Pro Wrestling Discussion

[The Stryker]

Rock wouldn't be doing so well outside of wrestling if he wasn't legit loved by the people.

Its not that I love the WWE its that I don't believe its an evil alien mothership dedicated to stealing innocent wrestlers against their will and sucking them dry.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Stryker

Its not that I love the WWE its that I don't believe its an evil alien mothership dedicated to stealing innocent wrestlers against their will and sucking them dry.

No, they're an evil alien mothership dedicated to TRICKING innocent wrestlers into WILLINGLY killing themselves for some abstract and phony version of fame and then sucking them dry. Indeed there is a difference.

Naw but all kidding aside, we're just always gonna disagree about it. I just want you to know I'm not just a smark who rejects anything Vince. I am that, but not JUST that. I grew up here in NJ, where WWF was the only wrestling that meant anything. I watched religiously for my whole life until all my favorites left, then I started watching WCW more. As an 11 year old I knew not of WCW's crappy backstage politics, I only knew what I always knew: I like in-ring action the best, some days it's ALL I like about wrestling, and when WWF started acting like the matches didn't mean anything anymore in the mid-90s, I slowly fell out of it, along with most of my family. I watched both as much as I could until '97, when Vince proved to me that he hated the "wrestling" side of the biz by screwing Bret. Yeah, yeah, "best for business..." Bret Hart was loyal to a fault to WWF and Vince, while HBK spent most of '97 crying backstage and threatening to jump to WCW if he didn't get his way. So the loyal one gets canned, and the crying piece of sh*t gets his little belt, because Shawn's little stripper act allegedly sold more tickets. That's good for business? Sh*tcanning a guy who's willing to do almost anything for you b/c you gave him his break, and rewarding a guy who always always ALWAYS throws a fit when he doesn't get his way? No, it was f*cking WRONG, and only people who are blindly obsessed with wrestling can't see that.

So then I just ignored WWF, until what happened to Owen, and that was that. There was NO REASON for that sh*t, and that's when I gave up on them. Yeah, I'll watch it a bit to see the few guys I like, I'll buy their admittedly excellent DVDs b/c of matches I NEED to have in my collection, but I will never, EVER say anything good about a guy who thought it was cute to hang an untrained 240-pound pro wrestler 8 stories high from a sailboat clip designed to snap under 8 pounds of pressure, and I'll never admit that the way he does business is good for anyone but HIM. Yeah, all promoters are scum, but he's the big dog and they all have to do what he does because the average casual "wrestling's so stupid" crowd has no idea any wrestling but WWE even EXISTS, which is WHY everyone hates wrestling in the first place.

So I do readily admit an anti-WWE bias, and I also admit that I think anyone who defends them is secretly hoping for HHH's spot. Which is fine, whatever, but why would anyone?

I just want to ask ya Stryker, without putting anyone down, or judging, I'm just curious. If your tryout goes well, which I do hope it does, what if they tell you you have to 'roid up to get a job? What if you break your neck a month before a PPV and they tell you you have to work your full TV schedule until the PPV is over and THEN get it fixed? What if your wife or girlfriend cheats on you with a more popular talent and they fire YOU over it? I just wanna know, in all seriousness and honesty.

Because I want to get into wrestling someday too, but not to deal with all that. I don't want to work there, ever. I'd honestly rather be an indy guy for life, and have wrestling stay fun for me if possible, than work for Vince and just be thrown away like a used condom because his idiot writers "had nothing for me".

Please don't think I'm attacking YOU for wanting to be there, I'm not. I just honestly want to know how you'd deal with it, because I know I never could.

EDIT: But anyway, LotR? Anybody? C'mon, Angle's gonna be there, man!

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I still don't "get" MVP... just seems like "Rock 2.0", and I hated Rock 1.0, so I guess I'm gonna stay outta that one...

As far as Christian or anyone else being "over", I've said it a thousand times: whoever Vince WANTS over GETS over. It's easy to forget that people sh*t on Rocky in '96, through '97, with good reason, until he was stuffed down everyone's throat with his corny jokes and his god-awful, "wrestling is so f*cking fake" selling and offense, to the point where everyone watching just figured, "Eh, he aint going away" and accepted him.

