So what happens with the next virus?

[Leo656]

If people can't collectively and unanimously decide that no "civilization" needs to encourage either manufactured plagues OR eating raw and rabid animals for kicks, then "civilization" doesn't deserve to survive, anyway.

Past that, I don't have any easy answers. I know what *I* would do, but again, my view of humanity is always very grim even on a good day and I know most people would think it was "too far".

I've said this before and I'll say it again: I think everybody's "guilty", I don't believe in "Good Guys", and frankly, we've all overstayed our welcome on this rock. Some people would say Mutually Assured Destruction sounds like a horror movie, whereas I'd say it was a deserved and fitting end for ALL mankind.

But then, I'm not a very upbeat person. So please try and bear that in mind.

[Voltron]

There's thinking the worst, and then there's insisting on the worst.

If there's no motive, it's near impossible to make the accusation stick.

Also, if you're arguing for self-extinction, it sounds like you're projecting your own desires onto the "super-villains". As a species, our sense of self-preservation is too strong to gather en masse and end things. At least, not a country of a billion strong all going along with the idea.

As for "civilization", China is one of the oldest kids on the block. Everyone has their own form of country bumpkin or backwards weirdo who doesn't fit into larger society. There's not a lot we can do about that.

[Leo656]

You can spank 'em. But again, I am aware that is "mean". It's still arguably what should've been done a long time ago, "mean" or not.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

It is interesting, though, that the virus is juuuust lethal enough (as in, basically just killing obese people or immuno-compromised people or the very old) to cause a pandemic lockdown to devastate the economy (what you-know-who could always point to as flourishing under his watch, previously) and forcibly taking jobs away from people, forcing them to rely on the government's teet and getting them used to that. Because all of this really seems to create very favorable conditions for one very vocal side of the country.

I'm not even suggesting something nefarious. I just find it very interesting.

It's very "interesting".

Those People want to be free to go wherever they want whenever they want, but YOU can't, because "You're killing the planet" every time you leave the house. So suddenly, you're not allowed to leave your house unless it's an emergency. They can even fine or arrest you. As always, The Ruling Class are exempt. They can even get their hair done! But not you.

Those People walk around without masks unfettered and even gather en masse if they feel like it. But YOU can't be allowed to or else you might unwittingly kill a bunch of people. Funny how that works.

Those People have been braying for months and years about creating a society where "If you don't want to work, you just plain don't have to" and they'll just pay you to sit at home. And when people ask how that could ever be feasible, Those People say, "Well it's the government's job to find a way to make that happen." And they'd talk about "What If" scenarios in which people had no CHOICE but to stay home, and wouldn't it be nice if the government just kept sending them free money? And then out of nowhere, right in the middle of the debate at its most heated, one of these "What If" scenarios magically comes to pass, and Those People all get to say "See? THIS is exactly what we were talking about!"

And let's not forget, a billion-dollar mask industry springs up overnight. And how they keep changing the mask rules. That one that worked just fine last week is useless now. You probably infected Grandma and didn't even know it; she seems perfectly fine, but you NEED to get this newer, better more expensive mask now, just to be safe.

ALL of this happens at once, and the timing of it compared to the timing of certain debates and discussions is... "convenient".

I strongly, strongly believe that there is NO such thing as coincidence.

Thus, the timing of all of these events happening at once and nudging things towards a path that Those People have been swearing for years that they'd get to happen no matter what, well... again, as you said, Andrew... it is very, very "interesting".

Especially since Their Guy Barry O. sold China those virus samples in the first place back when he was the guy in the Big Boss's Chair. "Allegedly". Whoops?

"Interesting" indeed.

It's not ALL about Those People and it's not ALL about China, but there's a lot of parallel things going on that are tangentially connected and it all seems to be in service of very specific means to an end for both parties. For China, it was about population control. In America, it was about establishing a society that a very specific segment of the Ruling Class thinks is "proper" and forcing it into being by any means necessary... all while blaming it on someone people already hate.

I think China started it, "accidentally" or otherwise, and Those People over here are merely capitalizing on the situation to finally push their agendas through. They've manipulated the situation to the point where opposing their ideas (which not even six months ago most people considered loony and unfeasible) now makes one the short-sighted lunatic. We went from "Those ideas will never work" to "Well, what CHOICE do we have but to get paid to sit at home?" in no time at all.

Again... if you don't believe in coincidence... and I absolutely do not... well, it's all very hard to ignore. And as Andrew said... very, VERY "interesting".

