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Old 02-14-2018, 09:00 PM   #41
dl316bh
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Originally Posted by Leonardo_thebest View Post
So, we have at least two people in the comic industry here then?
Zarius Two and yourself?
No, I was just more plugged in to what was going in in comics for a while and read a lot of the different stuff back when comic websites were healthier.

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I wish dumb, regressive assholes would just find their own media to consume
They consider this their media, though, and don't want to share for reasons. That's the conflict.
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:56 PM   #42
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That's at least a sentiment that, while I don't agree with, I can relate to. What I don't understand is how all of these obviously well read fanboys can so easily ignore the history of the medium.

To actually believe the thesis that Comics are only now espousing a political viewpoint, is to ignore the very history of superhero comics itself.

Captain America punching Hitler. Heck, even Raphael punched Hitler.
The very existence of the X-Men themselves.

I get the frustration, because I feel it too, but I disagree on what the problem is. We have too many people making editorial decisions based on profit margins and not on storytelling. Exec's want more bang for their Buck coming out of the gate, and they're not willing or patient enough for a Slow Burn.

It's like Fox cancelling show after show because they don't manage to capture the lightning-in-a-bottle The X-Files did in the first five episodes.
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There's no sense catering just to one demographic which is idiotic.
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just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
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Old 02-15-2018, 12:22 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by plastroncafe View Post
That's at least a sentiment that, while I don't agree with, I can relate to. What I don't understand is how all of these obviously well read fanboys can so easily ignore the history of the medium.

To actually believe the thesis that Comics are only now espousing a political viewpoint, is to ignore the very history of superhero comics itself.

Captain America punching Hitler. Heck, even Raphael punched Hitler.
The very existence of the X-Men themselves.
Because, it was too long ago and for most people those characters and events as fictional as those comic book characters.

This is the same reason why some people don't see OT Star Wars trilogy as political, despite it being commentary about Vietnam War.

Because, who gives a **** about Vietnam War nowadays? No-one.
It's just "something that had happened long time ago from history books". So naturally, for people who never lived through this time, relevancy of the commentary is lost.
Because, it's hard to put yourself on the place and time of the past. Current Status Quo is the only thing people know right now and it's hard to see how it was several decades ago.
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Old 02-15-2018, 12:41 AM   #44
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Is punching Hitler really a political thing, though? Like, political statements can be disagreed with. Who doesn't think Hitler should be punched in the face?
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Old 02-15-2018, 12:49 AM   #45
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In America today?
A lot more people than I'm strictly comfortable with.

I realize that being from the tail end of Generation X that maybe my experiences aren't quite as common place as the rest of my online cohort, however my parents were alive and drafted for the Vietnam War. I have family members still suffering the effects of post-traumatic stress from the Vietnam War.

If the people behind ComicDorf are ignoring tangible aspects of history, that at most they would only have to ask their parents or grandparents about and for some inexplicable reason haven't done that, then why is anyone entertaining anything they have to say in the first place?
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So your wants and needs as a fan should outweigh everyone else's?
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just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:05 AM   #46
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Is punching Hitler really a political thing, though? Like, political statements can be disagreed with. Who doesn't think Hitler should be punched in the face?
The problem here is that Hitler was "nerfed" to the point where he is thought to be more of a historical meme.

When most people think of Hitler, they don't think of him as "real person", or rather they don't comprehend him as a "real person", they think of him in vein of a comic book villain. And because of that when Hitler is involved, it's less about some issues and more about using some evil dude from the past. Message is lost due to mythologization. Or rather "memezation".

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If the people behind ComicDorf are ignoring tangible aspects of history, that at most they would only have to ask their parents or grandparents about and for some inexplicable reason haven't done that, then why is anyone entertaining anything they have to say in the first place?
Most kids just see their memories of their parents as rumbling of old and confused people.
And I don't think a lot of them will ask about this stuff, because, of that reason.
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:26 AM   #47
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Because, who gives a **** about Vietnam War nowadays?

(sorry, I couldn't resist)

But for real, I agree. Lessons learned by society get lost in the annals of history, and even in their heyday they don't reach every group of people.

People can live in the same place at the same time and be in two totally different worlds
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:07 AM   #48
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Okay, let's assume that this is all the case, what's the best course of action to reach these Hit List building kids?

Because my knee-jerk reaction is to ignore them, but given that I live in Boston, the birthplace of GamerDorf, I know first-hand that ignoring them leads to future threats of harm and violence.
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So your wants and needs as a fan should outweigh everyone else's?
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There's no sense catering just to one demographic which is idiotic.
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just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:08 AM   #49
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Would there be a hit list of creators if they didn't engage these people the way they do?

I guess Waid attempted to have this "Diversity & Comics" guy banned from a con?



