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Old 07-16-2020, 06:12 PM   #1
PizzaPower1985
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TMNT - The John Byrne Thread

I thought this TMNT 2014 movie thread was lost to history because a friend of mine, who frequents these forums, said that he remembered Byrne getting disgusted and or in a dispute on his own forum over the TMNT and apparently several people were banned. Apparently it was never deleted (but my friend was eventually banned for something else).

It sums up John Byrne's (and his fans') opinions of TMNT as a whole.

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/f...644&PN=1&TPN=1


A 2nd thread involving "Kirby the ill-fated 5th turtle" has an interesting response here by the comic book legend.

http://m.byrnerobotics.com/forum/for....asp?TID=43444

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Old 07-16-2020, 06:34 PM   #2
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Oh yeah, MovieBob, someone mentions his speculation on what this movie would have been like. I'm not sure why he assumed Splinter would turn out to be April's dad, but then again he's known for having really bad takes. I also find it amusing that MovieBob said he'd like for the next movie to feature Bebop, Rocksteady, Krang and the Technodrome because he'd just prefer the franchise to head into Fred Wolf wankery, only for him not to do a video review of OotS and quietly admitting the movie sucked on his website.

Anyway, Byrne's take that "Miller doesn't get a nickel" is pretty weird. Obviously TMNT is Miller inspired but Miller had nothing to do with the actual creation and it does not cross into plagiarism.
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Old 07-16-2020, 07:50 PM   #3
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Thanks for the heads-up, but I was hoping for more candid comments from Byrne.

I don't consider TMNT so much a "parody" of Marvel/Miller classics but more of an homage that paid tribute to the established tropes before immediately doing its own thing. I don't think anything about the Eastman & Laird issues storylines could be said to be lifted from Marvel or Miller. Clearly, they had other influences as well, and had some creative vision to tell their own story arc before loaning out the car to the guest-era contributors.
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Old 07-16-2020, 10:12 PM   #4
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Eh, I'unno if Miller "deserves" anything from TMNT. Kinda don't think so. Does Liefeld get royalties every time someone draws a character with giant shoulder pads, a million belt pouches, tiny/nonexistent feet and a 7-foot giant gun? Like, did DC pay him and the Image guys when they came up with Azrael As Batman? Because that's Liefeld all over, even though he physically had nothing to do with it, but it's 100% a "Liefeld Design" on purpose by way of "homage/parody". Should he then be compensated? I don't think so. The TMNT/Miller parallels are more numerous and substantial but I still kinda don't think so.

I do remember that "Splinter will be April's Dad" was a very heavily-discussed rumor in the lead-up to the first BayTurtles film. Frankly, given that there is no "Hamato Yoshi" character in the film and how many other things were switched and moved around hastily and haphazardly during production, I'm gonna hazard a guess and say that just like Sacks being Shredder, Splinter being April's Dad probably WAS the plan, or at least discussed, at some point before it leaked out and people got angry. It just sounds way too much like something they'd do. Like it's exactly their "flavor" of Bad Idea. So I'm just gonna assume that they wanted to do it, and would've, if someone hadn't leaked it.

Also, gotta love when people chime in on a topic about a popular property just to say "I never liked this and I'm not gonna start now." Alright Chad. We all needed to know.

And in that Kirby thread, what's that guy talking about with the "Fourth movie would have starred a 'Slutty April'" thing? I never heard anything like that before. I swear sometimes people just make stuff up. At least I have no idea what they're referencing, I'unno.
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Old 07-17-2020, 12:33 AM   #5
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And in that Kirby thread, what's that guy talking about with the "Fourth movie would have starred a 'Slutty April'" thing? I never heard anything like that before. I swear sometimes people just make stuff up. At least I have no idea what they're referencing, I'unno.
Are you familiar with Eastman at all, man???

Spoiler:
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Old 07-17-2020, 12:40 AM   #6
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Oh, well that's lovely.

I'd never seen that drawing or heard of any propsective plans at all for April in TMNT4 so I was unaware.

She certainly has some big nipples. I enjoy that.
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Old 07-17-2020, 04:50 AM   #7
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I have little wish to disparage the man because he's one of my top five comics creators of all time, but he's wrong. Miller was an inspiration to many. Being an inspiration doesn't mean you get paid because somebody imitated or homaged your style to create an incredible work of fiction.