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Leo

You can spank 'em. But again, I am aware that is "mean". It's still arguably what should've been done a long time ago, "mean" or not.

This isn't a very clear answer. I don't think violent action would go over very well in this case. The fallout would be horrendous.

Originally Posted by Leo

Those People have been braying for months and years about creating a society where "If you don't want to work, you just plain don't have to" and they'll just pay you to sit at home. And when people ask how that could ever be feasible, Those People say, "Well it's the government's job to find a way to make that happen."

You either misunderstand the argument, or you're deliberately misinterpreting it.

First, if you don't want to work, you don't have to. There's plenty of people living on the street who can attest to that.

Second, if you're referring to welfare recipients, you're opening a very complex can of worms that requires some very, VERY nuanced deliberation.

Third, if you're referring to universal basic income, that's in response to the growing trend of automation. What happens when millions of workers are replaced by robots? It's already happened in Detroit. And that IS the government's problem, because the government's job is LITERALLY to see to the common welfare of the people of the United States. That's in the Constitution. "To provide for the general welfare".

Those People want to be free to go wherever they want whenever they want, but YOU can't, because "You're killing the planet" every time you leave the house. So suddenly, you're not allowed to leave your house unless it's an emergency. They can even fine or arrest you. As always, The Ruling Class are exempt. They can even get their hair done! But not you.

Those People walk around without masks unfettered and even gather en masse if they feel like it. But YOU can't be allowed to or else you might unwittingly kill a bunch of people. Funny how that works.

. . . The ruling class? Who exactly are you talking about? I mean, there's a political rally where masks aren't required. If you're talking about protesters, they're mostly wearing masks.

Masks are a pretty effective way to control the spread of COVID.

Also, if a place of business requires certain attire, that's their right and privilege. You can't enter most restaurants without a shoes and shirt. Now you can't without a mask.

On a similar note, If you want to reign in corporate power, why can't we tax them and use that to pay for UBI?

Everything I'm hearing boils down to "why can't everything go my way all the time?"

Well, because it can't. Life is unfair sometimes, and sometimes it's unfair to us. Sometimes the economy craps out. Sometimes your empire falls. Sometimes your job sucks. Sometimes your government is a steaming pile of garbage. Sometimes your car breaks down. Sometimes NFL players take a knee during the national anthem. Sometimes the cops shoot a guy in the back 7 times at point blank range.

My point is that if we're going to say that ruling powers are evil, then look at who current ruling powers are and be careful about your insinuations. If you're going to say that people need to toughen up and take hardship in stride, then why are we complaining about other people and not pushing forward ourselves, leading by example?

I'm all for stoicism, but stoicism entails not griping about other people.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Voltron

Everything I'm hearing boils down to "why can't everything go my way all the time?"

Nobody's saying any of that.

Nobody's going to convince anyone of anything, so I'm just gonna make my feelings on the entire subject crystal clear and let that be the end of it before I bow out.

Here's the deal:

- A virus exists that kills people, but only some, and mostly people who weren't long for the world anyway.

- That sucks, but as you said, That's Life. "Life Is Unfair Sometimes".

- Shutting down the economy and putting millions of people out of work was not necessary, it was an incredible overreaction that's going to do more harm than good in the long run.

- We need to let things get back to normal, even if that means people die. People die every day. "That's Life. Life Is Unfair Sometimes."

- Precautions are fine, but the overkill is delaying the inevitable. We HAVE to put this "You can't go out or PEOPLE WILL DIE" stuff to bed sooner rather than later.

- People need to be allowed to work. And it shouldn't have to be "Amazon, Walmart, work-from-home or F*ck You". Let people who want to take the risk take the risk.

- "But if YOU take a risk, you might kill someone else!" Oh. Well.

- China started it, "Because Culture", but we can't hold them accountable because if we push too hard they'll push back. Awesome.

- Nothing about this situation is sustainable.

- People on The Left are manipulating the situation to force their agenda on people who not too long ago thought they were nuts. Twisting things to their own ends. And it's nonsense. The numbers are FAKE, and MOST people are Just Fine.
-------------

ALL of that is true, and people who disagree with any of it whatsoever simply can't be helped. Truth doesn't require Belief to exist. It simply has to be The Truth.

I'm glad that for people who get to keep their push-button jobs and either enjoy or have no problem living in fear, this situation is advantageous. For everyone else, it's a living death and it f*cking sucks. Millions of people losing their entire livelihood because something bad MIGHT happen to them or someone they know is nonsense. BUT, it's reality.