Some butthurt creators have reduced themselves to the level of the worst trolls, and that's what's kept the conflict alive. They weren't hired to virtue signal on Twitter and Facebook; they were hired to write and draw comics.
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Mirage [is]...a comic about life and how life and the people closest to you just absolutely suck sometimes. It's "adult" in a very real sense, in that it deals with heavy themes that resonate more with adults, not that it's full of blood and titties or whatever.
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[TMNT 1990 director Steve] Barron recognized the early Mirage issues as perfect storyboards. It's a shame no other filmmaker has.
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:23 AM   #50
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Yes, I think there would be.
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So your wants and needs as a fan should outweigh everyone else's?
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There's no sense catering just to one demographic which is idiotic.
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just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:41 PM   #51
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Worth noting threats, death or otherwise, have increased a lot, especially these days with the influx of minority talent, so if you're wondering why comic personalities are getting more combative, there you go.

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Is punching Hitler really a political thing, though? Like, political statements can be disagreed with. Who doesn't think Hitler should be punched in the face?
White supremacists. Neo-Nazi's. Alt-righters. Wolfenstein II came out very recently and some of them came out of the woodwork to get upset about it, because Nazi killing.

http://www.newsweek.com/nazi-video-g...-slogan-679530
https://www.forbes.com/sites/curtiss.../#189d72f02554

Great game, by the way. I really appreciate it for taking a hard look at the past and America at the time and how a good portion of the country might have reacted if we'd lost, even if it's dressed with crazy Nazi mechs and airships. It got a little more real than I expected and had something to say.

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Would there be a hit list of creators if they didn't engage these people the way they do?
Oh yeah, there would be. But I've looked into the thing more since yesterday, and the reasons the list is compiled is laughable. Sitterson's on there because he's a New Yorker, from New York City, who was living in NYC on 9/11, who snarked about people who get up their own ass about their "suffering" over the day when they live thousands of miles away. Johnston because he reported on these lists and harassment campaigns targeting creators. The rest are there simply because they promote a "SJW" agenda and not anything in particular they said, which explains Kelly Sue - I'm sure Bitch Planet didn't go over well with them - and probably Fraction. Larry Hama's probably on there because he made a new Snake Eyes who isn't a man.

So, you know, now having that context, f*** 'em.
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:29 PM   #52
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Is punching Hitler really a political thing, though? Like, political statements can be disagreed with. Who doesn't think Hitler should be punched in the face?
As luck would have it he punched himself in the face with a Walther PPK so everyone can relax.

I could put forward a case as to why I disagree with a comic book character punching Hitler, but it wouldn't really be a political thing so much as a question of good taste. Hitler and his cronies caused so much pain and suffering that including him in a cheese-ball superhero comic feels a bit crass to me.

It's also a tiny bit pathetic. It's easy to write 'invulnerable muscle-man punches Hitler', while you’re sitting in a plush chair, drinking coffee, and listening to Spotify. In reality, Hitler jaw was beyond the reach of the average person, and posturing as though you would totally knock him out is a little bit disrespectful to the people who died trying, and the people who died and suffered because they were powerless to do anything. We are powerless to do anything. Hitler died before we were born – we cannot effect the outcome, and dreaming about doing so is just an impotent, self-aggrandising power fantasy.

You could also argue that it is very important to remember history as it actually happened – especially catastrophic events like the world wars. That old line about “Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it” is pertinent here. The problem is that once we start fictionalising history, the facts and the fantasy start to blur together. There are a lot of lessons to be learned from WWII; about failures of politics, economics, communication… and it’s very complex. Nobody’s going to learn anything reducing it down to ‘an evil guy and his minions tried to take over the world and we kicked their asses! Oh and buy the way I heard that he had supernatural powers and invented UFOs!!!’
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Old 02-17-2018, 12:14 PM   #53
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The problem here is that Hitler was "nerfed" to the point where he is thought to be more of a historical meme.

When most people think of Hitler, they don't think of him as "real person", or rather they don't comprehend him as a "real person", they think of him in vein of a comic book villain. And because of that when Hitler is involved, it's less about some issues and more about using some evil dude from the past. Message is lost due to mythologization. Or rather "memezation".


Most kids just see their memories of their parents as rumbling of old and confused people.
And I don't think a lot of them will ask about this stuff, because, of that reason.
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As luck would have it he punched himself in the face with a Walther PPK so everyone can relax.

I could put forward a case as to why I disagree with a comic book character punching Hitler, but it wouldn't really be a political thing so much as a question of good taste. Hitler and his cronies caused so much pain and suffering that including him in a cheese-ball superhero comic feels a bit crass to me.

It's also a tiny bit pathetic. It's easy to write 'invulnerable muscle-man punches Hitler', while you’re sitting in a plush chair, drinking coffee, and listening to Spotify. In reality, Hitler jaw was beyond the reach of the average person, and posturing as though you would totally knock him out is a little bit disrespectful to the people who died trying, and the people who died and suffered because they were powerless to do anything. We are powerless to do anything. Hitler died before we were born – we cannot effect the outcome, and dreaming about doing so is just an impotent, self-aggrandising power fantasy.

