Why were some people so sure about *Spoilers* death?

[Powder]

I'm gonna need ointment for that burn, oh boy.

[Jester]

Good grief...do I have to clean this thread AGAIN?

Insighter stop living up to your name and let it go. It may, in you opinion, have been a bad idea, but it was an actual idea early in production.

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

Exactly Ciro's original vision for the series was that Splinter had just passed on at least a few days prior to the beginning of the show. Confused over what they should do following the death of their Sensei they travel to the surface and meet April. And she becomes the surrogate thing they cling to. This isn't to say Splinter wouldn't be present in their lives, he would be...but only through their memories and visions.


Nick studios rejected the idea because they felt that where ever Splinter was, was home.

Powder clearly stated this:

Originally Posted by Powder

Ciro wanted to start the series off with Splinter dead, so the notion of his passing was obviously a significant one to his creative vision, at least at one point. Pairing that with the fact Splinter had a canon death in Mirage it most definitely sets a precedence.

It's been documented; I've been meaning to hear Andrew's podcast for a while but I'm a lazy dolt. There was an interview with Ciro with Splinter's death as a question. If I find it, I'll edit it and include a link below.

Originally Posted by TMNTInsighter

POWDER! WAKE UP!
This is not a show where people can just be killed off (with the exception of Tang Shen being this series'/franchise's Uncle Ben) and Ciro knows full well...as should anyone else! Anything around those lines said by Ciro or some wishful fans can't be accepted as gospel truth! And yet I had to sit and read throughout all that time between AE and Season 4a about all this fan-circulated BS?! THAT IS A JOKE AND SO ARE YOU! "It's bad enough I have to deal with you South Carolinians in person every day, I can't catch a break online either." PFFFT! GIVE ME A DAMN BREAK! IF YOU'RE IMPLYING THAT YOU LIVE IN SC TOO, LET'S EXCHANGE ADDRESSES SO WE CAN START THROWING DOWN BECAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE ASKING FOR!

Calm down; I'll throw my hat in the ring for a moment. Look, if you were under the microscope yourself, your anger would screw you over and I don't feel talking tough is going to get you anywhere. I've got nothing against you at all even with our previous differences, now relax. Got it? Now then:

As Powder mentioned, Splinter was originally supposed to be dead in this series but it was rejected.(I don't know the reason at this time). A user here named Andrew runs a podcast with a few other members; Ciro was one of the guests on it about a year or two ago. Here's the post if you don't believe us, the link is hyperlinked on the word "here":

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/sho...&postcount=104

Need I remind you Tennet was confirmed for 13 episodes as Fugitoid, then as shown it was the whole space arc even if a few were minor appearances to cameos? Clearly Splinter's lack of presence was what it was: a concept, but rejected. Nobody's saying it's "gospel" in terms of reality, but it offers a what-if scenario if that were fully fleshed out.

If this discussion is going to be destroying opinions, then somebody lock this thread or clean it out so we can try doing it fresh one more time. I do have stuff to say, but wanted to address the irrationality.

[TMNTInsighter]

Ciro also said once that Tiger Claw has a future outside the Foot Clan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCtxWTkJbq0) but not only has it not happened but he wasted his best chance with ELS. Whatever his case is, you can't take anything the guy says seriously!

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by TMNTInsighter

Ciro also said once that Tiger Claw has a future outside the Foot Clan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCtxWTkJbq0) but not only has it not happened but he wasted his best chance with ELS. Whatever his case is, you can't take anything the guy says seriously!

Tigerclaw is, in essence, a hitman for the Foot Clan. He is aware the Shredder's morals are questionable and motives are crazed. But hit men characters don't bring their own personal morals about a target when an employer tells them to perform a hit. Be it a political figure or the sweet old grandmother down the street.

To them, it is just another job. They make their kill, they get paid, and then they wait for their next assignment.

The only time Tigerclaw ever really questioned the Shredder's sanity was in A:E. because the Shredder had forsaken Earth simply for the chance to settle his grudge with Splinter.

Whereas at the end of ELS Splinter's death and earths destruction is prevented so Tigerclaw's loyalty isn't put into question.

Tigerclaw is more likely to turn sides during the Human's vs. Mutants arc particularly if Mutants are being rounded up and imprisoned. So perhaps a moment where Tigerclaw is overpowered by the EPF and Shredder just walks away as though he has lost nothing of value.

[TMNTInsighter]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

.....
The only time Tigerclaw ever really questioned the Shredder's sanity was in A:E. because the Shredder had forsaken Earth simply for the chance to settle his grudge with Splinter.

.....

Tigerclaw is more likely to turn sides during the Human's vs. Mutants arc particularly if Mutants are being rounded up and imprisoned. So perhaps a moment where Tigerclaw is overpowered by the EPF and Shredder just walks away as though he has lost nothing of value.