So if "growing on you like a rash" counts as getting over, then ANYONE in McMahonland could be over, if he gave a sh*t.

Actually it was because The Rock's persona was changed from a goodie two-shoes to someone who was arrogant and let the fans that were heckling him know that they were a bunch of losers anyway. Eventually the fans ate it up.

I liked The Rock much better when he was a bad guy. Considering how arrogant the character was, being a bad guy fit him.

[Leo656]

I just never honestly met anyone face to face that liked The Rock, just people online. Most of my friends and family just think his work in the ring was fake-looking beyond belief, and thus I find his matches a little annoying.

I have an automatic gag reflex regarding anything that makes someone ask me, "Why do you watch that stupid wrestling sh*t?"


But anyway, yeah, I can't be the only one excited about Legends Of The Ring. Last year people from all over the world came, and aside from Flair the line-up wasn't half as good as this year. It's expensive but soooo worth it. Most guys sneak free pics and stuff as long as you catch 'em alone anyway. Highly recommend going, especialy for the rare DVDs and figures and stuff. I could drop a grand easy, but so far I've had a blast each time with "only" like 300 or 400 bucks, but then I try to do as much as I can. Most vendor guests are only like ten bucks and up, so if there's only a few guys you wanna see you can still have fun without spending a fortune.

[The Stryker]

Show me one indy guy whos goal as a wrestler isn't to end up in the WWE one day and I'll show you a wrestler who is full of sh*t. Hell, my trainers who are currently main eventing TNA say that the WWE is where everyone wants to be.

Vince screwed Bret because Bret was going to WCW and Vince needed the belt off of him. After the Alundra Blayze incident, Vince had every right to be paranoid. Whiner or not, Shawn Michaels was going to be in the company the next day.

I really don't need some mark trying to tell me horror stories about wrestling. They happen in every promotion all over. Maybe I'm a different person but if I'm fired or whatever I know that life goes on, I won't go to conventions to whine and bitch about a company that gave me a paycheck.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I just never honestly met anyone face to face that liked The Rock, just people online. Most of my friends and family just think his work in the ring was fake-looking beyond belief, and thus I find his matches a little annoying.

I have an automatic gag reflex regarding anything that makes someone ask me, "Why do you watch that stupid wrestling sh*t?"

Most people think that 99% of what goes on in wrestling is "fake beyond belief" anyway. Just ignore them. If you overanalyze wrestling long enough, it's going to look fake from beginning to end.

[Hamato Yoshi]

edit---------------------

[R-iZZy]

Originally Posted by Stryker

Please explain to me what evidence was there to support that Christian was going to feud with Hardy? No clues were dropped in either direction except for MATT'S promo on the night of he first attack.

Christian's no build return was to surprise the audience and maybe bump the ratings a bit. Its old school crash booking.

Christian really isn't over enough to be given a huge push at this point. He gets the same amount of cheers as Kofi and CM Punk. Good but not Main event by any stretch. Christian is proving his worth to the company by making a new potential star look like a million bucks. Plus he's on the brand where people can be re-established and built into something new.

This time last year all of the news sites were saying Vince hated CM Punk and didn't want to push him, Two weeks later Punk is MiTB. These backstage heat stories are always tossed on guys who are internet favs just to get the IWC in a rage.

You could argue Cena being the best but to quote Edge: "You'd be wrong"

EDIT: What the hell happened to Gregory Helms? did he get locked in the phantom zone or something?

What more evidence could you need? It's called "circumstantial evidence" for a reason; look at the circumstances surrounding what happened before the story was written [Christian leaving TNA] and what happened after the story unfolded [Christian showing up to ECW out of nowhere]. Crash booking? Puh-lease. Are you seriously going to be that blind for Vince? You can't bring up ratings to something you don't advertise. Not even internet reports knew Christian would debut on ECW. So no way was that gonna bring ratings up.

