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Old 02-15-2018, 12:55 PM   #21
AquaParade
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What is happening now that it seems like there are so many school shootings?

I mean we have always had mental illness. We always had weapons. A person in the 1970s could have easily murdered an entire classroom with two pistols. Or used a hunting rifle as a sniper. If itís because itís always in the news and encourages copies I ím not sure if I accept that because TV, radio and news papers have been popular for decades.

So what is going on? Is it really because of access to weapons, mental health and media?
That's the million dollar question.

I would probably agree with anyone who thinks we need to make guns less accessible. Though I'm also not naive enough to think that will stem the problem by itself.
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Old 02-15-2018, 12:58 PM   #22
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That's the million dollar question.

I would probably agree with anyone who thinks we need to make guns less accessible. Though I'm also not naive enough to think that will stem the problem by itself.
I couldn't tell you what the gun laws are in the other 49 states, but I'm OK with the rest of the country adopting the same pretty tough laws we have here in WA. I'm told it's one of the toughest.

Beyond that? No. Try spanking your kid once in a while, don't worry about what guns I have.
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Old 02-15-2018, 12:58 PM   #23
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Something my old shrink used to say was that Anger, righteous grounded anger, is the force by which we overcome obstacles.

This is different from rage, which is unfocused destruction for the sake of destruction.
Being, and getting, angry isn't the problem. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being emotional and having emotions.
In my opinion that's just an easy way for an unaffected person to shut down someone who was/is legitimately wronged.

I'm not saying that's always the case, just that it's an easy course of events to adopt.

There is nothing inherently more virtuous in the person who doesn't appear to be angry.
Or being emotionally non-invested in a thing.
And culturally...American Masculinity has prided, and damn near defined itself, as lacking outward emotions.
I think that's a mistake.

Raph isn't a rolemodel. Neither is Wolverine.
Or Tony Soprano, or Walter White.

They're all monsters in their own way.
But they're not monsters for getting angry.
They're monsters because they do don't anything productive with their anger.

They're just bigger toddlers not using their words.
Oh, I'm not actually advocating for Vulcan lack of emotion or saying that anger itself is unnatural or wrong. But what is it and why is it? What do we choose to do with it or because of it?

From my perspective, American Masculinity disavows all positive emotions and yet fetishes anger. Mexicans, gays, blacks, liberals, women... far easier to rage at them or fester in bitterness than look at ourselves and ask "Is the problem maybe me? And should I change something about myself to resolve this problem?"

That's what I see a lot of down here, anyway.
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Old 02-15-2018, 12:59 PM   #24
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Lets Stop worrying about Muslims and Minorites and worry about these crazy white kids with mental issues who are part of Alt Right groups.
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:02 PM   #25
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I think that's the big thing TurtleWA, no one knows. People blame gun culture, but that's been around for years, people blame media showcasing it, or even movies and videogames glorifying it, but those have been here part of the public sphere for a bit, too. Maybe it's a combination of both, maybe it's a 3rd issue...it's not a simple black and white thing. We can't see inside someone's head. What would make one person find a place to be alone and cry and find some constructive outlet could prompt a different person to choose to take a gun to school. Maybe better and less stigmatized mental health programs could help? I dunna...
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:05 PM   #26
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My armchair answer is that there are some men who don't know how to man, because they've never had to think about what makes a man before.

In short, what makes now different from then is the combined culture shift brought on by the Women's and Queer Rights movements.

With rigid gender roles one didn't have to THINK about what makes a man or a woman, because the culture just told you. Men do this. Women do this. And so long as a man didn't do something considered female, he was pretty much okay.

But that line started to blur in the 60s and 70s and onward.
I remember being told in the 80s that if a man had an earring "Left was right, and Right was wrong." Because having an earring in your right ear meant that you were gay. And that...that was almost the worst thing a man could be. Because gay dudes were basically women.

Don't throw that ball like a girl.
Don't cry like a girl.
Don't run like a girl.

All boys had to be was...not a girl.
Well...if girls know how to do all these things for themselves, what's left for boys to be?

