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Old 05-18-2007, 10:28 AM   #41
Tigershard
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I would also like to give my thanks for your hard work. When I go and re-read the entire series myself I will make sure to refer to your time line to keep things straight, and avoid some of the horrendous issues that made their way into vol. 1.
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Old 05-18-2007, 07:01 PM   #42
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Didn't Peter Laird say that the three-part "The River" from Volume 1 wasn't in continuity?
It has to be. There's flashbacks to the events of "The River" in the Lawson/Laird/Eastman "Sons of the Silent Age."
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Old 05-18-2007, 07:02 PM   #43
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There's every reason to believe the TMNT are 13 in Vol. 1 #1, not 15.
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Old 05-18-2007, 07:21 PM   #44
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In #1, Splinter had trained the Turtles for 13 years. Fifteen years before the night the Turtles encountered the Purple Dragons Shredder killed Hamato Yoshi, shortly after which Splinter and the Turtles came in contact with the ooze.
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Old 05-18-2007, 07:31 PM   #45
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Yeah. I think that during the first 2 years, Splinter was not able to train them much in Ninjitsu. He was busier teaching them how to walk and talk and keeping Raph and Mikey from straying too far away.
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Old 05-18-2007, 07:31 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Roseangelo View Post
In #1, Splinter had trained the Turtles for 13 years. Fifteen years before the night the Turtles encountered the Purple Dragons Shredder killed Hamato Yoshi, shortly after which Splinter and the Turtles came in contact with the ooze.
We don't know how long Splinter was running around after Yoshi was killed. Horribly simplifying all the evidence, but the main point is that it was "Three years ago I saw you die!" to Shredder in "Return to New York," and we know the TMNT are still only 16 (into 17) during "City at War." They could only have been 13 in #1.
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Old 05-20-2007, 02:23 AM   #47
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We don't know how long Splinter was running around after Yoshi was killed. Horribly simplifying all the evidence, but the main point is that it was "Three years ago I saw you die!" to Shredder in "Return to New York," and we know the TMNT are still only 16 (into 17) during "City at War." They could only have been 13 in #1.
Whoa, I'm gonna have to ask Dan about that one. (That is an important detail...)

BTW, anyone else think that this thread OUGHT TO BE STICKIED?
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Old 05-20-2007, 03:41 AM   #48
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Whoa, I'm gonna have to ask Dan about that one. (That is an important detail...)

BTW, anyone else think that this thread OUGHT TO BE STICKIED?
Which detail?

Vol. 1, #21 Leonardo to Saki : "Three years ago I saw you die!"

Vol. 1, #59 (City at War) : (the lettercol) "Yes, the Turtles are [now] 16. The chronology is based on issue 48 picking up sometime shortly after issue 21 and 'Return to New York' left off."
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Old 05-20-2007, 06:27 AM   #49
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Sticky this thread! Sticky this thread!!!
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Old 05-20-2007, 08:40 PM   #50
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It has to be. There's flashbacks to the events of "The River" in the Lawson/Laird/Eastman "Sons of the Silent Age."
I mentioned the exact same thing in another thread. I love The River. Reread it again a few days ago, it still makes me want to cry when April says "No baby, not this time." Laird would have to elimate an entire page of Lawson's artwork to get rid of the SofSA reference.

As for Leo's "I saw you die 3 years ago," doesn't it say in issue 1 that the TMNT are only 13 when they first "kill" Shredder.

Yes, sticky this thread!
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Old 05-20-2007, 08:44 PM   #51
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As for Leo's "I saw you die 3 years ago," doesn't it say in issue 1 that the TMNT are only 13 when they first "kill" Shredder.
Not directly, apart from Splinter remarking he's trained them for 13 years. Still, they pretty much have to be 13 in it from the other evidence, then 16 in Return to New York and into City at War (turning 17 at some point during City at War, as it spans an entire year).
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Old 05-20-2007, 08:53 PM   #52
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Where exactly does it say that they are 16 when City at War starts?
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Old 05-21-2007, 12:28 PM   #53
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In TMNT #1 it says that it took a year for them to grow to their current size, and after that an unknown amount of time passes before the TMNT start walking and talking, it is then they start the 13 years training.

The TMNT are AT LEAST 14 in Vol. 1#1, although I would guess they are almost 15 based on later events.

Regardless they are 15 1/2 in TMNT Vol. 1 #4-7. Then they have their first X-Mas (Mikey special)

It's a year later (they actually say it's their second real X-Mas) in the Leo special where Shredder returns. They would be around or just over 16 1/2 by this point.

A year later again they return to NY and kill Shredder (aged around/just over 17 1/2). (Therefore the TMNT being just over 14 1/2 or just under 15 is the closest to the 3 years you'll probably be able get, they certainly can't be 13 in Vol. 1 #1 for that statement to be true)

City at War runs from just under a year after that to just over a year after that (I worked it out at October to March at one point but I;d have to finf my notes for all the detailed reasons why) with Karai at one point saying it's been about a year since Shredder died. So the TMNT would 18, probably pushing 19 by the end of that story arc.

That's going off events in the comics themselves, not letter cols. The only thing in the comics that would contradict this is them turning 18 at the start of the Image comics but they're non-cannon anyway so that doesn't matter.