Leo's right about Azrael. Does Joey Q need to pay Rob L some restitution because his Az-Bats design is a Rob L ripoff? No!

And I really think Byrne should give TMNT a chance. I mean he's had 30+ years to read the books, collect the figures, adore that first movie etc. But he dismisses them and it pisses me right the F*ck off. His prerogative to not like them BUT it really seems like he never even gave them a chance. I really wanna see Byrne be a fan so he can actually attempt to draw the TMNT. He never has but I'd love to see it.

And those fans? Talk about being clueless. I think it's good that a few on that board at least were familiar with Mirage.

And yeah, that April has some nice ones. And I actually do like that Kirby drawing but it reminds me of Slash a lot.
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Old 07-17-2020, 05:15 AM   #8
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I love Byrne, but like many Brits he sometimes seems a tiny bit snooty, even without trying to be. Perhaps it's just his way.
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Old 07-17-2020, 05:29 AM   #9
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I love Byrne, but like many Brits he sometimes seems a tiny bit snooty, even without trying to be. Perhaps it's just his way.
Well, his reputation for being cantankerous and quick to anger are well known. I just think if he doesnt agree with someone he either shuts them down or dismisses them as idiots. That's not the way to be. As wonderful as his art is... as wonderful as much of his Superman run is, his FF run, X-men art, it's all great, but you don't get to be a jerk about everything just because... opinions.

I love Byrne too, but when does snooty just become jerk?
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Old 07-18-2020, 02:14 PM   #10
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Does Liefeld get royalties every time someone draws a character with giant shoulder pads, a million belt pouches, tiny/nonexistent feet and a 7-foot giant gun?
Thats not Tetsuya Nomura ?? But anyway who cares what this Byrne guy says? He doesn't seem to be all that important.
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Old 07-18-2020, 02:19 PM   #11
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Jesus Christ, there ought to be a hefty fine for saying such ignorant things out loud.

John Byrne has contributed more to the comic book industry every time he scratches his ass than Eastman and Laird have in their entire f*cking lives. C'mon. Don't be ridiculous.
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Old 07-18-2020, 02:39 PM   #12
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Thats not Tetsuya Nomura ?? But anyway who cares what this Byrne guy says? He doesn't seem to be all that important.
You must really despise the Fantastic Four there, friend. Byrne's run defined Reed Richards and Byrne taught us all how to properly draw Ben Grimm.

And I bet you got a mad hate on for Superman? There's that Byrne guy again.

How do you feel about Wolverine's brown/tan costume? Created by Byrne.

Kitty Pryde? Days of Future Past? Byrne developed both of those X-men things by himself (Claremont just wrote the script).

She-Hulk?

I could go on but you get the idea. You wanna post stuff like that again, we're gonna need you to put $25 in the Technodrome Cookie Jar. Just for good measure.
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Old 07-18-2020, 02:42 PM   #13
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I did thoroughly expose myself. I don't read comics outside of ...Turtles. Or an independent work every once in a while. Everything else I read is manga.
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Old 07-18-2020, 03:09 PM   #14
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I mean, it's a common issue among some TMNT fans: They're myopic. Doesn't make 'em bad people but you can spot 'em from a mile away, usually.

You can generally tell which ones don't read a lot of comics because some - not all, but some - practically fetishize TMNT; the truth is, when you actually read a lot of comics, you quickly discover that even the very best TMNT comics are merely "Pretty good, I guess." They're only "great" if you haven't read anything else. Maybe a few individual issues here and there are "great", but that's about it. The writing and art has been consistently "serviceable at best" since day one by any objective standard, no matter which series it is.

I mean, they're "fine", but there's, like, a million better comics out there. So when people stick with "just" TMNT, it kinda makes me sad. It ain't that good, pal!

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You must really despise the Fantastic Four there, friend. Byrne's run defined Reed Richards and Byrne taught us all how to properly draw Ben Grimm.

And I bet you got a mad hate on for Superman? There's that Byrne guy again.

How do you feel about Wolverine's brown/tan costume? Created by Byrne.

Kitty Pryde? Days of Future Past? Byrne developed both of those X-men things by himself (Claremont just wrote the script).

She-Hulk?