1) Actually, TC has shown moments of questioning Shredder in "The Invasion I" and "Return to New York" (and to some minor extents "The Invasion II" and "Vengeance is Mine") as well JSUK.
Both "The Invasion", "Return to New York", and "Annihilation Earth" were written by Brandon Auman so it was very surprising that he dropped his chance with ELS. Think of it this way, if Tiger Claw was witness to the goings on between Shredder and Splinter the first time, why not here? Even if Nieli or Auman argued that he was only witness to the final result instead of the actions themselves both times, there's still no doubt he's cheated out of development there.
2) Even if they were to go that route, and unless they do it spectacularly, it's too late because that was it! It was their chance! Doing it now, even soon, would be a lot like Slash's turn to a complete hero which was horribly handled after the great episode that was "Slash and Destroy." Where that episode was perhaps the most psychological episode this series has produced, "Newtralized" didn't come close to that and wrapped up Slash's vendetta vs the team very quickly. Then "Battle For New York" totally bombed his character by going with Raph's misguided belief in S&D that the mutagen made him go temporarily crazy...anybody who remembers the first 5 1/2 minutes of S&D knows that that wasn't the case.

[Ninturtle]

Originally Posted by TMNTInsighter

Ciro also said once that Tiger Claw has a future outside the Foot Clan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCtxWTkJbq0) but not only has it not happened but he wasted his best chance with ELS. Whatever his case is, you can't take anything the guy says seriously!

Are you serious? The show hasn't ended, just because you think it'd be appropriate for TC to leave the Foot Clan in that episode doesn't mean it won't happen in a later episode. I really shouldn't have to explain this to an adult.

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by Ninturtle

Are you serious? The show hasn't ended, just because you think it'd be appropriate for TC to leave the Foot Clan in that episode doesn't mean it won't happen in a later episode. I really shouldn't have to explain this to an adult.

^^^ This. Now, to get back on topic after everything that's transpired:

To answer the original question, I certainly knew this was going to be reversed. Annihilation: Earth! and I really don't get along too well; I consider it a decent episode overall but in comparison to my first viewing when I adored it, I don't care for it as much. Several reasons for it that take away the overall quality in terms of story despite it's grand scale at that point in the series although over the top with Earth's fate in finales.

If I were to guess the reasoning people assumed Splinter died, I'd personally say it'd be so the show can expand on. Besides the Karai plotline and going feral in Return to New York, he hasn't been as important this time, especially compared to 2. Additionally, consider that Hoon Lee, the voice of Splinter was on Broadway in The King and I at that time; said death wrote him out for his obligations. Believe me, I can tell you that as an aspiring actor at school, it's very time consuming. Also, it's like Power Rangers: Dino Thunder where Tommy Oliver was frozen and then stuck in morph form. That was due to Jason David Frank, Tommy's actor, wanting to return to America to be with his family but recorded lines regardless.

If Splinter were killed, the show could finally prove itself as returning to darker roots previously established. However, considering the overall delivery of the death's aftermath, it really didn't amount to anything primarily. You can make an argument with Transdimensional Turtles influencing Earth's Last Stand but I find it a bit of a stretch. Also, since reversing time in most time travel media often results in horror, that's another reason.

I can come up with several "what-ifs" but that's the general idea.

[Aaronardo]

Originally Posted by TMNTInsighter

Ciro also said once that Tiger Claw has a future outside the Foot Clan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCtxWTkJbq0) but not only has it not happened but he wasted his best chance with ELS. Whatever his case is, you can't take anything the guy says seriously!

Buddy, it doesn't matter what you think is a good idea or a bad idea in this case. Ciro said that Splinter was going to start off the show dead. Last I checked, Ciro was the one credited as "Producer." Not you. It's his show. Not yours. He pitched it. Not you. It was a scrapped idea. It went kaput. It never made it to the final product because Nickelodeon didn't allow it. You might not think it was a good idea, but like it or not, it's what Ciro said, and he is a very vocal producer for the show (he's been there since the very beginning).

And as for Tiger Claw, his story is indeed coming full-circle in Season 5 (granted, that's just speculation, but with Japan and possibly the Ninja Tribunal being the subject for the beginning of the season, they'd be pretty stupid not to bring Tiger Claw in).

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Wow. Somebody needs to get back on his meds asap. Seriously, his mother needs to pay more attention to what her little cupcake is doing.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

People like such dark science fiction-stories, like Archie's Future Shark and 2003 series' "Same as it Never Was".

[TMNTInsighter]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Wow. Somebody needs to get back on his meds asap. Seriously, his mother needs to pay more attention to what her little cupcake is doing.

Excuse me but the only one who's been using common sense on this thread is me! If everybody else, including yourself, valued it as much as I do then almost everyone on this thread would be taking the necessary medication for it. Common sense rocks. I use it, you don't, that's the problem! Get on the meds!

