Has IDW TMNT Lost Its Edge?

[80gmrp]

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

it doubt it I want them to continue doing it. I would like to see these characters grow into adults.

As upset as I have been with a certain character’s portrayal for many of the issues, among other lesser gripes, I do agree with TigerClaw about one thing, other than the idea of adult turtles: it’s highly unlikely they will be rebooted any time soon. The only way I can picture the comics being rebooted is if the franchise changes publishers yet again, and even then, it’s hard to say if the story would be completely rewritten from scratch, especially as I don’t deny how much time was put into this iteration.

[Shark_Blade]

Originally Posted by rs_jr

do you guys think IDW will end this current TMNT version and relaunch a new one like they did with transformers?

Splinter literally just died in #100 and we?re just at #107 so I don?t think they?d hit the reboot button anytime soon.

It?s pretty edgy for them to live without a parent figure. See how they?re coping and struggling to fit back as a family unit.


What’s with this forum changing apostrophe to question mark???

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

What?s with this forum changing apostrophe to question mark???

It's probably whatever software you're using to post to the board. Are you on a phone? Maybe it updated and now it's trying to use the fancy apostrophes instead of the standard ones, but the forum software (which is very old now) doesn't recognize it.

[Leo656]

I noticed that it only happened to me one time so far, and I was indeed posting on my phone. So that almost certainly is a factor.

[909 Turtle Fan]

I like turtles.
Not too interested in all the extra mutants. Especially the cutie baby girl ones.
Read every issue (only comic book I read actually. I?m a Star Wars novella guy) but kinda tuned out after Sally cracked Hob in the face and he literally walked away from her and the other girls with his tail between his legs.
Also don?t care for Jennika acting the way she does with the turtles as they?re supposed to be grieving. She should be making the pizza every night since they saved her life and now she gets all these special covers and a 2nd mini. Lol jk!

I get that it?s a down time and they?re supposed to be setting up another big story, but with that being said, yes it has lost a bit of steam for me.
Guess I?m interested in good guy shredder and LeatherKrang?

[Wingnut II]

Krangerhead!

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

When the Turtles killed in Mirage, it never felt gratuitous. And when some of them later stopped or grew disillusioned with it, it felt EARNED. It felt like it mattered to who they were, and was a natural development of every life they'd taken and every fight they'd survived.

Leo getting angry at Raph for killing guards in the beginning of Volume 3, and Don throwing away the gun in disgust after saving Karai from the Foot Elite in "City at War"...

Whenever "we don't kill" comes up in IDW, it just feels so incredibly trite. Because TMNT is for kiddies.

that is probably the best Mirage/IDW killing comparison and analysis I have ever seen. Mirage treated the issue seriously. IDW is forced to dance around the issue and then deny the killing because, well your last sentence says it all.

[AquaParade]

Yeah, I'd definitely have to agree there too. The whole thing becomes egregious when the turtles have to fight for, not only their lives, but the lives of those they care about, but aren't willing to kill.
I'm sorry, but if someone is attempting to murder you or a loved one, and you *slap* them with a sword instead of decisively taking them out...time and time again, then the immersion is completely shattered.
And don't put that onus on the readers. We aren't bloodthirsty.
But if you're going to play with swords, don't play around.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Yeah, I'd definitely have to agree there too. The whole thing becomes egregious when the turtles have to fight for, not only their lives, but the lives of those they care about, but aren't willing to kill.
I'm sorry, but if someone is attempting to murder you or a loved one, and you *slap* them with a sword instead of decisively taking them out...time and time again, then the immersion is completely shattered.

Yup. With IDW I had the advantage of reading the trades, 100 issues and minis in arcs released over a period of about 9 years... read them as they came out AND... as a result thee glaring no-kill rule was kind of not noticed as much because I was focused more on the current story... but it still doesnt make any sense for ninjas to have a code that would be better suited to an old, retired Samurai.

[CyberCubed]

Hopefully by issue 120 we should see the "edge" come back.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Hopefully by issue 120 we should see the "edge" come back.

I think, given what little Sophie has shared about her favorite flavour of TMNT and her preferences/favorite stories, it is interesting that some feel it has lost its edge post 100. With Sophie doing the writing chores immediately after #100, you might think the story would have gone edgier, no?????

[Sophie Campbell]

I don't agree with you guys about much, but we're on the same page with the killing thing. It's very frustrating, not because I'm bloodthirsty (although I am) and want random ultraviolence in TMNT (I do), but because it takes some of the natural-ness out of the concept and can lead to narrative awkwardness.

I'm cool with non-killing Turtles but I feel like it needs to be baked into the overall concept better. Ninjas don't HAVE to kill, they still have the stealth technique angle and espionage and spying, that stuff is awesome and fun even without the assassination part. I actually tried to accommodate this in-universe by having Raph and Leo trade in their weapons for tonfa and bokken, respectively, but it fell through (you can even see Leo with a bokken on the #103 cover). Like might as well go all-in with it and have that be part of the characters' mission statement like how Batman does it, right?