You could also argue that it is very important to remember history as it actually happened – especially catastrophic events like the world wars. That old line about “Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it” is pertinent here. The problem is that once we start fictionalising history, the facts and the fantasy start to blur together. There are a lot of lessons to be learned from WWII; about failures of politics, economics, communication… and it’s very complex. Nobody’s going to learn anything reducing it down to ‘an evil guy and his minions tried to take over the world and we kicked their asses! Oh and buy the way I heard that he had supernatural powers and invented UFOs!!!’
All great points, I guess in a way it would be comparable, if 50 years or so, comic books including punching out Osama Bin Laden.

...And it's no wonder why older generations mock and criticize the sensitivity, shallowness, and arrogance of younger generations, when the first 2/3s the 20th century experienced unprecedented enormous political, social, and economic instability and change, with Laissez-faire industrialization (no workers' rights or safety protocols) and monopolization of the Gilded Age, World War 1, the Russian Revolution/Civil War, The Dust Bowl, The Great Depression, the rise of Nazi Germany in the 1930s, World War 2, the Chinese Civil War, the Communist regimes of the USSR (i.e with Stalin in the Great Purge) and of China (i.e. the Cultural Revolution in China), and the Cold War era.

That period experienced hundreds of millions of casualties, and a cumulative magnitude of suffering (individual and societal) that is inconceivable for generations of today.
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Old 02-17-2018, 12:28 PM   #54
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I think Hitler has only become a boogey man of some long forgotten age for people who weren't really directly affected by his regime.

But I don't think it's wrong to say that the average American doesn't share that cultural memory, which is pretty much how similar levels of authoritarianism and cultural supremacy have been allowed to once again take root.
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There's no sense catering just to one demographic which is idiotic.
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just ignore what you don't like rather than obsessing over it and move on with your life.
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Old 02-17-2018, 12:43 PM   #55
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This is why in Norway 9th graders goes on school trips to Poland to visit Auschwitz. And in my home city we've kept a building named the Archives intact and restored to how it looked during the occupation, it's a building the Secret Police used to imprison and torture people.
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Old 02-18-2018, 04:53 PM   #56
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This list is about 5 days old. It's been expanded apparently.
I'm surprised Kate Leth wasn't in that list to begin with, given what I've heard about her.

Anyway, this article is pretty relevant to the Comicsgate debacle.
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It was definitely not a kid's book.
That was the thing that always mystified me about the turn the franchise took when Eastman and Laird licensed the cartoon and the parallel comic book published by the same outfit that gave us Archie. The turtles' original origin story? The whole thing hinges on a for-Christ's-sake rape-murder!!!!
from here.
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:21 PM   #57
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I think Hitler has only become a boogey man of some long forgotten age for people who weren't really directly affected by his regime.
And how many of those directly affected still alive?
Aside from Jews and Germans, for whom it's more personal than for anyone else, of course.

Even Russians think of WW2 more in line of some fantasy tale, which not in the least helped by modern Putin's propaganda.

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But I don't think it's wrong to say that the average American doesn't share that cultural memory, which is pretty much how similar levels of authoritarianism and cultural supremacy have been allowed to once again take root.
American supposed "authoritarianism" is similar to Nazi Germany? What!?
Another Lefty bulldang and fear-mongering.

Some people are lacking perspective so much...
If you want real authoritarianism, go to North Korea. Or even Russia.
In general, this talk about "American authoritarianism" seems like a fear-mongering and overreaction of fragile lefties, because, in America someone dare to have different opinion from you. Which, ironically enough, makes you authoritarian, not a country.
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Old 04-02-2018, 11:36 AM   #58
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In-depth article on Comicsgate: https://amp.thedailybeast.com/comicsgate-how-an-anti-diversity-harassment-campaign-in-comics-got-uglyand-profitable
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Old 04-02-2018, 11:28 PM   #59
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Interesting, but I'd suggest some alternative titles...
  • 'Comicsgate: How an anti-diversity harassment campaign in comics got ugly and profitable... for online journalists'
  • 'A case study in declining editorial standards'
  • 'The clash of people with too much time on their hands'.

I confess that I have no skin in this game, so perhaps from the perspective of a comic book fan it is an important discussion and I'm being flippant. Sorry if that's the case, but this whole thing just seems like bull bating to me. Publishers thought they could resuscitate a dying industry by causing controversy, and new media opportunists found a way to needle the mob and exploit it for a quick buck. I find it difficult to believe that any of these parties actually believe in what they're selling.
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Old 04-02-2018, 11:50 PM   #60
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Interesting, but I'd suggest some alternative titles...
  • 'Comicsgate: How an anti-diversity harassment campaign in comics got ugly and profitable... for online journalists'
  • 'A case study in declining editorial standards'
  • 'The clash of people with too much time on their hands'.

I confess that I have no skin in this game, so perhaps from the perspective of a comic book fan it is an important discussion and I'm being flippant. Sorry if that's the case, but this whole thing just seems like bull bating to me. Publishers thought they could resuscitate a dying industry by causing controversy, and new media opportunists found a way to needle the mob and exploit it for a quick buck. I find it difficult to believe that any of these parties actually believe in what they're selling.
Never underestimate the power of human fanaticism.
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