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by TMNTInsighter

Excuse me but the only one who's been using common sense on this thread is me! If everybody else, including yourself, valued it as much as I do then almost everyone on this thread would be taking the necessary medication for it. Common sense rocks. I use it, you don't, that's the problem! Get on the meds!

You're not prone to violence, whether against yourself or others, are you?

[TMNTInsighter]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

You're not prone to violence, whether against yourself or others, are you?

Only if they ask for it or deserve it. Isn't that enough?

And if you read our back and forth, Powder was certainly asking for it. Not only did he start having a fit over my opinion but he went on to insult where I live, myself, my friends, my family, etc. you bet he was asking for it. Another tried to use my name in a perverse way against me. This is all unacceptable and I will not stand for it! You're damn right it's enough.

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by TMNTInsighter

Excuse me but the only one who's been using common sense on this thread is me! If everybody else, including yourself, valued it as much as I do then almost everyone on this thread would be taking the necessary medication for it. Common sense rocks. I use it, you don't, that's the problem! Get on the meds!

Hold it right there on the ego and attitude. In addition to throwing that verbal attack to Powder last night, this was also posted last night:

Originally Posted by TMNTInsighter

Ciro also said once that Tiger Claw has a future outside the Foot Clan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCtxWTkJbq0) but not only has it not happened but he wasted his best chance with ELS. Whatever his case is, you can't take anything the guy says seriously!

You brought up time travel before, but it's clear that due to history getting altered in Earth's Last Stand, why would Tiger Claw react how he did in Annihilation: Earth? Subtly or not, it doesn't make sense because of what occurred with Splinter fighting back that time instead of.. you know. I acknowledge your points on Tiger Claw questioning loyalty though, but throwing out what we've brought up as uncommon knowledge and your behavior is where the line is drawn. (I honestly question how long until we actually see this thread locked at this point)

[TMNTInsighter]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

Hold it right there on the ego and attitude. In addition to throwing that verbal attack to Powder last night, this was also posted last night:



You brought up time travel before, but it's clear that due to history getting altered in Earth's Last Stand, why would Tiger Claw react how he did in Annihilation: Earth? Subtly or not, it doesn't make sense because of what occurred with Splinter fighting back that time instead of.. you know. I acknowledge your points on Tiger Claw questioning loyalty though, but throwing out what we've brought up as uncommon knowledge and your behavior is where the line is drawn. (I honestly question how long until we actually see this thread locked at this point)

Exactly! ELS was a failure with its horribly calculated plot contrivances among other things (TC, the introduction of the Devastator, timing of revelation, overall timing, etc). Usually something can have enough redeeming features to compensate for it, but there's no way ELS was better than a C (on a scale of A-F) as far as ratings go.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by TMNTInsighter

Only if they ask for it or deserve it. Isn't that enough?

And if you read our back and forth, Powder was certainly asking for it. Not only did he start having a fit over my opinion but he went on to insult where I live, myself, my friends, my family, etc. you bet he was asking for it. Another tried to use my name in a perverse way against me. This is all unacceptable and I will not stand for it! You're damn right it's enough.

Please, dear boy, keep up what you're doing. The sooner you're banned, the better.

[TMNTInsighter]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Please, dear boy, keep up what you're doing. The sooner you're banned, the better.

In your dreams!

[Aaronardo]

Originally Posted by TMNTInsighter

Exactly! ELS was a failure with its horribly calculated plot contrivances among other things (TC, the introduction of the Devastator, timing of revelation, overall timing, etc). Usually something can have enough redeeming features to compensate for it, but there's no way ELS was better than a C (on a scale of A-F) as far as ratings go.

Earth's Last Stand was garbage. We all know this. It's episodes like that which make me give up hope for the show. Doesn't change the way you were acting (and the fact that the point you brought up is wrong, as perfectly explained by GoldMutant).

Honestly, though, on the subject of horrible episodes of the show, I can't even watch any Season 1 episodes anymore without taking pity on the show as a whole. Man, this show could've been the sh*t had it kept doing what it was doing, but nope. Change of writers. How unfortunate.

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Please, dear boy, keep up what you're doing. The sooner you're banned, the better.

Banned? This is the funniest sh*t I've seen all day.

[Ninturtle]

Originally Posted by TMNTInsighter

Only if they ask for it or deserve it. Isn't that enough?

And if you read our back and forth, Powder was certainly asking for it. Not only did he start having a fit over my opinion but he went on to insult where I live, myself, my friends, my family, etc. you bet he was asking for it. Another tried to use my name in a perverse way against me. This is all unacceptable and I will not stand for it! You're damn right it's enough.

Well aren't you a sensitive little fella, a sensitive little fella who's fooled himself into thinking he's acting somewhat rational in this thread when everyone else knows he's insane.