Have fun with it. Frankly, if I'm expected to wear a goddamn mask every time I go out for the rest of my life, and if I can't work anymore, and it's all because other people are afraid of dying, then just sign me up for f*cking Death. I'll take it over All This, gladly.

This ain't "living", and it ain't sustainable. It's a bad joke that's gotten way out of hand.

That's my beginning, middle, and end on the subject. Have a nice day, and enjoy a lifetime of inconvenience and financial ruin because some people get the sniffles and a few don't get better.

"That's Life. Life Is Unfair Sometimes."

[Voltron]

Nobody's going to convince anyone of anything

You're right about not convincing me. I'm pretty stubborn.

so I'm just gonna make my feelings

Unfortunately, feelings don't always match up with the reality of the situation. That's going to happen a lot here.

- A virus exists that kills people, but only some, and mostly people who weren't long for the world anyway.

Then, arguably, what China did wasn't that bad. One could argue it was a net good, since we don't have to pay social security or medical expenses for people who were lingering, anyway.

. . . Thanks, China?

- That sucks, but as you said, That's Life. "Life Is Unfair Sometimes".

It is. But we can do things to rectify those inequities. That' more or less the plot of human civilization.

- Shutting down the economy and putting millions of people out of work was not necessary, it was an incredible overreaction that's going to do more harm than good in the long run.

It was necessary in order to spare us a larger economic meltdown later in the game. If a quick spreading disease manages to take out a sizable portion of the workforce, the economy is going to collapse anyway.

Couple this with the high risk of medical workers becoming infected and unable to render treatment to people who need it, and that's a recipe for disaster.

Shutting down and maintaining social distance has been our go-to strategy for decades, if not centuries. In lieu of that, we could all wash our hands, wear masks, and generally look out for each other. However, we all see what happens when half the population are asked to pitch in.

- We need to let things get back to normal, even if that means people die. People die every day. "That's Life. Life Is Unfair Sometimes."

Again, this absolves China of any responsibility. In fact, this outlook absolves anyone of any responsibility for any life lost due to malice or negligence.

Did I hit your dog with my car? Get over it. Dogs only live for a decade, at best, and no one but you liked it anyway. What do dogs even provide?

Dismissing the feelings of people is never a good way to calm a situation. I'll show this through example later. Keep your eyes open for when I turn my assholishness up to 11 and tell you this is all YOUR fault.

- Precautions are fine, but the overkill is delaying the inevitable. We HAVE to put this "You can't go out or PEOPLE WILL DIE" stuff to bed sooner rather than later.

I've explained this before: limiting exposure mitigates a greater disaster down the line. It's not that everyone is going to die. It's that we don't have the infrastructure to handle the influx of new infections. You'd be none-too-happy if you go into cardiac arrest but can't find a bed at a hospital because the local frat had a COVID party and they're all laid up in the local ER.

- People need to be allowed to work. And it shouldn't have to be "Amazon, Walmart, work-from-home or F*ck You". Let people who want to take the risk take the risk.

1. No, they don't. Because they're all going to die anyway. That's how nihilism works. In fact, why not just kill them? They're unnecessary burdens on society. That's sarcasm, by the way. Please don't start murdering people.

2. Why haven't you taken the risk? We talked about this awhile back, where a lot of members of the board said they'd be billionaires if they just worked at it.

I submit that that's not the case. Why? It's not because you're lazy. It's because. . .

3. The mega-corporations make it so that we can't really start a business. What business can you start that isn't being done better, cheaper, and faster than what's already out there?

If I manage to create a new social media company or an online delivery service, Facebook, Google, and Amazon have the financial power and resources to either buy me out or undercut me.

There's a chance someone breaks away and manages to create a new, large business. . . but that's a VERY small chance.

Also, you seemed really upset about the billion-dollar mask business sprouting up over-night. That's one of those risks hitting the outside chance, but I get the sense you aren't happy about it.

- "But if YOU take a risk, you might kill someone else!" Oh. Well.

Yeah. Yeah, you could. It's like drunk driving. You might not kill someone on the way, but you could. If you're wandering around with a communicable disease knowing full well the dangers, are you not responsible for it?

- China started it, "Because Culture", but we can't hold them accountable because if we push too hard they'll push back. Awesome.

But as you already pointed out, there's really no problem with the virus to begin with. You actually say this again later on.

