Mirage comics = Dark and Gritty?

[marcelangelo]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Outside of the first 11 issues, Return to New York, City at War, and a few select Tales issues....then no, the rest of Mirage isn't really dark or gritty.

Volume 2 feels like a Saturday morning cartoon despite some deaths. Baxter becomes a cyborg supervillain, Leonardo fights a fish mutant, the Turtles infiltrate the government who hold alien species captive, etc. The whole arc felt like something out of the 4kids cartoon.

Volume 4 doesn't have anything dark or gritty from what I can remember, it was just PL throwing a million plots to the table at once, none of which were all that interesting. Its not like Don fighting talking dinosaurs or Raph fighting Vampires, or Leo facing Aztec warriors is anything out of the ordinary for the cartoons.

Image is of course an exception, and some of the stronger Tales titles like Rat King's issue and some stuff from the second Tales.

volume 4 had many morbid subjects which I enjoy a whole (s)hell of a lot(excuse the pun)..these things at least to me brought the grittyness back into turtles comics in broad strokes..examples for what I mean are:
-the utroms digging into april and robyn's parents coffins to extract tissue samples
-splinters death and his sea burial..
-mind control between mr bronze and the young fellow that shadow was dating
-the utroms wanting to seize april and accuse her of smuggling in weapons with the foot as security guards..(that was pretty cool)
-april getting a glimpse into her own past and her parents fertility struggles...
not to forget her own shattering experiences..
etc etc etc

[CyberCubed]

The series also kept talking animals to the bare minimum, so there weren't any goofy mutants running around for no reason. I like mutants for the cartoons or stuff like Archie, but in a series like Mirage they really don't work.

Its also the only series where the Turtles use their weapons to kill. Even in IDW they don't do that.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Grimlock

Why do fans of the Mirage comic books choose to describe the Mirage comics as dark and gritty? Does that make them cool? I have recently read through Vol. 1 thanks to the Ultimate Collections and I have to say, the stories were not ''dark''. They were actually pretty lighthearted. And gritty, is that supposed to describe the god awful artwork these ''artists'' put to paper?

What is the appeal of these comics?

I'm actually going to buck the trend and I say I agree with you that the first 11 or so issues of Mirage don't hold up very well. I tend to enjoy them for their pure energy -- you can really tell Eastman and Laird were having fun -- but the presentation, both writing- and art-wise, is still really rough, and the whole thing only barely starts to move out of tongue-and-cheek mode toward the end of that run.

When people say "dark and gritty," I can only imagine it's in comparison to mainstream comics at that time (which were still pretty tame -- not a lot of heroes killing their opponents at that point) and the version of the Turtles that became most popular. Yes, the tone is still whimsical and filled with ninja tongue-in-cheek parodies, but the Turtles still kill their opponents willy-nilly and spend the first issue delivering narration that would make Frank Miller blush, even if, again, it's all delivered with an air of not quite being played straight.

Around issue #19, though, and especially throughout the guest era (depending on who's writing) and Eastman and Laird's return to the series in #50, the book becomes increasing well-written and increasingly somber. I wouldn't call it "dark and gritty" at any point, but it becomes very mature -- willing to handle the morality of its characters, their longing for normal lives, the effects of violence, etc. There's also a lot of comic-booky (or not-so-comic-booky) surrealism. Nothing ends well for the main characters, as a whole. It really starts to knock it out of the park as it goes on.

So, yeah. Just know that there are those of us who will absolutely swear by the vision Mirage presented, but still don't find the first dozen issues to be particularly great. I recommend you jump forward to Ultimate Collections #4 and #5 (it'll take about two seconds of Wiki'ing to get the right background information) and make your assessment from there. The writing is much better on those, and generally more indicative of the direction the series takes for most of its later life.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

ive only read the first issue online, so i cant compare with later issues.

of what i have read, the mirage comics seem to be graphic, but a good read.

love the art style of them

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The series also kept talking animals to the bare minimum, so there weren't any goofy mutants running around for no reason. I like mutants for the cartoons or stuff like Archie, but in a series like Mirage they really don't work.

Its also the only series where the Turtles use their weapons to kill. Even in IDW they don't do that.

I'm fine with mutants as long as they have to hide: No matter if it's in the New York City sewer system, dark Massachusetts farms and woods, Florida swamps or the jungles of South America.

[Davetello]

'Dark and gritty' clearly seems to be something which is 'in fashion' right now. Many people in the entertainment business seem to believe that they can sell anything as long as it's 'dreary' and conveys a sense of foreboding or anarchy. That sort of apprehension is great and all, but it has to be executed well. If the quality is compromised the results will be poor. I do feel at times that 'dark and gritty' is now a cheapskate way to sell any old nonsense.