The one page referencing The River can easily be removed and have no affect on the rest of "Sons of the Silent Age", I think that's what Laird will do when he reprints it.
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Old 05-21-2007, 01:51 PM   #54
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In TMNT #1 it says that it took a year for them to grow to their current size, and after that an unknown amount of time passes before the TMNT start walking and talking, it is then they start the 13 years training.

The TMNT are AT LEAST 14 in Vol. 1#1, although I would guess they are almost 15 based on later events.

Regardless they are 15 1/2 in TMNT Vol. 1 #4-7. Then they have their first X-Mas (Mikey special)

It's a year later (they actually say it's their second real X-Mas) in the Leo special where Shredder returns. They would be around or just over 16 1/2 by this point.

A year later again they return to NY and kill Shredder (aged around/just over 17 1/2). (Therefore the TMNT being just over 14 1/2 or just under 15 is the closest to the 3 years you'll probably be able get, they certainly can't be 13 in Vol. 1 #1 for that statement to be true)

City at War runs from just under a year after that to just over a year after that (I worked it out at October to March at one point but I;d have to finf my notes for all the detailed reasons why) with Karai at one point saying it's been about a year since Shredder died. So the TMNT would 18, probably pushing 19 by the end of that story arc.

That's going off events in the comics themselves, not letter cols. The only thing in the comics that would contradict this is them turning 18 at the start of the Image comics but they're non-cannon anyway so that doesn't matter.

The one page referencing The River can easily be removed and have no affect on the rest of "Sons of the Silent Age", I think that's what Laird will do when he reprints it.
You've obviously done your homework, too, but I personally try to take everything in Vol. 1 at its word until we're told otherwise by Laird. But your points are equally valid.

About the lettercol in the middle of City at War :

TMNT Vol. 1, #59: (response in lettercol) "Yes, the Turtles are [now] 16. The chronology is based on issue 48 picking up sometime shortly after issue 21 and 'Return to New York' left off."

So we kind of have to work backward from that.
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Old 05-21-2007, 05:23 PM   #55
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I agree on "The River", it's not on the continuity lists given out, but it is referenced in "Sons of the Silent Age". I personally think he'll just remove the page, but until those works are re-published then I agree that Laird hasn't made his final say and it's open to debate (plus it doesn't hurt continuity either way).

I agree take everything in the comics at its word, but I place more importance on the events in the comics than the answers in the letter col. Here the timeline within the story shows that the age given in the letter answer is wrong.

Yes there was a lot of manipulating dates within the comics to fit with real time (I think the Shredder's return has been listed at 1987 and 1988, and if you work it out based on the new dates provided by Tales Vol. 2 regarding the TMNT's age then it's something like 1986!) but if you go just by events in the comics then what I posted above is how it works out.

The only thing I can't work out now is how the TMNT are 12 in 1981 (Tales Vol. 2 #1) and 16 in 1987 (Tales Vol. 2 #33, backup). It just can't work out. I could understand it in Vol. 1 as they were trying to keep up with real time, but now they're adding back stories and working to Peter Laird's timeline so that shouldn't be an issue. I'm tempted to say 12 in 1981 is the true date as it was written by Murphy rather than a guest writer who most likely used the old Vol. 1 issues for his dates rather than an official timeline (still a a very cool story though).
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Old 05-21-2007, 07:22 PM   #56
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Can see how I kind of rectify the dates vs. ages on this page :

http://www.ninjaturtlesempire.com/ttime.html
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Old 05-22-2007, 01:23 AM   #57
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They are cool timelines and I appreciate the amount of work you put into them.

But dates aside, the TMNT are still at LEAST 14 in Vol. 1 #1 based on 1 year growth and 13 years training (plus an unknown amount of time where they started walking and talking).
They are 15 1/2 in Vol. 1 #4-7, which makes them about 16 1/2 when Shredder returns the following Christmas and 17 1/2 for the events in ROTY. That's going not off dates (which we both agree in Vol. 1 were changed every year almost to keep up with real time) but off dialogue in the comics saying how long it had been from one event to the next. Mikey and Leo are both set at Christmas and are set a year apart, it doesn't matter which year that is, it still puts the TMNT around 16 1/2 when Shredder returns as they were roughly 15 1/2 in Mikey (which came soon after Vol. 1 #1-7 which said they were 15 1/2).

The only way around that is to say Mikey and Leo specials are the same year, which would put them at 16 1/2 for RTNY, but this idea is contradicted in the Leo special which clearly states that it's their second real Christmas (ie second Christmas above ground where they can actually take part in the festivities more) and both are set on Christmas eve.
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Old 05-22-2007, 10:03 PM   #58
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Sticky anyone?
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Old 05-26-2007, 10:04 PM   #59
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I would say that Bodycount #1-4 takes place between the Raphael one-shot and #10 of Vol. 1... Casey mentions in #10 he was a bouncy at a place called Torchy's and threw guys out bigger than Shredder -- I think we SEE that in Bodycount.
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Old 05-27-2007, 12:26 PM   #60
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My problem with placing Bodycount that early in the timeline is that it introduces Casey's "star spangled hockey mask", which he only ever uses again in the Image series. I'd like to think it takes place a little closer to the Image series than that (though it would have to take place before Casey tried to hook up with April, since he's macking on that mob chick throughout the whole story).

Also, added "Road Hogs" to the timeline. Thanks!
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