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Old 01-24-2021, 08:24 PM   #21
FredWolfLeonardo
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Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
The Turtles should not be strong.

Most Japanese ninja and samurai were frail and small (like most Asians) and wore armor to protect them or the shade of darkness. The Turtles do not need bulging muscles like 4 Hulk's or super power abilities.

They are like most Asians warriors where they use cunning and skill to overthrow their opponents rather than brute force.
Come on dude, you can do better than this.

Asians may be smaller than Europeans on average, but they are far from "frail", especially when it comes to fighters like Ninja and samurai.
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Old 01-24-2021, 08:26 PM   #22
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Come on dude, you can do better than this.

Asians may be smaller than Europeans on average, but they are far from "frail", especially when it comes to fighters like Ninja and samurai.
I just finished playing Ghosts of Tsushima on PS4, a first party game by Sony set in ancient Japan in the year 1234. The main character, Jin, is very small and not muscular at all. He used tactics and skill to push back the Mongol invasion of Japan.

If you are unfamiliar with the game look at some trailers/gameplay videos on youtube. Most Japanese warriors were never known for their muscles.
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Old 01-24-2021, 10:17 PM   #23
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I just finished playing Ghosts of Tsushima on PS4, a first party game by Sony set in ancient Japan in the year 1234. The main character, Jin, is very small and not muscular at all. He used tactics and skill to push back the Mongol invasion of Japan.

If you are unfamiliar with the game look at some trailers/gameplay videos on youtube. Most Japanese warriors were never known for their muscles.
Because the best way to know about Japanese history as well as the peoples lifestyles and genetics is clearly through a ps4 game
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Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.
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Old 01-24-2021, 10:27 PM   #24
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He's clearly not a puroresu guy, either.
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Old 01-24-2021, 11:15 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
The Turtles should not be strong.

Most Japanese ninja and samurai were frail and small (like most Asians) and wore armor to protect them or the shade of darkness. The Turtles do not need bulging muscles like 4 Hulk's or super power abilities.

They are like most Asians warriors where they use cunning and skill to overthrow their opponents rather than brute force.
They’re turtles not Asians.
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Old 01-24-2021, 11:17 PM   #26
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Either way, I think the point was lost somewhere, but it was mostly me realizing most of the other mutants were already mutated as powerhouses or some sort of advantage, be it claws, fangs, or just size advantage while the Turtles had to work from the ground up to develop their muscles, their agility and had to become martial arts masters of deadly weapons to compete.
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Old 01-24-2021, 11:37 PM   #27
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They’re turtles not Asians.
Hamato Yoshi is Asian and it's pretty obvious the Turtles were raised like Japanese warriors.
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Old 01-25-2021, 01:48 AM   #28
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Yes Hamato is Asian but not the turtles. You could be raised by an Asian but that doesn’t make you an Asian.
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Old 01-25-2021, 08:43 AM   #29
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This is peak ninja form. Ninja's were never known for their muscles. They were actually known for their stealth, they would sneak up behind an enemy and kill them in the middle of the night, throw shuriken or kunai at them and kill them from afar, or jump along rooftops and poison their tea.

Asians are naturally thin-framed, they used the strength of their opponent against them and turned it to their advantage.
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Old 01-25-2021, 04:15 PM   #30
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Ninja's were never known for their muscles. They were actually known for their stealth
There is no mandate that restricts a shinobi (ninja) from achieving great physical prowess. A shinobi can even excel in combat. One can argue that physical strength, strategy, and combat skills (martial arts) are pivotal aspects for excelling in combat.

