TMNT #121 preview and discussion

[Bahamut810]

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

Sorry, but while you're technically right regarding her inclinations, I don't think that's it. At least not for me personally. I loved and still love Sailor Moon, which is firmly shojo, just as much as I loved and still love Dragon Ball, the most famous shonen manga/anime ever. And I don't think Campbell could write Sailor Moon either. She has no grasp of conflict, by which I mean the drive behind a story and not punch-kick-punch conflict, making her ideal for slice-of-life, one-off stuff but not for a longform run like this and especially not a longform run of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Im basing my faith in her agility to write 'shoujo' on the good things I read about her Jem run, compared to what I have seen so far from her later TMNT comics. I don't think she has the mindset to write Sailor Moon or Magic Knights Reyearth (more action oriented), but I feel that she could write stories more akin to Ouren Host Club (old school), Fruits basket or Komi cant Communicate (new school) with some skill based on that. The most important thing about this though is that the target audience is EXTREMELY DIFFERENT then almost any shonen.

[neatoman]

Yeah no, sorry. This isn't matter of genre, just quality. If you don't want to write action you still have to write some kind of a conflict and write the characters with some consistency, for example you can have a love triangle and explore how the characters react to jealousy. Any story needs to have intrigue and be believable in some way, this run has failed at both.

[Andrew NDB]

I suspect there is a portion of people out there reading comments like these and going, "Nice! Exactly the right people are getting angered by this! This is a win!" and this kind of discourse being some kind of a "hah! The desired effect... achieved!" If that makes sense. Well, I hope nobody is saying or thinking this that I respect, but what can you do.

But I have no idea. And I'm not angered. I respect IDW TMNT as I do any of the universes that have persevered. I'm not, like, debating with anyone about why can't Rise of the TMNT be closer to what I'd be into... because why would I? In the case of IDW they wouldn't be on issue #121 if people weren't buying it and into it.

[hypered1]

Bahamut810 does have the right idea though and it's kind of sad that people here just can't seem to accept or understand that they aren't the target audience anymore and that's nothing to do with Sophie's writing style; her writing is following what she's being dictated to write by the shot callers at Nick/Viacom - not being able to do more to Hob or even kill him off is proof of this: his eyepatch being knocked off was a subtle tease to whether Raph would take out his good eye, but turn the page and Raph just stabs him through the shoulder.
We know Sophie wanted to do more - she has said as much herself.

Long story short IDW/ Nick aren't making this comic for you guys they're making it for a very different audience, an audience who are enjoying it and want more of it.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by hypered1

her writing is following what she's being dictated to write by the shot callers at Nick/Viacom - not being able to do more to Hob or even kill him off is proof of this

I can't fathom how being told she couldn't do something is proof that she is being told exactly what to write. Admittedly, though, there are a lot of "funny things" that have been going on with IDW TMNT in the past couple of years. Enough to make me wonder what's going on there and if Nick/Viacom is, in fact, meddling in ways they never did pre-#100s.

Also, the last time this came up absolutely nobody could offer up any shred of evidence that it was anyone at Nick/Viacom who told Sophie "no" about Hob being killed and not, say, just Bobbie in editorial on the ground level.

[hypered1]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I can't fathom how being told she couldn't do something is proof that she is being told exactly what to write. Admittedly, though, there are a lot of "funny things" that have been going on with IDW TMNT in the past couple of years. Enough to make me wonder what's going on there and if Nick/Viacom is, in fact, meddling in ways they never did pre-#100s.

Also, the last time this came up absolutely nobody could offer up any shred of evidence that it was anyone at Nick/Viacom who told Sophie "no" about Hob being killed and not, say, just Bobbie in editorial on the ground level.

Admittedly we have only Sophie's word on this so far, but I don't see what would be gained by anyone if it wasn't true and at any rate it doesn't change the fact that the target audience has changed and people need to learn to accept that which they have no control over - no amount of whining or complaining from a small corner of the internet ever changes anything.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Originally Posted by hypered1

Bahamut810 does have the right idea though and it's kind of sad that people here just can't seem to accept or understand that they aren't the target audience anymore and that's nothing to do with Sophie's writing style; her writing is following what she's being dictated to write by the shot callers at Nick/Viacom - not being able to do more to Hob or even kill him off is proof of this: his eyepatch being knocked off was a subtle tease to whether Raph would take out his good eye, but turn the page and Raph just stabs him through the shoulder.
We know Sophie wanted to do more - she has said as much herself.

Long story short IDW/ Nick aren't making this comic for you guys they're making it for a very different audience, an audience who are enjoying it and want more of it.

