening. But that would be the only way we'd ever escape the "This is strictly a children's property" stigma, as far as I can tell.

You sound like a man after my own heart. I take it you're a big DC and or Marvel guy/comics reader. If you have as much love and respect for the Big 2 and their history as I do, we should probably get together and go bowling or something, LoL. I've honestly not read modern Marvel or DC consistently since the early 2000s with few exceptions (I'm more of a golden/bronze age/immediate post crisis 90's reader) but I agree with everything you say here since I forgot about DC's tendency to skew darker, especially these days.

Marvel of decades ago, let's say hypothetically, they bought TMNT directly from Eastman/Laird in like 1986, I think they COULD HAVE done wonders with the franchise. These days, probably not. DC, if they bought it tomorrow, might end up treating TMNT the way Image did. I'd be happy with TMNT being given the same tone that Swamp Thing had in the 70's, 80's and 90's. And Vertigo would be the perfect imprint. So yeah, can it be done? Sure. But as you say, it's a pipedream full of wishful thinking at this point.