- Nothing about this situation is sustainable.

No. But living in plague isn't our natural state, either, so it's not meant to BE sustainable.

- People on The Left are manipulating the situation to force their agenda on people who not too long ago thought they were nuts. Twisting things to their own ends. And it's nonsense.

Here you're saying it isn't a problem anymore. If so, then why be so mad at people eating bat souffle?

The numbers are FAKE, and MOST people are Just Fine.

You have to make up your mind. Either China did this and needs to be held accountable, or the numbers are fake and nothing is happening. You can't have it both ways.
-------------

ALL of that is true

By definition, it can't be. You've stated scenarios that are mutually exclusive.

, and people who disagree with any of it whatsoever simply can't be helped.

Trust me, I know the frustration.

Truth doesn't require Belief to exist.

No, but you stated that these were your "feelings" on the matter. That's different from truth.

It simply has to be The Truth.

No, it doesn't.

I'm glad that for people who get to keep their push-button jobs and either enjoy or have no problem living in fear, this situation is advantageous. For everyone else,

I got to keep my job. It's great. I experienced literally no negative effects from this at all. I'm not making that up, either. My company expanded and got new customers. We're doing better NOW than at the beginning of this whole mess.

But maybe that's because I'm smart. Maybe I work harder than you. Maybe I wanted it more. Maybe I'm just plain better than you and God is showing that by making me richer and more comfortable. Or I did it through my own sweat.

I'm joking. But that's what I mean about deciding other people are automatically at fault when misfortune befalls them. We're not going to move forward while we're too busy pointing fingers at the person next to us.

it's a living death and it f*cking sucks.

Sounds like you're just lingering. Why not go out and take that risk? Be the next Amazon! Be the next Walmart! The only thing in your way is you.

Millions of people losing their entire livelihood because something bad MIGHT happen to them or someone they know is nonsense. BUT, it's reality.

Yeah, but what were those people actually producing? I mean, let's be realistic. We kept the essential workers. If you got laid off, you're not really all that important, are you?

Have fun with it. Frankly, if I'm expected to wear a goddamn mask every time I go out for the rest of my life, and if I can't work anymore, and it's all because other people are afraid of dying, then just sign me up for f*cking Death. I'll take it over All This, gladly.

This is actually in line with what you've been saying. If you're all for human extinction, it's appropriate to lead by example.

This ain't "living", and it ain't sustainable. It's a bad joke that's gotten way out of hand.

I've been saying this whole economic model isn't sustainable. We can change it, but that's out of the question.

That's my beginning, middle, and end on the subject. Have a nice day, and enjoy a lifetime of inconvenience and financial ruin because some people get the sniffles and a few don't get better.

I already told you that I'm not. I still have my job. I never lost it. I have a ton of skills that are very marketable, and I could pick a few more up while I'm sitting on my ass. At the very least, I could jump on Fiverr and write some furry porn for JarrahWhite and make a few bucks off that.

"That's Life. Life Is Unfair Sometimes."

If you're angry, I understand. But anger clouds reason. That's why our news cycle pumps out things like the Oscar diversity list. We're all looking at that while Jeff Bezos just got billions of dollars richer. . . but you don't seem too upset about a guy who makes more in a month than all of us combined over the course of several life times.

But maybe that's because he's way better than us, and we deserve to be ruled by god-kings. I dunno.

[Allsparrow]

I’ve noticed a strong pull to the right in this forum. There’s also a lot of finger pointing going on. I’m wondering if anybody here has had direct experience with COVID-19? Anybody here get sick? Anyone here get COVID and still think it’s a bio weapon against Trump, or that it’s just a flu?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Allsparrow

Anybody here get sick?

Not that has ever been posted about here. Presumably no.

Anyone here get COVID and still think it’s a bio weapon against Trump, or that it’s just a flu?

I'm guessing no. Personally, I only know of one guy in my entire circle of friends, both online and in person to get it and die of it. The husband of an old friend. Not even my friend, really, but he was a good guy. He was a little older than me at 41. Also, about 400 pounds with asthma. The regular flu probably could have done him in just the same, honestly. Don't know of anyone else. Or does my wife... and she works in healthcare. And come to think of it, beyond that I only know of one other person to get it that is even on my FB feed (and I have 1,100+ "friends" on it) to get it, and I'm not even certain I believe her because she's the type to wake up every day and post 5 times a day about how horrible Trump is and how much we need to fear the virus even before she "got" it. In the interest of fairness, fine, let's count her. Though here I am in Seattle, where reportedly hundreds are dropping dead like flies everyday.