So from where I'm standing the issue is that we've got a bunch of guys who don't know where they stand. They're anxious, and they're lashing out.
I don't think this isn't a mental illness issue, I think it's a cultural one.

Someone needs to define Masculinity as something it is, rather than relying on what it's not.

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Oh, I'm not actually advocating for Vulcan lack of emotion or saying that anger itself is unnatural or wrong. But what is it and why is it? What do we choose to do with it or because of it?

From my perspective, American Masculinity disavows all positive emotions and yet fetishes anger. Mexicans, gays, blacks, liberals, women... far easier to rage at them or fester in bitterness than look at ourselves and ask "Is the problem maybe me? And should I change something about myself to resolve this problem?"

That's what I see a lot of down here, anyway.
I agree entirely.
And when I see the phrase Toxic Masculinity, that's what I think of.
Not that Masculinity is in and of itself toxic, because...it's not, but there are people practicing a weaponized fundamentalist version of it that are doing a whole lot of damage.
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:09 PM   #27
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You know, I think I know why people who have mental health issues don't bother to get any help from society at large. Subsequently, I now know why people who are physically, psychologically, mentally, emotionally, and/or intellectually different from the norm tend to be one of the most discriminated against.

It all has to start with the prejudice, discrimination, and bigotry online and offline. Using ableist terminology to describe people who are neurodivergent (or who are otherwise differently abled). Mocking an individual's intelligence by using an extremely biased measurement of intellect (the I.Q. system). Bullying and outright manipulating people by exploiting and controlling their perception of reality. Taking advantage of them by forcing them to do whatever you want. Making light of physical and emotional self-harm or otherwise encouraging it. Demonizing them by making them feel unloved and unwanted. Making them feel uncomfortable by using their descriptions in an unsavory manner. Making them feel that it's somehow wrong to be different from what's considered "normal".

I know that we tend to have a biased perspective of our reality; I know that we all have a skewed moral perception that creates our own knowledge, which can, in turn, lead to a "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude. However, it's honestly disgusting that our society can stoop to this sort of low.

Shame on everyone who doesn't bother to accept, respect, and care about our fellow human beings (or really, any living being/ organism). Shame on everyone for doing nothing to stop these sorts of tragedies from happening.

To Autbot_Benz: Being discriminatory again, I see.

But then again, I didn't expect better from you.

Just please, take your unfiltered bigotry elsewhere, please! It's too repulsive, honestly. I couldn't even bother to quote your comments!

-----------------------------------------------

I would like to give my apologies and condolences to the individuals who were personally affected by this tragedy. Not one single person in the world deserves to lose their friends/ loved ones like this.

I would also like to apologize on behalf of people who make light of/ on topics such as these.

(To anyone who is different physically, psychologically, mentally, emotionally, and/or intellectually, there is nothing wrong with you. You are who you are, which is perfectly fine. Despite what others may think of you, know that you are not flawed because you don't fit in dominantly.)

Have a good day.

Last edited by Papenbrook; 02-15-2018 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:16 PM   #28
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Oh, I'm not actually advocating for Vulcan lack of emotion
Or to put another way... there's Vulcans... and then there's the Vulcans who embrace Kohlinahr. Probably don't be like the latter.
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:18 PM   #29
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You know, I think I know why people who have mental health issues don't bother to get any help from society at large. Subsequently, I now know why people who are physically, psychologically, mentally, emotionally, and/or intellectually different from the norm tend to be one of the most discriminated against.

It all has to start with the prejudice, discrimination, and bigotry online and offline. Using ableist terminology to describe people who are neurodivergent (or who are otherwise differently abled). Mocking an individual's intelligence by using an extremely biased measurement of intellect (the I.Q. system). Bullying and outright manipulating people by exploiting and controlling their perception of reality. Taking advantage of them by forcing them to do whatever you want. Making light of physical and emotional self-harm or otherwise encouraging it.

I know that we tend to have a biased perspective of our reality; I know that we all have a skewed moral perception that creates our own knowledge, which can, in turn, lead to a "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude. However, it's honestly disgusting that our society can stoop to this sort of low.