But eh what can you do, that's the nature of licensed comics, you gotta play within certain boundaries. BUT that doesn't automatically mean the material is bad or compromised, it can still be its own thing and regardless of the restrictions I'm still having a blast doing TMNT. I get to do like 98% of what I want and that ain't bad, haha.

As for the "edge" thing, I feel like that doesn't really mean anything. If we're talking about edginess as in grittiness or whatever, yeah I guess IDW has lost that, but in terms of the regular definition of edginess being like "being at the forefront/experimental/etc." then I think IDW TMNT sort of is, I'm definitely trying a lot of stuff that's new to TMNT and stuff that's connecting with a lot of new younger female readers. That's pretty fresh, for better or worse.

I guess for the "edge" you guys are talking about, though, I don't think IDW TMNT ever had it. That's not a judgment call, it just is what it is, TMNT hasn't had that kind of Mirage-style grit since volume 2. Even by volume 4 I feel like it had lost it, or rather moved on to something else (which was fine because I love volume 4!!!). Then TMNT going to Viacom was definitely the nail in the edgy coffin, future TMNT incarnations will probably never have that again. But I think that's okay, it can be something else that has its own value on its own terms.

[Diorm]

Originally Posted by Sophie Campbell

I don't agree with you guys about much, but we're on the same page with the killing thing. It's very frustrating, not because I'm bloodthirsty (although I am) and want random ultraviolence in TMNT (I do), but because it takes some of the natural-ness out of the concept and can lead to narrative awkwardness.

I'm cool with non-killing Turtles but I feel like it needs to be baked into the overall concept better. Ninjas don't HAVE to kill, they still have the stealth technique angle and espionage and spying, that stuff is awesome and fun even without the assassination part. I actually tried to accommodate this in-universe by having Raph and Leo trade in their weapons for tonfa and bokken, respectively, but it fell through (you can even see Leo with a bokken on the #103 cover). Like might as well go all-in with it and have that be part of the characters' mission statement like how Batman does it, right?

But eh what can you do, that's the nature of licensed comics, you gotta play within certain boundaries. BUT that doesn't automatically mean the material is bad or compromised, it can still be its own thing and regardless of the restrictions I'm still having a blast doing TMNT. I get to do like 98% of what I want and that ain't bad, haha.

As for the "edge" thing, I feel like that doesn't really mean anything. If we're talking about edginess as in grittiness or whatever, yeah I guess IDW has lost that, but in terms of the regular definition of edginess being like "being at the forefront/experimental/etc." then I think IDW TMNT sort of is, I'm definitely trying a lot of stuff that's new to TMNT and stuff that's connecting with a lot of new younger female readers. That's pretty fresh, for better or worse.

I guess for the "edge" you guys are talking about, though, I don't think IDW TMNT ever had it. That's not a judgment call, it just is what it is, TMNT hasn't had that kind of Mirage-style grit since volume 2. Even by volume 4 I feel like it had lost it, or rather moved on to something else (which was fine because I love volume 4!!!). Then TMNT going to Viacom was definitely the nail in the edgy coffin, future TMNT incarnations will probably never have that again. But I think that's okay, it can be something else that has its own value on its own terms.

Well that's kinda not true since a lot of people seems to like what as been done with the "edge" part of the Last Ronin. So it CAN be done.
And I don't know what the others are talking about when they say "IDW lost it's edge". True it was never as edgy as the Mirage Volume 1 but it fell in the teen romance way too much (The new younger female readers thing I guess).
TMNT never really had complex plot neither, but IDW kinda had something with how it delivered plotwist after plotwist.
I'm not really good at putting my thoughs in words like others (language barrier and all that) but it sure lost something I can't really tell what.
And hey, no hard feelings, just trying to give some feedback. The comic is not BAD in any way, just missing something that was there before. Not the "edge".

(By the way, did you ever try to sneak something the publisher wouldn't want? Or is it really supervised?)

[AquaParade]

Yeah, I was speaking of the series as a whole, which while I do appreciate immensely for the care and reverence put in, can never manage to hold my attention because of narrative dissonance like this, among a few other personal nitpicks. The resurrection angle is very cool though.


I actually find Sophie's story to be more captivating than the ongoing typically is. Different strokes, obviously.

And overall, I think IDW has done well with TMNT. They got Kevin involved again, reprinted a ton of rare material, brought in new fans with the ongoing, and The Last Ronin is off to a great start.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Sophie Campbell

I don't agree with you guys about much, but we're on the same page with the killing thing. It's very frustrating, not because I'm bloodthirsty (although I am) and want random ultraviolence in TMNT (I do), but because it takes some of the natural-ness out of the concept and can lead to narrative awkwardness.

I'm cool with non-killing Turtles but I feel like it needs to be baked into the overall concept better. Ninjas don't HAVE to kill, they still have the stealth technique angle and espionage and spying, that stuff is awesome and fun even without the assassination part. I actually tried to accommodate this in-universe by having Raph and Leo trade in their weapons for tonfa and bokken, respectively, but it fell through (you can even see Leo with a bokken on the #103 cover). Like might as well go all-in with it and have that be part of the characters' mission statement like how Batman does it, right?