This is not an argument and people need to stop using it. The target audience for TMNT has not changed. The writing for this comic has. It would be one thing if this was an entirely different series- a slice of life manga, perhaps. One where there was no expectation that it would cater to our interests. But this is a pre-existing property that appeals to a specific demographic. They don't get to just come in and change the target audience, and then say "it's not for you." I'm sick of hearing this sentiment be used to hijack series after series. It is for us, and if their writing no longer appeals to the people it's for, then it's just bad writing. There are certain expectations of what TMNT is, and right now, IDW's TMNT is not meeting them, and is therefore doing a bad job at being a TMNT comic.

[mrmaczaps]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

This is not an argument and people need to stop using it. The target audience for TMNT has not changed. The writing for this comic has. It would be one thing if this was an entirely different series- a slice of life manga, perhaps. One where there was no expectation that it would cater to our interests. But this is a pre-existing property that appeals to a specific demographic. They don't get to just come in and change the target audience, and then say "it's not for you." I'm sick of hearing this sentiment be used to hijack series after series. It is for us, and if their writing no longer appeals to the people it's for, then it's just bad writing. There are certain expectations of what TMNT is, and right now, IDW's TMNT is not meeting them, and is therefore doing a bad job at being a TMNT comic.

Fvcking this all day. Right there.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by hypered1

Admittedly we have only Sophie's word on this

In which nowhere did she say "Nick/Viacom told me no" but just a "I was told no." By who? By Nick/Viacom and not, say, the editor of the book? Why would we jump to automatically assume it's Nick/Viacom? I mean, it might be, though Nick/Viacom really don't have any stakes in Old Hob. It's far more likely it would just be Bobby saying no, given his and Tom's invested interest in the character.

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

This is not an argument and people need to stop using it. The target audience for TMNT has not changed. The writing for this comic has. It would be one thing if this was an entirely different series- a slice of life manga, perhaps.

Maybe. I'm looking at the posts debating about which kind of "ouren" or "shooju" manga style the book is trying to approximate and I'm kind of mentally going, "Eh. Who gives a sh** about this? It just needs to be good and tell a good story with rounded characters with character arcs" at the end of the day, not being beholden to one made up manga style over another.

[hypered1]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

This is not an argument and people need to stop using it. The target audience for TMNT has not changed. The writing for this comic has. It would be one thing if this was an entirely different series- a slice of life manga, perhaps. One where there was no expectation that it would cater to our interests. But this is a pre-existing property that appeals to a specific demographic. They don't get to just come in and change the target audience, and then say "it's not for you." I'm sick of hearing this sentiment be used to hijack series after series. It is for us, and if their writing no longer appeals to the people it's for, then it's just bad writing. There are certain expectations of what TMNT is, and right now, IDW's TMNT is not meeting them, and is therefore doing a bad job at being a TMNT comic.

Last I checked it's not up to you or anyone else on here to decide who the target audience are, but thank you for magnificently proving my point.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Maybe. I'm looking at the posts debating about which kind of "ouren" or "shooju" manga style the book is trying to approximate and I'm kind of mentally going, "Eh. Who gives a sh** about this? It just needs to be good and tell a good story with rounded characters with character arcs" at the end of the day, not being beholden to one made up manga style over another.

I wasn't meaning that in terms of thinking that the writing is trying to emulate any specific kind of manga. I was just using that as an example of a different type of story that had different kinds of expectations as to what it would be, in contrast to TMNT which comes with expectations by virtue of what it is, and how they currently aren't being met. Slife of life manga was just the first thing I thought of, since it's usually on the complete opposite side of the storytelling spectrum compared to TMNT.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Originally Posted by hypered1

Last I checked it's not up to you or anyone else on here to decide who the target audience are, but thank you for magnificently proving my point.

Ah yes, the old "Ha, you've proved my point!" argument, wherein you make no counterargument and then declare that you've won. Brilliant strategy.

And I didn't decide the target audience. Eastman and Laird did when they created the property. If you fall outside of even the most basic parameters of TMNT, then you're just doing a bad job.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by hypered1

Last I checked it's not up to you or anyone else on here to decide who the target audience are, but thank you for magnificently proving my point.

Whatever that means. Though while we can debate the quality of the writing and all of that in matters of taste... you DO notice that the goal posts have moved, right? I mean, I haven't read the book for several years now (because long ago I did what you suggest when I figured out pretty early on I wasn't the target audience) but I can plainly see it is a radically different book from what it was in #1, or even #20. People that liked those early issues, there's a high likelihood they wouldn't be on board with what things are now, or even vice versa.

[hypered1]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

And I didn't decide the target audience. Eastman and Laird did when they created the property.

