"Black Widow" solo MCU movie

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

I think one of the reasons Battle Angel Alita got some backlash here and there was the fact that they focused on actually making the best movie they could and adapting the original material without forcing a girl power message or some other political agenda in there.

I'm still very angry that movie didn't do gangbusters. It absolutely deserved to. My daughter loved the crap out of it as well.

[Vegita-San]

I appreciate the support, but don't feed the trolls. easier to put them on ignore so they argue with themselves

[Voltron]

She sure can play whoever or whatever she wants.

That being said, the freedom to portray things extends to all parties involved in creative works.

I wonder if people will lose their minds if they make a black, female James Bond a permanent thing? I mean, the actress has the right to play whoever she wants. . .

[Sumac]

There is a difference between playing historical character and fictional ones.
And fictional characters who have pre-established image.

[TurtleTitan97]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Ohhhhh let's not start that crap. It might shock you guys to know, but it is possible to make a woman led movie that isn't 'rubbing it in the face of males', 'showing the boys how its done' and 'will piss off the fanboys'.

I know that. Doesn't mean I can't still roll my eyes at cringy comments like this.

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Sumac

There is a difference between playing historical character and fictional ones.
And fictional characters who have pre-established image.

Not in the context of the argument, no. If she can play whoever or whatever she wants, then that's what that means.

It's an issue of consistency. If you support her saying this now, then it should extend to everyone, yes? If Whoopi Goldberg is cast to play April O'Neil in the next TMNT film, is that a problem? Obviously, Goldberg looks and behaves nothing like the "pre-established" fictional character. It would definitely be an odd choice, to say the least. But according to Scarlett Johannson, it's just fine.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Sumac

There is a difference between playing historical character and fictional ones.
And fictional characters who have pre-established image.

Some people who claim to want peace, sometimes just want to bait.


Her wanting to play who and what she wants has nothing to do with the Black Widow writer saying she basically just wants to screw the fans of the franchise over. and you know it.

Besides, she should be able to play what she wants. whether that is the right choice for the franchise, or the movie in question is a TOTALLY separate issue.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by Voltron

Not in the context of the argument, no. If she can play whoever or whatever she wants, then that's what that means.

It's an issue of consistency. If you support her saying this now, then it should extend to everyone, yes? If Whoopi Goldberg is cast to play April O'Neil in the next TMNT film, is that a problem? Obviously, Goldberg looks and behaves nothing like the "pre-established" fictional character. It would definitely be an odd choice, to say the least. But according to Scarlett Johannson, it's just fine.

Fair enough.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Voltron

I wonder if people will lose their minds if they make a black, female James Bond a permanent thing?

They can make a black, female 007, but not a black, female James Bond (though let's see them do that and see what happens, lol). The movies don't have "James Bond" as a moniker or a mantle, it's an actual person with a family and family history.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

They can make a black, female 007, but not a black, female James Bond (though let's see them do that and see what happens, lol). The movies don't have "James Bond" as a moniker or a mantle, it's an actual person with a family and family history.

Watch how the next argument will be "it's a fictional person - who cares? (and if you care you are sexist, racist monster)".

This is what you get in society imbued with post-modern / post-truth logic: nothing has meaning anymore, everything can be warped into something else and labels and words don't have any power whatsoever. This is why mere complaint about female character or agenda in the movies, made purely for the money is enough to label you as "nazi".

Of course, it will pass, as soon as critical mass of idiocy will be reached, which I think will be quite soon.

[Voltron]

Again, that's the issue with Johannson's comment:

If she can portray anyone she wants, why not James Bond?

Andrew's logic still holds: James Bond is an established character with a family history. Everyone, even non-fans, have certain expectations when it comes to James Bond.

Fictional characters are important to people. They are attached to childhood memories. They represent cultural values. They can serve as inspiration to be better people. I think the fact that we're having this discussion on a TMNT board is proof enough of that. There's a reason we tell stories.

Changes to those characters can be very upsetting, if not flat out enraging. I think holding true to a character's origin should be important.

If we're talking about Ghost in the Shell, I would've very much like to have seen a Japanese or an East Asian actress in the role. But I'd like to have seen that because it's truer to the character.

I think we can agree with the over all point being made without agreeing with the logic that lead some people there. We can say "I'm not happy with this choice of actor/actress portraying this character" without saying "everyone is a racist, sexist pig except for me".

On the flip-side of this argument, a number of "ginger" characters are being played by black actors. There's been some loons who've been using the exact same arguments as the SJWs to attack those choices. Awhile back, some media personalities had a row over whether or not Santa Claus could be black.

And at that point, you're right. I tend to find myself in the "I don't care" group. Because it's just not that important to me. To me. I could understand how some people might be upset over it. Perhaps some kids managed to figure out the truth about Santa from that information.

My point: arguing these things with cheap reasons like "it's racist" when there's little to no evidence is pointless. It always leads to other debates about some other hot button issue and everything just turns to crap. No body wins anything.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

They can make a black, female 007, but not a black, female James Bond (though let's see them do that and see what happens, lol). The movies don't have "James Bond" as a moniker or a mantle, it's an actual person with a family and family history.