I could go on but you get the idea. You wanna post stuff like that again, we're gonna need you to put $25 in the Technodrome Cookie Jar. Just for good measure.
It's like, pick any big name character, almost, and Byrne did either The Best run, or one of the Top 3 Best Runs. His JLA circa 2003 or whatever kinda fumbled but it was a different time. 80s Byrne was Best Byrne. But holy sh*t, that guy was just hitting back-to-back home runs across multiple companies for that entire decade. It's like he was single-handedly carrying the business! That's a bit hyperbolic, but he DID have some of the most defining runs in all of history on just about every important character. I don't love everything he's done but if there's a Mount Rushmore of comic creators, at least of the "modern" era, he's gotta be on it.

It's kinda odd to me that he never had a Batman run, even a short one. But he did some cool Batman stuff during his Superman run. And his Superman run was, of course, the best version of the character that's ever been presented in any medium in over 80 years. How many people were able to write AND draw so many iconic characters at such an impeccable level? Not many!

He's definitely very in love with himself, but eh. Few people have earned it like he has, when you've done the work and earned the rep, you can talk down to people all you want.
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Old 07-18-2020, 03:29 PM   #15
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Jesus Christ, there ought to be a hefty fine for saying such ignorant things out loud.

John Byrne has contributed more to the comic book industry every time he scratches his ass than Eastman and Laird have in their entire f*cking lives. C'mon. Don't be ridiculous.
Well....that depends how you see things.

Can anyone name a character that Byrne created that has had anywhere near the impact of TMNT? Heck can anyone name a character that Byrne has created that has had anywhere near the same impact as the Fugitoid?

Now that may be an unfair comparison Byrne isn't a guy who comes up with new characters and ideas he's a guy that takes pre-existing characters and ideas and rejigs them and not always for the better.

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It's like, pick any big name character, almost, and Byrne did either The Best run, or one of the Top 3 Best Runs
Spider-Man.
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Old 07-18-2020, 03:51 PM   #16
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It doesn't really depend on how you see things, it just depends on whether you choose to live in reality or not.

Bob Kane created exactly Zero characters and got a million dollars and a rimjob anytime anyone said the name "Batman", until he up and died. Stan Lee created, like, two characters, and spent a lifetime being hailed as a saint while openly profiting from work he was only barely involved with. Who "creates" what and who gets credit for what isn't necessarily the point.

How many characters did Byrne come up with on his own? I'unno, I only really know his Marvel and DC work, but I know he did other stuff. But again, when you talk Superman, X-Men, Hulk, Fantastic 4... you talk the Big Guns, you talk the All-Time Best Stories to ever see print in those books, you hear Byrne's name. His portfolio speaks for itself. He didn't NEED to create anything all his own, he made his bones taking existing characters and presenting the Best Ever versions of them. That's even HARDER. That's even MORE of an accomplishment.

Eastman and Laird are f*cking hacks. There, I said it. They were a couple of hacks who got lucky ONCE, and I'm glad they did. But on their own, away from each other and the unique circumstances that led to the TMNT's creation? We've seen enough work by either of them to know, their work is sh*t. They got drunk, smoked a bunch of weed, and accidentally dropped a bomb on the industry... and then Everyone Else took their idea and did much more iconic things with it. They arguably weren't even the best people to work on their own damn creation. Some say Yes, some say No, but the fact that it's even a debate speaks volumes. Yes, TMNT had an impact... because of Playmates Toys and Fred Wolf Studios. Kevin and Pete just signed a very good licensing agreement. Otherwise, TMNT would be f*cking "Brat Pack". Let's just be goddamn real about that for a second. THEY are not the reason TMNT became a phenomenon, outside of the fact that they put their names on the right piece of paper.

And even then, TMNT, as "influential" and "iconic" as they are, are still a relative pimple on the ass of the entire comic book industry. They've NEVER had a best-selling series, they've NEVER had top creators working on it, and I get it, it's "indie", but that right there says it all, doesn't it? Meanwhile, every single book that Byrne ever worked on at DC or Marvel, every single character, was 10x bigger and more important than TMNT. Very few people got into the business ever hoping to do a TMNT book, they wanted to do big iconic runs on stuff like Superman and X-Men, and he did it. He did it better than anyone, practically.