And now it's Nick/ Viacom's decision who the target audience is; this isn't still 1984 and most people are very different these days.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Whatever that means. Though while we can debate the quality of the writing and all of that in matters of taste... you DO notice that the goal posts have moved, right? I mean, I haven't read the book for several years now (because long ago I did what you suggest when I figured out pretty early on I wasn't the target audience) but I can plainly see it is a radically different book from what it was in #1, or even #20. People that liked those early issues, there's a high likelihood they wouldn't be on board with what things are now, or even vice versa.

And that's exactly my point. Does anyone here really think that if the powers that be were concerned with the opinions of the members of this forum that they would allow the current run to continue as it has? Of course they wouldn't. They aren't concerned because middle-aged white dudes aren't the demographic they're aiming for anymore, they want younger fans who are open to lgbtq ideals and that is their choice.

I'm sorry if it upsets anyone but that's the truth.

[lonewarrior20]

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/teen...2022-tmnt-idw/

looks like we're getting the punk frogs in a few issue's, so can we please stop with the damn pissing contest? yes, some people hate the current run and some of us like it, lets leave it at that. i mean my god, we just keep arguing in a circle of madness, myself included. i mean look at us, the turtles have more humanity, honor, and discipline than us and they're fiction.

[ChosenOne]

"Muh target audience has changed!", which is why I suppose The Armaggedon Game is brewing in the background of Campbell's entire inconsequential fanfic run - which will likely be undone or ignored as soon as she's done anyway - while she spins her wheels and keeps Waltz's seat warm...

Originally Posted by lonewarrior20

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/teen...2022-tmnt-idw/

looks like we're getting the punk frogs in a few issue's

Knowing Campbell, watch them be mutant West African frogs.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

"Muh target audience has changed!", which is why I suppose The Armaggedon Game is brewing in the background of Campbell's entire inconsequential fanfic run - which will likely be undone or ignored as soon as she's done anyway - while she spins her wheels and keeps Waltz's seat warm...



Knowing Campbell, watch them be mutant West African frogs.

I love how, after all the complaints about how the TMNT feel like guest stars in their own book, that now they don't even get the cover title. It's poetic, really.

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

I love how, after all the complaints about how the TMNT feel like guest stars in their own book, that now they don't even get the cover title. It's poetic, really.

Mind you, this could have been an intriguing and even exciting gimmick. But definitely not so under current circumstances, however.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by lonewarrior20

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/teen...2022-tmnt-idw/

looks like we're getting the punk frogs in a few issue's, so can we please stop with the damn pissing contest?

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by hypered1

they want younger fans who are open to lgbtq ideals and that is their choice.

Never mind, of course, that those "ideals" have f*ck-all nothing to do with TMNT and shouldn't have become the book's entire raison d'etre. Or that bending over for the Tumblristas and Twitter Twats is generally a sign of a failing brand desperate for relevance.

There's nothing wrong with exploring LGBTQ characters and themes. Most people here support that stuff, at least to some degree. What they don't like is that they went to bed one day and when they woke up, a book abut the TMNT was suddenly 110% about a bunch of self-insert OCs making kissy-face and talking about protests and government overreach and a bunch of hyper-political stuff that most of the TMNT audience doesn't want to read about. And that there was hardly any transition at all, on top of it.

A book called "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" should ostensibly focus on them, and this book doesn't. They barely factor into anything anymore. People are RIGHT to be annoyed about that.

But nah, they're just a bunch of misguided old people, sure. Not at all that they feel like they wasted their time, money, and emotional investment on what's become a massive bait-and-switch that doesn't even follow through on the resolution of its own plotlines.

Here's an idea to see just how many people give a sh*t about this Zootopia Fanfic sh*t: Switch the title of the book to something more honest, like "Adventures in Mutant Town - Guest-Starring the TMNT", and see if it goes six months without being cancelled. I don't think it would.

As for "trying to reach a new audience", if they're trying to make money then catering to a vocal minority of people who don't even buy comics UNLESS said comics are all about a bunch of Mary-Sues and their same-sex adventures... probably isn't the safest horse to back. They'd probably make more money catering to the 20,000+ people who all dropped the book post-100, rather than hitch their wagon to the sub-10,000 who stick around due to Battered Wives' Syndrome.

Basically, if they don't feel like the existing fanbase is still their priority... they should. You can't trade SJW Brownie Points for currency, and ignoring your existing audience to try and create a brand new one never, ever, ever works. They're NEVER going to replace all the people who stopped buying the book post-100, it's just not gonna happen.

Metaphorically-speaking, they gave up the chance to play stadiums because they'd rather make nickels playing to people in tiny dives. Not a good business strategy.