Again, I'm not the conspiracy theory type, but I do think the whole COVID thing is being harnessed by the left to... if not thwart Trump (though I'm sure it is a more than welcome side effect for them), then go for the throat after capitalism at large. Encourage and foster fear, encourage people to tattle tale on neighbors, "stay home and stay safe" so the existing system implodes on itself and they can replace it with their own. Do I think, like, Pelosi and Schumer paid some lab to make a virus to this end? No, not at all. But a mountain is being made of a mole hill to their benefit, for sure.

I'm not afraid of the virus. Also, I don't have any grandma, nor do I hang out with or go around hugging grandmas. You can't force people to fear, as much as you might want to. Also, that's incredibly unhealthy. Either to want that or to do that.

What should we do, as a compromise, as a country? I think it's fairly simple. Reopen EVERYTHING. No restrictions. Encourage tourism again. The movie theaters. Give companies incentive packages to do so to up the daily cleaning and hygiene factor. Masks? Fine, mandatory. For a while, but let's agree on an end date. You're old or at high risk but were previously in the workforce? Fine, stay home if you want and we can look at additional unemployment or other benefits for you. Also: stay away from people you think might be infected. Nobody cares more about your personal well being than YOU.

Done. The rest of us go back to work.

Also the billion+ dollar mask industry (and I'm assuming hand sanitizer goes hand in hand with this, no pun intended) that's sprouted? I'm sure that's wonderful for the people looking to make $12 an hour making masks in a plant. The rest of us need our real jobs back.

[Allsparrow]

What do you do for a living?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Allsparrow

What do you do for a living?

Hotel sales manager. I'm the guy you'd speak to and meet if you'd like, want to book a wedding or reunion or business meeting in one of our hotel meeting rooms and I draw up your contract and see that all of your catering needs are met. And... guess what isn't happening at all now, because they're being scared away? Meetings. And catering.

[Allsparrow]

So your job depends on people getting together in large groups, and you’re not afraid of getting sick. I can see how you’d be fed up. Maybe you could try advertising to People who’ve had COVID? Social gatherings for people who have the anti-bodies?

[Wildcat]

A relative of an inlaw that passed away was said to have it and I think my the grandmother of my neighbors had it who also passed away. They probably had other health problems and made it worse. Like you hear it causes complications.

Just because many have not gotten something does not mean anything. Sometimes you can go a long time without getting the flu or a cold. Theyre still out there and contagious.

In response to the topic...if another pandemic came around it would depend on what kind of sickness it caused. Not that I think it will become a regular occurance. Last time was 1918 I guess. Other stuff like swine flu were contained.

I mentioned I hate politics and this happening in an election year makes it just a little worse. Ive always hated those stupid attack ads they do all the time. Theyre so cartoonishly exaggerated. So of course they find anyway to make it about the virus in these things. Does not even matter. It could have been any world event.

Aliens could have abducted people and they would have been like...(Blank) played Space Invaders growing up and were last seen watching Mars Attacks. Can we really trust them to protect us from extraterrestrials? Im (Blank) and I approve this message...Complete nonsense.

Ive actually been able to tell when one is being beamed into something Im watching because the screen glitches. I turn off the satellite, not the tv, to break the signal and a totally different commercial is playing when I turn it on.

In general though I stopped reading up on things but still hear the daily news. If it was man made I can see it accidently getting loose and spreading but I do not think it was done on purpose to wipeout people like a super villian.

I think it SHOULD be taken seriously though. Not much is known about it long term yet and theres no vaccine. Its scary that just like in movies theres always some people that do not and think they know better. Im sad to see those movies were an accurate representation.

Nobody is even asking that much. Keep your distance, practice cleanliness and and cover your mouth/nose. Honestly protesting masks makes me mad. Its like protesting seatbelts. Its such an easy precaution to take and can help agaisnt other germs. Its just a mask. Not a whole hazard suit.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Allsparrow

So your job depends on people getting together in large groups, and you’re not afraid of getting sick. I can see how you’d be fed up. Maybe you could try advertising to People who’ve had COVID? Social gatherings for people who have the anti-bodies?

I can't tell if you're being snarky or not. I'm going to assume you're not.