However, back in the 80s when Eastman and Laird created the turtles, I wouldn't say things weren't really like this. Yeah, we had stuff like the Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen, but they came a few years after TMNT. It certainly doesn't seem like there was the media-wide preoccupation with 'intensity' and 'darkness' that is prevalent now, although I was a kid at the time and I'm not American so I may be mistaken. Regardless, having first read the classic Mirage stuff back in 2007, it really did speak to me. In fact it's what got me interested in comics in the first place. I started off reading the turtles and eventually branched out into superhero material and eventually non-superhero stuff by DC's Vertigo imprint and Image. If it wasn't for the turtles that would never have happened and it's somewhere else that they've influenced my life. Suffice to say I must have really enjoyed the material if it had that effect on me - that's the legacy the Mirage comics hold in my life.

The comics themselves hold up pretty well to me given that they were created in the eighties. I don't pretend to be an expert on comic books by any means, but I enjoy the writing for the most part and the black and white art does appeal to me. I enjoy seeing various artists' take on the turtles' physical form also. Not to be unoriginal, but the City of War arc at the end of Volume 1 is absolutely sensational stuff, in my opinion. The first eleven issues in particular very much appeal to me but that culmination of volume 1 was brilliantly done and Peter and Kevin's desire to get the book back on track after its fragmentation is very much apparent. Resultantly, I don't believe that the original comics are poor quality and rely on their 'darkness' or 'shock value' to appeal. For me they stand up pretty well in 2013, but as I say this is only my opinion and having looked through the thread others clearly don't agree. I can understand why others may think that but for me they're still a great read.

Overall, the internet has made everyone more cynical and media has become so saturated and fiercely competitive that a gimmick like 'grittiness' seems to be the way to a quick buck, as I imply above. In the eighties entertainment wasn't so readily at our fingertips so there was more opportunity to be creative and diverse, and I believe that's probably reflected in the variations of the respective eras.

[shuriken]

Maybe not so dark and gritty as much as introspective and somber with some ridiculousness thrown in?
Plus the guest artists were all so different and cool to see. I loved Sky highway and Juliet's revenge. They had trippy scenery and stories that just really stand out.
Volume 2 is a lot like 2k3, TMNT fighting supervillains. which is cool but it was kinda meh.
Volume 4 started with a lot of steam but in my opinion the lack of payoff sucked.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by whatswiththeheadbands?

ive only read the first issue online, so i cant compare with later issues.

of what i have read, the mirage comics seem to be graphic, but a good read.

love the art style of them

At least some years ago, you could read more early issues online.

[Bry]

Originally Posted by Grimlock

Why do fans of the Mirage comic books choose to describe the Mirage comics as dark and gritty? Does that make them cool? I have recently read through Vol. 1 thanks to the Ultimate Collections and I have to say, the stories were not ''dark''. They were actually pretty lighthearted. And gritty, is that supposed to describe the god awful artwork these ''artists'' put to paper?

What is the appeal of these comics?

The tone definitely varies. The key Eastman/Laird/Lawson stuff definitely earns that "grim & gritty" label, what with harsh/rough style, the bloody ninja battles and the Frank Miller-inspired ultra-violence.

I think that's a part of the Mirage comics' appeal, but not all of it. The series also got surprisingly mature, thoughtful and introspective at times, and the ongoing theme of vengeance perpetuating vengeance (some of us recently talked about this in another thread, actually) is handled very well overall. The characterization also felt more "natural" to me - everyone had a distinct personality and development, but it had a lot more subtlety to it than we're used to from the cartoons.

Really have to disagree about the art quality, though - granted, it was an independent comic and could be a mixed bag at times, but there were some very talented artists in the Mirage stable. Take another look at A.C. Farley, Eric Talbot and Jim Lawson's work at their best - it's really good stuff. And Eastman and Laird were no slouches either.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by shuriken

Maybe not so dark and gritty as much as introspective and somber with some ridiculousness thrown in?

That's about as good a description of post-#11 Mirage as you're going to get.

I also always remember a letter that showed up in one of the Volume 2 issues that called the series "beautiful and sad," which I think more or less holds true, especially during the guest artist, "City at War" and Volume 2 eras.

But yeah, Mirage shifts gears pretty drastically after its early issues.

[Grimlock]

A note on the artwork, Why did they stop using duo-tones on Jim Lawson's pencils? In Vol. 4, I think? The first issue looked great. But when they take away those tones, Lawsons style really suffers. Looks like a coloring book or something.