I think TMNT should be reimagined as more monster-like because I think it would be interesting to see the turtles as a cross between the Jim Henson's turtles and a Guillermo Del Toro inspired creature of the night!
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Old 01-25-2021, 04:30 PM   #31
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I think TMNT should be reimagined as more monster-like because I think it would be interesting to see the turtles as a cross between the Jim Henson's turtles and a Guillermo Del Toro inspired creature of the night!
I don't like the term "monster-like" but I don't think there's anything wrong with designs that, while still paying like 50% homage to the Eastman & Laird design, give us something closer to what an actual turtle mutant might look like.
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Old 01-25-2021, 04:40 PM   #32
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Good luck with that going over well. I suppose someday something is bound to make the PD designs look good in comparison...
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Old 01-25-2021, 05:57 PM   #33
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I don't like the term "monster-like" but I don't think there's anything wrong with designs that, while still paying like 50% homage to the Eastman & Laird design, give us something closer to what an actual turtle mutant might look like.
It is more about embracing the "otherness" of the turtles instead of copy/pasting humanoid features on animals. There are some turtle species that are absolutely beautiful that would translate better to a more artful experience. I would imagine that each turtle would resemble a different turtle species like:
  • Raphael as a common snapping turtle
  • Leonardo as a diamondback turtle
  • Michaelangelo as an eastern box turtle
  • Donatello as a northern map turtle

As for "monster-like" I mean embracing the animal side. Turtles have long sharp claws because it helps them to tear their prey into bite-size chunks and to dig. In addition to claws, I assume Raphael as a snapping turtle would have dragon-like scales and sharp spikes as snappers look like dinosaur dragon hybrids (basically like RotTMNT). Turtles also have a nictitating membrane which helps to shield their eyes from the elements and I assume that is what gives their "white eyes" (basically what Leatherhead is shown to have but also given to the turtles). As for the face, I guess it would be best to remain true to a cross between the 1987, 1990 look with a few facial features that resemble their chosen turtle species like a few scales or stripe-like beauty marks. All the while keeping in mind that the overall design has to be aesthetically appealing of course (got to keep it commercially viable lmao).

My brother is an artist, I can probably get him to draw a concept of what I mean but it would probably take awhile. I can draw a concept too but it would probably not look as good lol.
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Old 01-25-2021, 07:25 PM   #34
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Honestly the Bay (2014) designs wouldn't be too bad if not for two things.

1. The noses and lips just look way too human. If they all had a face comparable to Leonardo with the most traditional TMNT-like face I think the designs would not have caused the uproar that it did.

2. Having these 'edgy' and 'realistic' designs was undermined by the goofy accessories that even Playmates toys wouldn't use a variant. I get that they were trying to get people to more easily tell them apart and figure out their personalities but frankly it missed the mark. Other than Don (were they really went overboard) I don't think anyone would look at Leo as see 'Leader' they'd see a guy in samurai garb and wonder why all the other turtles wearing that if they are all martial artists. If you look at Raphael in his loin you might be inclined to think he's a barbarian not the hot head of the group and as if you looked at Mike in his gold chains you'd think he was a gaudy twat rather than the lighthearted one.

The sheer size does detract from them being more 'ninja-like' but with the magic of cgi they can be as agile and as flexible as they are required to be. Ninja fights with much smaller Foot Soldiers look odd...or I imagine they would if we actually saw any. Come to think of it what little we did see of that in lair fight didn't look that bad. You might even argue that their sheer size and strength might make it more realistic they can go up against wave after wave of Foot.

Not a huge fan of making the turtles drastically different sizes or different species. If they are supposed to be simple dime store turtles they wouldn't be different species, they certainly wouldn't put a snapping turtle in there with the others.
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Old 01-25-2021, 07:46 PM   #35
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and as if you looked at Mike in his gold chains you'd think he was a gaudy twat rather than the lighthearted one.


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they certainly wouldn't put a snapping turtle in there with the others.
Yeah, mixing up the species just makes the part of my mind that wants to be too logical about fictional Turtles a bit put off by that.

Although, I suppose making Raph a snapper would be a way to explain making him the front guy, not Leo, because he'd have simply already eaten everyone else before they got to the mutation part.
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Old 01-26-2021, 10:23 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by DragonSoul View Post
It is more about embracing the "otherness" of the turtles instead of copy/pasting humanoid features on animals. There are some turtle species that are absolutely beautiful that would translate better to a more artful experience. I would imagine that each turtle would resemble a different turtle species like:
  • Raphael as a common snapping turtle
  • Leonardo as a diamondback turtle
  • Michaelangelo as an eastern box turtle
  • Donatello as a northern map turtle