For that, I'd need to actually be employed and doing stuff for my employer. I'm not. Marketing was part of my job as well, it's true. Though I think the bigger and better answer to this would be to come out and admit "we gotta get back to business... but with added precautions! Don't worry, we're taking it seriously!" With commercials of, like, housekeepers wiping down everything and buffets where people are being served individually by staff with masks, etc.. Maybe some nice music.

But... hotels need to actually be allowed to do that. Right now they can't. Maybe tiny meetings, which wouldn't justify any salaries for sure. Not quite up on the latest "phase" business here but I know it's not good.

[Allsparrow]

I’m not being snarky. Many people are obviously feeling the way you do, getting anxious, looking to have a place to go. They say antibodies give you 3 months immunity.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Wildcat

Nobody is even asking that much. Keep your distance, practice cleanliness and and cover your mouth/nose. Honestly protesting masks makes me mad.

They ARE asking a lot, obviously. People are losing their livelihoods and jobs and businesses and shops because of a bug ridiculously less lethal to young people than Swine flu.

Masks. Eh. I mean, I'm OK with it if it makes people happy in certain circumstances. What I don't like is the silly idea that if they'd been forced months beforehand, millions would still be with us. Bullsh**. If these numbers were true at all, the bulk of these were nursing homes where this spread like wildfire.

Originally Posted by Allsparrow

I’m not being snarky. Many people are obviously feeling the way you do, getting anxious, looking to have a place to go. They say antibodies give you 3 months immunity.

Fair enough, I just feel a bit on the defense with how some cats come at me on boards. Now, I've been up on that kind of stuff. My conclusions? They basically know nothing and the data showing people getting reinfected seems to always end up being flawed or inconclusive. Like "maybe the virus wasn't actually all the way out yet... but we're going to look at it as a possible reinfection," etc..

The data on the mostly successful vaccine trials (disclaimer: there may NEVER be a vaccine and can we please stop assuming there will be) suggests it doesn't mutate much or at all and is going to be zappable like anything else.

[Wildcat]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

They ARE asking a lot, obviously. People are losing their livelihoods and jobs and businesses and shops because of a bug ridiculously less lethal to young people than Swine flu.

Masks. Eh. I mean, I'm OK with it if it makes people happy in certain circumstances. What I don't like is the silly idea that if they'd been forced months beforehand, millions would still be with us.

I understand businesses are really struggling. I see why some want to reopen but Im sorry I really have to disagree with going back 100% with zero restrictions. That is waaaaaay too soon. It seems long but this just started in the spring. We are barely entering fall.

Theaters are like the least important. If they went on as usual the movies would underperform by default. Why should studios purposely hinder their movies performance? They know many people will still stay home. Being open does not automatically make sales.

Ya the masks are not a guarantee. Its a precaution. Like seatbelts. Thats why I used that example. The fact some are totally against masks when it’s such a simple precaution and at the very least protects from other airborne germs is ridiculous to me. Are they gonna protest tissues next?

Im surprised you are not afraid of it. It seems like older people are more vulnerable but it can negatively affect anyone. You do not know til you have it. Some people have appeared on tv who are not that old have gotten really sick. Some say they had side effects even after they recovered. Like I said its long term effects are unknown. Its all still very new.

[Andrew NDB]

I'm neither fat or super old. Also, no asthma. So no, not afraid of it. I'd way rather have it now than in 10 years if it's still floating around as this silent political killer. I'd be fine. I'm thin and fit and work out everyday (also take my vitamins per Hulk Hogan) and am under 40.

And if the arts (theaters, etc.) aren't protected in some way... what are we even doing? Why even bother, then?

[Wildcat]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I'm neither fat or super old. Also, no asthma. So no, not afraid of it. I'd way rather have it now than in 10 years if it's still floating around as this silent political killer. I'd be fine. I'm thin and fit and work out everyday (also take my vitamins per Hulk Hogan) and am under 40.

Im neither of those things either but ok.

You keep bringing up Swine Flu though. I did a quick check and the total deaths were around 500,000 plus. The Coronavirus total is getting close 1 million. Ya it affected more young people than older but I do not see why this matters. People are still dying. I really do not understand why you keep bringing it up.

And if the arts (theaters, etc.) aren't protected in some way... what are we even doing? Why even bother, then?

What do you mean protected? Nothing wrong with delaying things so they get a better chance at performing well. Plus it could help in quality too by not rushing or trying to work around quarantines if something is not done yet.