Shame on everyone who doesn't bother to accept, respect, and care about our fellow human beings (or really, any living being/ organism). Shame on everyone for doing nothing to stop these sorts of tragedies from happening.

To Autbot_Benz: Being discriminatory again, I see.

But then again, I didn't expect better from you.

Just please, take your unfiltered bigotry elsewhere, please! It's too repulsive, honestly. I couldn't even bother to quote your comments!

-----------------------------------------------

I would like to give my apologies and condolences to the individuals who were personally affected by this tragedy. Not one single person in the world deserves to lose their friends/ loved ones like this.

I would also like to apologize on behalf of people who make light of/ on topics such as these.

Have a good day.
I am not a bigot you easily triggered dunce. I was stating if we actually put as much effort with mentally unstable white guys who get guns and shoot up schools than about minorities some of this could be prevented. Now go back to your safe space and think before you say something

also we need to get rid of the AR 15 gun that was the one used in this and other shootings
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:21 PM   #30
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Or to put another way... there's Vulcans... and then there's the Vulcans who embrace Kohlinahr. Probably don't be like the latter.
Sure! And don't be the Vulcan security agents from Enterprise who were bombing Andoria and hiding their crap in a monastery...
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:25 PM   #31
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So, how many more mass shootings before we start cracking down on men with a history of violence?

Kid was already identified by the school as a potential threat; he wasn't allowed on campus with a gun; other students said he had already been labeled as a probable shooter.

So... are we ever going to take this seriously?
Nothing's happening under this administration, so three to seven years. That goes for anything from gun control to mental health. The latter's just not an agenda with the current government - hell, they'd love to make it harder for anyone to get affordable anything in health care - and the former's always a crapshoot no matter what administration or political party you have. Sooner or later something is going to give, though, but what shape that takes is the question.

I realize that's a depressing answer to the question, but there's hope that, long term, something will change. Even if it's the very long term, but talking about that would take an hour.

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The Associated Press‏Verified account @AP

BREAKING: Leader of white nationalist group has confirmed suspect in Florida school shooting was member of his organization.
Yup.

http://uproxx.com/news/nikolas-cruz-...alist-militia/

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Seems the source for that Allu Akbar Instagram was some shotty reporting from Infowars.
Even if it wasn't Infowars - I wouldn't believe them if their tongues were notarized - I'd have been dubious until it was absolutely confirmed. Certain outlets still try to push that whenever any shooting happens to the point I don't believe it until proven otherwise, just because there are still a lot of places that don't do enough due diligence until after the fact.
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:34 PM   #32
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Nothing's happening under this administration, so three to seven years. That goes for anything from gun control to mental health. The latter's just not an agenda with the current government - hell, they'd love to make it harder for anyone to get affordable anything in health care - and the former's always a crapshoot no matter what administration or political party you have. Sooner or later something is going to give, though, but what shape that takes is the question.
I don't think we need this administration to be involved in a solution.
Don't get me wrong, it'd be great to have their support, but...this is all stuff we could ostensibly combat on our own, within our own communities.

I was saying to someone else earlier today, I don't think people who don't know about a subject should be writing legislation about that subject. Regardless of subject. People who don't know the science aren't qualified to legislate on matters of science, and people who don't know about firearms are ill-equipped to legislate about firearms.

Any change from the Gun Fandom is going to have to come from within.
Just like any change that's going to come from American Masculinity is going to have to come from American Men.

This is their cue.
The stage is theirs.
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:36 PM   #33
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Oh, I'm not actually advocating for Vulcan lack of emotion or saying that anger itself is unnatural or wrong. But what is it and why is it? What do we choose to do with it or because of it?
Anger is the surface emotion so often a primary/core feeling is what is felt immediately before we feel anger. At least that’s what people say right. It could never hurt to help children as young as possible start to recognize these core feelings and learn to process them. Very interesting stat if true. “98 percent of the attackers experienced or perceived a major loss prior to the attack.”

https://www.campussafetymagazine.com...statistics-us/
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:37 PM   #34
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To Autbot_Benz:

Are you sure? You sure do act like one most of the time. I shouldn't be surprised, however.