And I'm not saying Christian needs a huge push, like being catapulted to the Heavyweight picture. But look at the facts: he was a multiple-time Tag Team Champion with Edge [his kayfabe brother (who btw is a Heavyweight champ)], he was a multiple-time Intercontinental Champ, he had his own segment [The Peep Show]; he has a resume that deserves more than just a talent enhancement over at WWE's neglected stepchild of a brand [and a mockery of what was once a great wrestling organization]. He has charisma and in-ring talent [as displayed with his match for the ECW Title against Swagger]. Yes, he makes Swagger look good, but Swagger isn't gonna get far if he can't work with his lisp. Bad mic work means you won't reach that high plateau [Shelton Benjamin sadly is a prime example]. So yes, booking is wasting Christian's worth on a guy who more than likely won't even be considered for main events on the bigger brand shows.

As for CM Punk, the fact that he was over with the crowd was what made Vince give the green light on his run, plus the fact that most of the top faces on Raw were on the injury list. But if CM can get a green light off the fact that he's over with the crowd, why can't Christian? It just makes the reports I mentioned earlier seem all the more true.

As for Cena being the best, you REEEAAALLY don't want me to get started on arguing against that. I'd hate to have to shatter every foundation of admiration you might have for the guy. He's a hell of an entertainer and a great crowd worker, but that's all the credit I can give to the guy. As far as wrestling ability, that's another story.

And I dunno what's up with Helms. Wouldn't be surprised if he bookers are saying they can't find a way to use him.

[The Stryker]

You were the one using words like fact and obvious for Christian's return like Christian himself had a interview and said "Yep, I'm the one who attacked Jeff! Royal Rumble yo!" It was just a big case of good timing.

Man, remember that Benoit guy? His mic skills weren't that great but didn't he win the world title? Even then, why does every pushed guy have to end up as a lifetime main eventer to be considered worthwhile? The midcard is the foundation of wrestling, if everyone is a main eventer, there are no main eventers. Leo, Don't you love Hogan? How can you rag on Rock's selling?

Trust me, I've heard your Cena argument before and it's nothing I haven't heard BILLIONS of times before.

5 MOVEZ, ONLY FOR KIDS, STF ISN'T PERFECT! WAH WAH WAAAAAAAH!!!

and you call people who like Cena "Sheep".

Wrestling is a fake sport, so knowing more moves than the other guy amounts to jacksh*t if you don't know how to connect with a crowd.

[Leonardo87]

Originally Posted by Mr._Mutant_Man

I'd like to see Kane win Money in the Bank. I'm a Kane fan who still has hope for a decent world title reign.

I agree. Kane has been having an on/off winning streak, but can't he just win matches like he did before? I swear ever since his mask was removed in 2003, he never been the same at all. It's like mask gave him strength and power to strike fear into other wrestlers. As for The Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania 25, it's going to be really good. Right now Shawn is trying to do what the other 16 victims didn't, get inside the head of 'Taker really deep. It seems to be working but, I do believe 'Taker will find another way to get Shawn back. I wonder what RAW has in store of us tonight.

[The Stryker]

I was really looking forward to MizMo Vs. Primo and Carlito until it was made a lumberjack match, took it down a couple of notches. Here's still hoping Carlito and Primo get the win they deserve.

[XERO]

Yeah, I never understood the concept of the Lumberjack Match, especially when dealing with the impact of unifying the Tag Team Belts. That's kind of a big deal, especially since it's WrestleMania.

Hell, they might as well make it a Bra and Panties Match.

Either way, I just hope that match lives up to it's hype. They didn't wrestle each other every week for nothing. I'm sure they're both used to each other's styles by now, and they're gonna bring out the best in each other.

[The Stryker]

One positive I see is that the chances of a clean ending have jumped up.

[XERO]

Gah, where's Paul London when you need him? Kendrick needs SOMETHING to do.

[The Stryker]

London is too busy whining and bitching for money about how he wasn't given a chance to shine regardless of the big cruiserweight title reign and the nearly year long tag title reign.

Kendrick is doing okay, If he would stop smoking he would probably be in the US title hunt right about now.

[Lisardo]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed (I didn't search thru the bazillion of pages in this thread), but I'm wondering if anyone is as disenchanted with some of WWE's latest storylines as I am. Some are OK but really....I grow tired of Jericho beating up old has-been legends, and Orton acting like a freakazoid. I'm debating if Wrestlemania is even worth watching this year.