[Leo656]

Voltron: You're gonna pick and twist much of whatever I say and I accept that, therefore I'm not going to drag it out further. There's nuance in many of my points that you either fail to recognize or willfully ignore and therefore I'm not going to continue the long, drawn-out back and forth about it. There's no point in typing words that aren't going to be read OR will be misunderstood either by accident or on purpose.

Put simply, and for the record once and for all, though, here's what I sincerely believe happened:

- China's been trying to create a "manageable plague" for a long time and something slipped through the cracks. You asked "Why bother?" at one point; my theory is, so they can stop literally murdering people in public to keep their population under control and start pretending to be "Nice Guys" instead, while letting their super-bug do the hard and dirty work for them. This HAS to be true, otherwise, why would they spend so much time and money experimenting with biological weapons and super-germs as they do? There has to be an Endgame or else it's all just a sick hobby.

- I don't think that what got out was a completed project nor was it probably supposed to get out. Which would explain why it doesn't seem to be very bad; it likely was a prototype, bad enough to do some damage but not to its full potential. Again, you stated that "If it were all by design then it would be a lot more potent" and thus my theory is invalid, but that's oversimplifying and ignoring the fact that multiple things can be true at once. They absolutely could have designed this thing BUT it absolutely could have gotten out by accident in an unfinished state. Get it?

- Even in an unfinished state, they more than likely would have something, if not a vaccine then SOME kind of "control" in place to protect not only the lab workers but any government officials from contracting it, because that's only common sense.

Frankly, without getting too deep into it, I believe and always have that there are a LOT of "cures" and vaccines for all kinds of things that You or I will never be privy to, because they're kept under lock and key for "The Important People" like heads of state and so on. But you don't dabble in designer viruses without having some sort of control in place, that's stupid. That's why I believe China has something to counter this and are waiting for a chance to sell it back to us.

- Just because I believe the numbers are completely exaggerated doesn't mean I think nobody's dying. I don't know a single person personally who's even gotten a sniffle since this ordeal started, but it's NOT an all-or-nothing game. The virus can be real AND lethal to some (but not most/all) AND the numbers can all be completely made up to serve a Very Specific Agenda (as Andrew posits).

- The fact that the numbers (and the entire situation) is a lot more under control in countries where there's not an extremely cutthroat election going on this year isn't lost on me, and shouldn't be lost on anyone. "They take it more seriously Over There, THAT's why the numbers are so low!" Oh, lord, to be young and naive again. I live in one of the most densely-populated states in the Northeast, 3 out of 10 people walk around with no masks on and yet nobody's gotten sick or knows anyone who has. MOST people here are in agreement that people Up Top are stirring the pot so they can get back the White House in November. We may think differently IF what the lying liars who lie on the TV news said anything that was matching up to what we see with our own eyes, BUT, that hasn't been the case. Not a sniffle in 6 months, whether people comply or don't comply. Hmmmmmmm......

So again, we've debated long and hard and I don't want to do that, I'm simply making what *I* think is going on perfectly clear and you can believe it or don't, but I find my version of events more based in reality. Hopefully I've detailed and better-explained the nuances which you missed before.

There is NO reason that China couldn't have been playing with germs, something bad (but not TOO bad) leaked out, and now the Democrats are using the situation to their advantage. That's my A-B-C theory and there's nothing about it that's hard to believe whatsoever. If people don't want to believe it, well... that's fine, so long as they don't wag fingers and scold, because Their Version of "the truth" doesn't make any more OR less sense than what I think happened.

Love you brother, glad you have a job.

OH, that reminds me, before I forget and since you asked: I'd love to "Take the risk" and go back to work. But here's the thing: I only have a very narrow set of marketable skills AND I live in a suburban area where most places are completely shut down, still. I still have a few months' worth of unemployment left to coast on, and in the meantime nothing around here is going to pay me more than what I'll make at home. In the end, I MIGHT have no choice but to swallow my pride and mop floors at f*cking Walmart, but in the meantime I have no inclination to do that because frankly, I'm too old and have worked too hard for too long to go back to Square One dipsh*t work that any high school dropout can do. If that's where I was gonna end up I wouldn't have busted my ass to get where I was before all this happened. If I end up having no choice, that's another conversation for another time, but I still have time left to think about it. Meanwhile, no gyms are open around here for an hour in any direction, and even if there were, Personal Training is a dead industry now, I doubt I'll ever be able to go back to doing what I was, which sucks because I was great at it. But nobody's got the money and people are scared to be around people. My ex-boss has even said that he has no inclination to try and open a new gym for at least a year, because he's not of the mind nor temperament to enforce mask rules and follow people around with spray bottles when everyone in NJ knows that these excessive precuationary measures are all for show any damn way. He says he MIGHT open up another gym in a year or so once this farce is done away with, IF it is, but in the meantime it's too much of a hassle. He's a millionaire, he'll be fine.