No comparison at all. Two hacks who had a good lawyer, who most people still never heard of 35 years later, and a guy who shook up the entire business every time he picked up a pencil for over a decade. That's who you're comparing. Don't talk to me about who had a bigger impact or did more good of had more influence for the industry, that entire conversation is a goddamn joke. It's practically blasphemy. A guy who everyone in the business cites as an influence, and two guys most people never heard of. Do you people think it over before you say this stuff, or...?

"The Fugitoid". Nobody even knows what that is! I swear to God, anyone who's never in their life been on this specific forum, has no idea who that character is. C'mon. COME ON.

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Spider-Man.
Hence the "Almost", Captain Pedantic. And not everything about that run was bad, just redundant.

I love "Gotcha" games. It's like wearing a name tag that says, "I know my points are full of holes, but if I deflect enough, I might gain credibility!" Except nah, doesn't work like that. You actually need to have a position worth defending in the first place.

This post comes off as very mean. But I can't be any nicer about it! This was one of the worst takes I've ever seen and now I need a drink.

...I mean, I was gonna get one anyway, but this has expedited things greatly.
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Old 07-18-2020, 04:30 PM   #17
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Well....that depends how you see things.

Can anyone name a character that Byrne created that has had anywhere near the impact of TMNT? Heck can anyone name a character that Byrne has created that has had anywhere near the same impact as the Fugitoid?

Now that may be an unfair comparison Byrne isn't a guy who comes up with new characters and ideas he's a guy that takes pre-existing characters and ideas and rejigs them and not always for the better.



Spider-Man.
One character that he created ALL BY HIMSELF... that is more famous and has more staying power than Fugitoid... KITTY PRYDE... Sprite... Shadowcat... whatever you wanna call her. YES! He also co-created Sabretooth... The Phoenix/Dark Phoenix.... There are a lot but as Leo said, it doesn't really matter.


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It's kinda odd to me that he never had a Batman run, even a short one. But he did some cool Batman stuff during his Superman run.
"The reason I do Batman as infrequently as I do is because [along with Captain America] he's my favorite character and there is a little fear that I may not do him as much justice as he deserves. I don't wanna be the guy that writes Batman and then messes up. That's not gonna be on me."

- John Byrne
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Old 07-18-2020, 04:40 PM   #18
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Hey, thanks for the Hail Mary, I had a feeling something would come up from someone who'd know better than I. But yeah, that's a short but pretty solid list of Byrne-created characters who've had enormous impact on the world at large. Good call, Garth!

Pretty nice self-aware statement from Byrne regarding Batman, but I'unno, I think he'd do alright. Superman's way harder to write than Batman and he nailed it. And the Batman he presented within the Superman books was also great. As was most of "Superman/Batman: Generations", which in itself was a really keen idea. I don't think he gives himself enough credit in that particular case. He does a good Batman!
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Old 07-18-2020, 05:00 PM   #19
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Hey, thanks for the Hail Mary, I had a feeling something would come up from someone who'd know better than I. But yeah, that's a short but pretty solid list of Byrne-created characters who've had enormous impact on the world at large. Good call, Garth!

Pretty nice self-aware statement from Byrne regarding Batman, but I'unno, I think he'd do alright. Superman's way harder to write than Batman and he nailed it. And the Batman he presented within the Superman books was also great. As was most of "Superman/Batman: Generations", which in itself was a really keen idea. I don't think he gives himself enough credit in that particular case. He does a good Batman!

Knowing your love of DC, you may have these issues... Batman #433-435



Many Deaths of Batman is a three part Batman storyline written by John Byrne and illustrated by Jim Aparo. Published in 1989 and shortly after the groundbreaking storyline Batman: A Death in the Family, this story follows the activities of a serial killer who murders a number of people dressed in Batman costumes.
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Old 07-18-2020, 05:10 PM   #20
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I do! I do have that! Although I have to re-read it, it's been far too long. Good pull!

Totally off-topic, but y'know what else was kinda neat, was that arc in "'Tec" around that time, or shortly after, with the serial killer who said he was "Batman" and was inspired by the in-universe comic book where Batman was some kind of Vengeance Demon. That late-80s/early-90s Batman stuff was off the chain, man.

But back to Byrne, y'know what I loved as a kid? That Superman issue where Joker showed up in Metroplis, Just Because. That was one'a my favorites back then. You almost never got a Superman Vs. Joker story, and it's like "Why not?" That was a good'n.
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