And for the record...yes I know that WWE isn't as great as it once was. But I still tune in here and again.

[GK Punk]

I actually find Jericho and Orton to be two of the best reasons to watch RAW right now

[Lisardo]

Originally Posted by GK

I actually find Jericho and Orton to be two of the best reasons to watch RAW right now

I guess but it's just the storylines are getting old and it keeps going on and on and on. I feel sorry for Jericho that he doesn't have a better storyline.

[R-iZZy]

Originally Posted by Stryker

You were the one using words like fact and obvious for Christian's return like Christian himself had a interview and said "Yep, I'm the one who attacked Jeff! Royal Rumble yo!" It was just a big case of good timing.

Man, remember that Benoit guy? His mic skills weren't that great but didn't he win the world title? Even then, why does every pushed guy have to end up as a lifetime main eventer to be considered worthwhile? The midcard is the foundation of wrestling, if everyone is a main eventer, there are no main eventers. Leo, Don't you love Hogan? How can you rag on Rock's selling?

Trust me, I've heard your Cena argument before and it's nothing I haven't heard BILLIONS of times before.

5 MOVEZ, ONLY FOR KIDS, STF ISN'T PERFECT! WAH WAH WAAAAAAAH!!!

and you call people who like Cena "Sheep".

Wrestling is a fake sport, so knowing more moves than the other guy amounts to jacksh*t if you don't know how to connect with a crowd.

Because me using words like "fact" and "obvious" make you super angry because it's shattering your world of belief. If you want to be blind for Vince, go right ahead. I think the circumstances prove that this was more than just "a big case of good timing".

And Benoit was over with the crowd, hence his push. He was a straight-shooter and a technical wrestler who let his skills do all the talking for him. Fans can actually respond to great talent in the ring, but I'm sure you'd never know that what with Cena being too busy wowing his admirers by spraying "poopy" jokes on limousines.

And please don't stereotype me with the rest of the smarks online. I have plenty more reasons than the ones you listed as to why Cena isn't the greatest [hence I didn't say "he sucks"]. That's great to know you can acknowledge his faults and still accept him. But let me recall a saying I read somewhere: "In Japan, wrestling's a sport; in Canada, wrestling's a tradition; in the U.S., wrestling's a joke." With your mentality of charisma/crowd-connection being primary over actual in-ring ability, it sorta points exactly to where the problem is.

Look at Mexican promotions, Japanese promotions, even indy promotions; the abilities in the ring can do so much more for a crowd than how energetic and charismatic you appear to the them. But meh, when popularity translates to merchandise sales from teenie-bopping girls and little kids; I guess that's supposed to indicate what good wrestling is, right?

EDIT: The Orton and Jericho storylines are definitely the best things going for Raw right now. It's SmackDown I worry about, what with that godawful love triangle story going on [pains me to say that because I <3 Edge].

[The Stryker]

Please do not compare indy promotions to Japanese promotions, Now you're really starting to show that you don't know what you're talking about.

Indy wrestling is a bunch of guys doing moves and moves and moves for the sake of doing moves. Believe me, as a indy wrestler I know. Its all to build a highlight video to send to the big 2 (WWE or Japan in general) Having a character is the heart and soul of wrestling. Theres a reason more people would pay money to see a guy like Undertaker than a guy like Roderick Strong. If doing moves would get a guy over, wouldn't Paul London be world champion right about now?

I mentioned Benoit as an example of a guy getting over despite mic skill. Swagger is talented as hell in the ring and he always comes off as such in big matches he has the tools to succeed.

In Japan it is treated more like a sport yes but the promotions there are filled with characters and storylines. The matches are driven by the personalities of the wrestlers in the match. Cena raising his hand for the knuckle shuffle is almost the same as Kobashi screaming in rage just before he chops a guy.

If places like Japan and Mexico rejected WWE's style of wrestling, wouldn't the shows there fail? The fans there are big enough fans to know that wrestling comes in different forms and no form is better than the other.

Infact Japanese fans were polled asking which american wrestler they would most like to see come to NOAH for a tour, Cena won by 63%.