But yeah, I personally have few/no options in the immediate. Like I've said many times, "It sucks, but in all the hubbub I forgot to go to law school." So yeah, people like me, who are the majority, are pretty well and truly f*cked by this scenario.

We'll see what happens. I'm talking to a few people. Something might pop, or not. We'll see.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I'm guessing no. Personally, I only know of one guy in my entire circle of friends, both online and in person to get it and die of it. The husband of an old friend. Not even my friend, really, but he was a good guy. He was a little older than me at 41. Also, about 400 pounds with asthma. The regular flu probably could have done him in just the same, honestly. Don't know of anyone else. Or does my wife... and she works in healthcare. And come to think of it, beyond that I only know of one other person to get it that is even on my FB feed (and I have 1,100+ "friends" on it) to get it, and I'm not even certain I believe her because she's the type to wake up every day and post 5 times a day about how horrible Trump is and how much we need to fear the virus even before she "got" it. In the interest of fairness, fine, let's count her. Though here I am in Seattle, where reportedly hundreds are dropping dead like flies everyday.

Again, I'm not the conspiracy theory type, but I do think the whole COVID thing is being harnessed by the left to... if not thwart Trump (though I'm sure it is a more than welcome side effect for them), then go for the throat after capitalism at large. Encourage and foster fear, encourage people to tattle tale on neighbors, "stay home and stay safe" so the existing system implodes on itself and they can replace it with their own. Do I think, like, Pelosi and Schumer paid some lab to make a virus to this end? No, not at all. But a mountain is being made of a mole hill to their benefit, for sure.

I'm not afraid of the virus. Also, I don't have any grandma, nor do I hang out with or go around hugging grandmas. You can't force people to fear, as much as you might want to. Also, that's incredibly unhealthy. Either to want that or to do that.

What should we do, as a compromise, as a country? I think it's fairly simple. Reopen EVERYTHING. No restrictions. Encourage tourism again. The movie theaters. Give companies incentive packages to do so to up the daily cleaning and hygiene factor. Masks? Fine, mandatory. For a while, but let's agree on an end date. You're old or at high risk but were previously in the workforce? Fine, stay home if you want and we can look at additional unemployment or other benefits for you. Also: stay away from people you think might be infected. Nobody cares more about your personal well being than YOU.

Done. The rest of us go back to work.

Also the billion+ dollar mask industry (and I'm assuming hand sanitizer goes hand in hand with this, no pun intended) that's sprouted? I'm sure that's wonderful for the people looking to make $12 an hour making masks in a plant. The rest of us need our real jobs back.

All the bold, I STRONGLY agree with. The Left have been waiting and salivating for a scenario Just Like This so they can cram all their shortsighted U.B.I. nonsense through. I've said all of that before. And when you control the mainstream media as they do, well... 200 people dying from a virus can be 2,000 or even two million pretty damn fast, and suddenly everybody HAS to take you seriously.

You banged the nail. Pelosi, etc. didn't create the situation but they're absolutely taking advantage of it. You'll NEVER convince me otherwise.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I actually lost a business associate to COVID-19 earlier this year. And I had a sibling who works in the ICU of a major hospital in town come down with (and recover from) COVID.

She's my go-to source on "is this trumped up or something to actually worry about?" "Are masks and social distancing necessary?" "What about closing down businesses?" "Should I avoid you for 2 weeks now?"

I don't care to get into this whole argument, just throwing that out there. I suggest people do the same. Find a personal trusted source who knows their medical $hit and ask them your questions.

Originally Posted by Leo656

Frankly, without getting too deep into it, I believe and always have that there are a LOT of "cures" and vaccines for all kinds of things that You or I will never be privy to, because they're kept under lock and key for "The Important People" like heads of state and so on. But you don't dabble in designer viruses without having some sort of control in place, that's stupid. That's why I believe China has something to counter this and are waiting for a chance to sell it back to us.

That reminds me, I need to ask my sis about that... I've suspected the same regarding some illnesses. Curious what someone who knows their medical $hit thinks.