But eh what can you do, that's the nature of licensed comics, you gotta play within certain boundaries. BUT that doesn't automatically mean the material is bad or compromised, it can still be its own thing and regardless of the restrictions I'm still having a blast doing TMNT. I get to do like 98% of what I want and that ain't bad, haha.

As for the "edge" thing, I feel like that doesn't really mean anything. If we're talking about edginess as in grittiness or whatever, yeah I guess IDW has lost that, but in terms of the regular definition of edginess being like "being at the forefront/experimental/etc." then I think IDW TMNT sort of is, I'm definitely trying a lot of stuff that's new to TMNT and stuff that's connecting with a lot of new younger female readers. That's pretty fresh, for better or worse.

I guess for the "edge" you guys are talking about, though, I don't think IDW TMNT ever had it. That's not a judgment call, it just is what it is, TMNT hasn't had that kind of Mirage-style grit since volume 2. Even by volume 4 I feel like it had lost it, or rather moved on to something else (which was fine because I love volume 4!!!). Then TMNT going to Viacom was definitely the nail in the edgy coffin, future TMNT incarnations will probably never have that again. But I think that's okay, it can be something else that has its own value on its own terms.

That's a pretty fair post.

Though where does Nick draw the line, really? "The TMNT Shall Not Kill," OK, I get it, that's been clear since IDW TMNT began. Though can you guys have, like, at least Leonardo slice someone's tendon, disabling them? Raphael pinning someone's hand to the wall by ramming a sai into the palm, maybe? I feel like the answer even to things like that is "No," so it's not even as simple as just "The TMNT Shall Not Kill."

Originally Posted by AquaParade

They got Kevin involved again

Well, Kevin got Kevin involved again. He was actively campaigning to get involved in things, wherever the deal ended up comic-wise post-2009 sale. I know because I helped.

[AquaParade]

Sure, but IDW still deserves some credit for welcoming him into the fold and the fact that he stuck around means they probably treat him right.

[Zog The Magnificent]

I don't even fully understand the no-killing rule in the comic, considering that in the actual Nickelodeon show, they totally kill. Leonardo literally beheads the Shredder. Twice. I don't think they necessarily need to kill (Batman's gotten a lot of milage out of that), but I don't get why it seems to be a hard and fast rule in the version that has less restrictions and that less people are going to see.

[Groovy]

Interesting read, good to see people's takes on the TMNT of it all. And cool to see two writers of the comic stop by here.

I'll say, aside from the killing topic, I do love the freewheeling but atmospheric and somehow believable "lived in" vibe of the Mirage stuff. For me that's tough to top. And for art I love the Eastman/Laird style stuff best, or Archie etc. Their heads just look a little small in the IDW styles. But I can certainly enjoy the visual storytelling of the different artists as well.

I'm way behind and haven't read the current stuff yet, so just saying, a cool read here.

[bjaxx87]

Originally Posted by Sophie Campbell

I don't agree with you guys about much, but we're on the same page with the killing thing. It's very frustrating, not because I'm bloodthirsty (although I am) and want random ultraviolence in TMNT (I do), but because it takes some of the natural-ness out of the concept and can lead to narrative awkwardness.

I'm cool with non-killing Turtles but I feel like it needs to be baked into the overall concept better. Ninjas don't HAVE to kill, they still have the stealth technique angle and espionage and spying, that stuff is awesome and fun even without the assassination part. I actually tried to accommodate this in-universe by having Raph and Leo trade in their weapons for tonfa and bokken, respectively, but it fell through (you can even see Leo with a bokken on the #103 cover). Like might as well go all-in with it and have that be part of the characters' mission statement like how Batman does it, right?

I still thank you for probably the only Turtle kills in IDW history.

About the change of pace in the ongoing: I actually got a little tired of Waltz' run to be honest and I sometimes wondered why I was still reading. Can't even put my finger on what bothered me the most but it simply bored me and didn't have me intrigued. I know that my favorite IDW series was TMNT Universe since it dared to experiment more and touched other genres. For that very reason the current storyline actually feels fresher and more interesting to me. I like those slice of life issues compared to the the action-oriented arcs before (one of my favorite TMNT comics was Tales of the TMNT V2 #55) and noticed that I suddenly regained interest in what happens next in the series. (I'll agree that some of those blooming romances feel a little staged, but I guess to an extent it suits the idea of an isolated and rising mutant society).

[MikeandRaph87]

I believe losing its edge has been interpreted two different ways. Losing its edge could mean its no longer edgy while it could also mean the quality of the product has declined. I interpret it as the latter and agree that at some point during City at War IDW began a decline in its quality of story as it rushed some plots that have been weaved for a long while to a conclusion. Then what was chosen to be picked up with #101 of available plots was narrow and poorly executed as a wide range of TMNT fans such as big other media fans and those of the black and white comics who had found common ground are both being turned off.