As for "monster-like" I mean embracing the animal side. Turtles have long sharp claws because it helps them to tear their prey into bite-size chunks and to dig. In addition to claws, I assume Raphael as a snapping turtle would have dragon-like scales and sharp spikes as snappers look like dinosaur dragon hybrids (basically like RotTMNT). Turtles also have a nictitating membrane which helps to shield their eyes from the elements and I assume that is what gives their "white eyes" (basically what Leatherhead is shown to have but also given to the turtles). As for the face, I guess it would be best to remain true to a cross between the 1987, 1990 look with a few facial features that resemble their chosen turtle species like a few scales or stripe-like beauty marks. All the while keeping in mind that the overall design has to be aesthetically appealing of course (got to keep it commercially viable lmao).

My brother is an artist, I can probably get him to draw a concept of what I mean but it would probably take awhile. I can draw a concept too but it would probably not look as good lol.

I don't really like the idea of mixing their species plus Slash is already a snapper, usually. Better idea would be to make them all red eared sliders and just say they mutated a bit with the human that handled them plus the other species in the tanks, giving them each a slightly unique look. Or just go full Souls trilogy look.
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Old 01-26-2021, 11:22 AM   #37
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I'd judge them on their skills/training, like how you get the non-superpowered human characters who are highly skilled fighters etc. Depends what you are pitching them against.

So far as design, PD were big with bullet proof shells but I remember not being impressed with their background for training, felt like I wanted to give them less credit there.

Last edited by newfan; 01-26-2021 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 01-26-2021, 02:58 PM   #38
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I don't really like the idea of mixing their species plus Slash is already a snapper, usually. Better idea would be to make them all red eared sliders and just say they mutated a bit with the human that handled them plus the other species in the tanks, giving them each a slightly unique look. Or just go full Souls trilogy look.
There are many reptile stores and breeders who sell more than red-eared sliders. Personally, the whole new concept of different species brought by RotTMNT has made the regular designs look very bland in comparison. I feel like Rise tapping into the concept of different species actually tapped into something very special that has immense potential for some beautiful art and art that truly resembles the character inside and out.

Slash is an alligator snapping turtle. I think it would be a nice concept if Raph was a common snapping turtle because it can lead to some similarities and conflict between the two characters. Common snapping turtles are known for their aggression (much like Raph) but an alligator snapper is known for their monstrous bite (much like Slash). In a sense their species also reflect their personalities while at the same time giving them a unique silhouette.

In fact some people already view Raph as a snapping turtle as there is a giant alligator snapping turtle, from a swamp in Texas, nicknamed after Raphael. Even from my own life there are times before RotTMNT when I see a snapping turtle and for some reason I automatically think "its just like Raph!". Raphael as a snapping turtle is a concept full of potential while at the same time his character remains recognizable.

Edit: I think a mutated snapping turtle is a much better idea as I am not fond of the whole green hobbit look lol. A snapper would be much more capable of stronger feats as well since they are hunters and if they received a mutagen boost then it would just make them a better hunter.

Last edited by DragonSoul; 01-26-2021 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 01-26-2021, 06:12 PM   #39
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In which case if he'd been put in a bowl or terrarium with the others as a snapping turtle pre-mutation, then he would've killed the others and thus they never would have mutated, and instead of "TMNT" we'd be reading "The Adventures of Raphael."

There has to be some logical sense beyond what an individual thinks is "neat." Story-wise it makes very little sense for them to be different species. Some people just think it "looks cool" but for me that's not good enough to justify it.
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Old 01-27-2021, 02:19 PM   #40
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In which case if he'd been put in a bowl or terrarium with the others as a snapping turtle pre-mutation, then he would've killed the others and thus they never would have mutated, and instead of "TMNT" we'd be reading "The Adventures of Raphael."

There has to be some logical sense beyond what an individual thinks is "neat." Story-wise it makes very little sense for them to be different species. Some people just think it "looks cool" but for me that's not good enough to justify it.
Exactly this. I just can't understand why the origin has to be reworked instead of telling great stories. If you can't tell a great story without "fixing" or changing the damn origins, quit being a writer cuz you suck.
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