Honestly, do you get your jollies off of tragedies like this? Are you really this selfish and entitled?

Wait, ... nevermind. I already know the answer.

To Everyone else:

Please, stop making this about you. Stop making this about your own personal views of reality and society.

Now's not the time.
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:38 PM   #35
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To Everyone else:

Please, stop making this about you. Stop making this about your own personal views of reality and society.

Now's not the time.
I respectfully disagree, now is exactly the time.
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:40 PM   #36
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Any change from the Gun Fandom is going to have to come from within.
Just like any change that's going to come from American Masculinity is going to have to come from American Men.

This is their cue.
The stage is theirs.
All right, step aside... not on board with arming the teachers with a gun in a biometric lockbox in each classroom? Fine. Trained, armed guards in the schools, mandatory 2 at each doing constant sweeps of the perimeter. Let's get on it (nobody will, by the way, things will just be locked in a "Gun Control" stalemate with discussion that doesn't solve anything... the "Gun Fandom" will be blocked at every end from any solution that doesn't involve "let's take away more guns").

"But Columbine had armed guards... and 13 people died there!" <--- is a popular sentiment.

And that's true. But they invariably saved a ton more.

A chance at saving lives vs. an absolute, 100% certainty of sky's-the-limit casualties when gunmen are let to roam school hallways uncontested while the police are still 20, 30 minutes away from even beginning to mount an offense... I don't think it's even a question.
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:44 PM   #37
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All right, step aside... not on board with arming the teachers with a gun in a biometric lockbox in each classroom? Fine. Trained, armed guards in the schools, mandatory 2 at each doing constant sweeps of the perimeter. Let's get on it (nobody will, by the way, things will just be locked in a "Gun Control" stalemate with discussion that doesn't solve anything).

"But Columbine had armed guards... and 13 people died there!" <--- is a popular sentiment.

And that's true. But they invariably saved a ton more.

A chance at saving lives vs. an absolute, 100% certainty of sky's-the-limit casualties when gunmen are let to roam school hallways uncontested while the police are still 20, 30 minutes away from even beginning to mount an offense... I don't think it's even a question.
Cool.
How are you going to fund that?
And how are you going to fund the insurance for that. Because I'll be honest, a bullet fired from a gun used to protect me will injure me just as much as one fired at me to harm me. So you can be assured I'll be suing the pants of anyone I can to cover the costs of my medical bills.
And...when do those changes appear on your actual platform, when you actually run for political office?
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:50 PM   #38
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To Everyone else:

Please, stop making this about you. Stop making this about your own personal views of reality and society.

Now's not the time.
If not now, when?

Your "thoughts and prayers" are far more useless than debating an issue that isn't going away and trying to devise solutions.

We have the power of the vote. If we are not informed, we cannot vote for solutions and people who push said solutions.

So tell us, Purple Kraken... when?
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:50 PM   #39
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Cool.
How are you going to fund that?
And how are you going to fund the insurance for that. Because I'll be honest, a bullet fired from a gun used to protect me will injure me just as much as one fired at me to harm me. So you can be assured I'll be suing the pants of anyone I can to cover the costs of my medical bills.
I agree there'd need to be insurance for that, probably on a federal level. That is one raise to taxes I would be happy to pay. No one could expect a student catching an accidental bullet to just be a "whoops!"

Much better than the alternative: "I sure hope that gunman doesn't pick my classroom door to kick in!" Because then you're dead for sure, not even a chance to hope to get accidentally winged by a security guard. Unless you're this man.

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Old 02-15-2018, 01:52 PM   #40
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I agree there'd need to be insurance for that, probably on a federal level. That is one raise to taxes I would be happy to pay. No one could expect a student catching an accidental bullet to just be a "whoops!"

Much better than the alternative: "I sure hope that gunman doesn't pick my classroom door to kick in!" Because then you're dead for sure, unless you're Neo.
As a Federal tax? No, I'm not willing to pay that unless gun laws are leveled across the states. Unless that happens it should be a state by state endeavor.
If that's something that could happen, then maybe it should be under the National Guard's jurisdiction.
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