Like I said... She should be able to play anyone she wants. whether or not it's good for the movie, or the movie in question IS the question. as with the above, James Bond is a white male. nothing less, nothing more.

007, on the other hand, is a bit more open to interpretation. although since James Bond has ALWAYS been 007.....it could be like a yankee pinstripe..once the great player retires, the code name is never used again.

[Coola Yagami]

Ghost in the Shell is a different case. Motoko never looked particularly Asian, and Scarjo brought the character to life as much as RDJ brought Tony Stark to life. The creator of the manga approved it. People in Japan see no issue. Scarjo practically IS Motoko in the movie leaping off the pages and brought to life.

IDK what it is, but there's just something in the way Japan draws their characters that when someone portrays them in live action, an actual Japanese person would look like they're cosplaying the character instead of actually being the character. I mean to the average person, Sailor Moon and Light Yagami look white. The Elric brothers are the fictitious version of Germans in their own book, etc.

I mean I don't think we ever got to see Motoko's real body in the series before she was rebuilt as a machine. The movie went the extra mile and showed flashbacks of what Motoko looked like as a human, though that also could have been to shut up the naysayers that never seen the actual series and just wanted to yell 'whitewashing'.

[Sumac]

Ironically Japanese characters looking white is a legacy of the creator of modern anime genre, Osamu Tezuka, who modeled his Japanese characters after characters in Disney movies.

Japanese apparently don't really bother with this - as long as character has Japanese name, he is Japanese, no matter what he looks like. If character is not-Japanese, he will look very different from any other characters in the setting.

[Voltron]

I've heard the same thing.

Although, if you ask people in Japan, anime characters look Japanese. The giant eyes aren't supposed to look European. They're just stylized that way.

I don't know, maybe they're just referring to Shinjuku cosplayers who dress like cartoon characters every day.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Sumac

Ironically Japanese characters looking white is a legacy of the creator of modern anime genre, Osamu Tezuka, who modeled his Japanese characters after characters in Disney movies.

Japanese apparently don't really bother with this - as long as character has Japanese name, he is Japanese, no matter what he looks like. If character is not-Japanese, he will look very different from any other characters in the setting.

No, they just draw people without really thinking about how they look different. That's because in Japan you don't necessarily think of people around you as "Japanese" or "Asian" but as people, it's foreigner who is something of note (sorry if I can't express this better). If you actually look up anime characters who are indeed meant to be white, you'll notice some differences from characters who are meant to be Japanese. Here you have Roy and Hikaru from Macross, take note of how Roy is taller, has more sqaure features, a bigger nose, blonde hair, etc:

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by neatoman

No, they just draw people without really thinking about how they look different.

And this is started with Osamu Tezuka being fan of Disney.

Originally Posted by neatoman

If you actually look up anime characters who are indeed meant to be white, you'll notice some differences from characters who are meant to be Japanese. Here you have Roy and Hikaru from Macross, take note of how Roy is taller, has more sqaure features, a bigger nose, blonde hair, etc:
https://robotechreviewed.files.wordp...5/rick-roy.png

This is what I've said.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Sumac

And this is started with Osamu Tezuka being fan of Disney.


This is what I've said.

Sorry, I must have had a brainfart reading your post. Anyway, still nice to depict an actual example though.

[Redeemer]

Originally Posted by neatoman

No, they just draw people without really thinking about how they look different. That's because in Japan you don't necessarily think of people around you as "Japanese" or "Asian" but as people, it's foreigner who is something of note (sorry if I can't express this better). If you actually look up anime characters who are indeed meant to be white, you'll notice some differences from characters who are meant to be Japanese. Here you have Roy and Hikaru from Macross, take note of how Roy is taller, has more sqaure features, a bigger nose, blonde hair, etc:
https://robotechreviewed.files.wordp...5/rick-roy.png

This is the exact opposite from my experience/observation. My favorite anime is FullMetal Alchemist BrotherHood. The main characters and setting is suppose to be European, but all the characters look just like any other Anime character, except for character who are from "Xing", characters from "Xing" are supposed to be Asian and they exaggerate the eyes by giving the main characters(Ling) squinting eyes.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by neatoman

No, they just draw people without really thinking about how they look different. That's because in Japan you don't necessarily think of people around you as "Japanese" or "Asian" but as people, it's foreigner who is something of note (sorry if I can't express this better). If you actually look up anime characters who are indeed meant to be white, you'll notice some differences from characters who are meant to be Japanese. Here you have Roy and Hikaru from Macross, take note of how Roy is taller, has more sqaure features, a bigger nose, blonde hair, etc:
https://robotechreviewed.files.wordp...5/rick-roy.png

Um, not to nit-pick, but the character is Rick Hunter, and he was hardly Asian. He is shorter because he was a teenager! He even has blue eyes! Hubby is a big Macross/Robotech fan. It's also an American anime. Hikaru is just the name they use in the Japanese version. Minmei and her family are the only major Asian characters!