Avengers 4

[raph27]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

C'mon. We all know the real reason.

Is everyone forgetting that

Spoiler:

Falcon has been the non-Steve Cap for a while now in the recent comics? I've heard so much talk about how it should have been Bucky because "that's how it was in the comics," but Falcon Cap not only was a thing but is much more relevant in the last few years than Bucky-Cap.

Personally, I didn't care either way as long as one of them got the mantle. But even with Bucky not becoming Cap, I bet they still have more planned for him down the road.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by raph27

Is everyone forgetting that

Spoiler:

Falcon has been the non-Steve Cap for a while now in the recent comics? I've heard so much talk about how it should have been Bucky because "that's how it was in the comics," but Falcon Cap not only was a thing but is much more relevant in the last few years than Bucky-Cap.

Spoiler:

Marvel's sales were kind of in the s*itter when he was Cap, I don't blame anyone for forgetting that period. Old Man Steve is also direct from the comics, but the less said of how that was resolved (Secret Empire) the better

[Vegita-San]

Spoiler:

Captain Marvel had NO POINT in being in this movie. Zero. None.
she had no resonance. no history. no earnment. and I cringed at every scene she was in.

asgardians..didn't ALL of them die against thanos in that ship? how did the horse lady survive, or any other others for that matter?
I also didn't care for Thor's plotline. made no sense and they just needed something for him to do, so they gave him comedy.

The woman team up at the end would have been cool, IF it was someone other than marvel leading the way, who NEEDED no help.

Time travel. OK, so they are going with the dragonball Z time travel theory of alternative time lines. That being the case, how does THEIR Cap work his way through THEIR timeline without altering it, or getting back to where he came from? that part of it makes no sense. based on what they set up, the ORIGINAL cap would now be in an alternate universe where he hooked up with agent carter and lived a happy life.

Other than that one minor snafu....and the marvel stupidity....overall, a VERY satisfying end. I wouldn't deny getting a little emotional at the strange portals opening up at the end.

[MikeandRaph87]

A couple of other notes I don't think have been mentioned yet.

Spoiler:

Did Black Widow receive a funeral off-screen or is that going to be saved for her solo film?
Also, Vision does he not exist or reverted to a computer A.I. in need of a body since the mind stone is no longer in the present?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

Spoiler:

asgardians..didn't ALL of them die against thanos in that ship?

Thanos only had his men go around and kill half of the Asgardians on the ship in IW. Which is extra f***ed up, since when Thanos did his snap later on, that would remove ANOTHER half of them.

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

A couple of other notes I don't think have been mentioned yet.

Spoiler:

Did Black Widow receive a funeral off-screen or is that going to be saved for her solo film?

Spoiler:

No, because she's not dead. Either Hulk's snap worked (they made it a point to say that he tried to bring her back) or when Cap goes there to return the Soul gem, either she'll already be there, alive, or the act of returning it will bring her back somehow. So, a big happy surprise at the end of the "Black Widow" prequel, probably in the mid-credits.

Alternately, when Cap goes back to return the Soul Gem, he meets up with Black Widow and the two of them go on an adventure... and THAT is the "Black Widow" movie. I'm betting the former, though.

Spoiler:

Also, Vision does he not exist or reverted to a computer A.I. in need of a body since the mind stone is no longer in the present?

Spoiler:

Vision will be fine. They made it a point to suggest that Vision could be A-OK without the stone... but they had no idea what would happen.

Given the Wandavision Disney+ show coming up and the premise of it, we can probably safely assume Vision is repaired, then he and Wanda time-travel back to the 1950s to attempt to live a simpler life.

Also, maybe it's just me, but... did Nebula's facial makeup/prosthetics look a little bit "off" to anybody else, this time out? Something seemed a little bit weird between her nose and upper lip area that was a little distracting.

[AT-Man]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Also, maybe it's just me, but... did Nebula's facial makeup/prosthetics look a little bit "off" to anybody else, this time out? Something seemed a little bit weird between her nose and upper lip area that was a little distracting.

CGI mustache removal.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by AT-Man

CGI mustache removal.

No, it's like... approaching the cheek area. She had, like, static chipmunk cheeks in a lot of shots.

Spoiler:

Also, why didn't we see Thanos' subordinate, seen throughout Avengers 1 (the "they are unruly and therefore cannot be ruled!" guy) and was killed by Ronan in GotG1? They establish that in that time travel spot it is picking up RIGHT at the beginning of GotG1... so he shouldn't be dead yet. Would have been fun to see him in the mix.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Spoiler:

Marvel's sales were kind of in the s*itter when he was Cap, I don't blame anyone for forgetting that period. Old Man Steve is also direct from the comics, but the less said of how that was resolved (Secret Empire) the better

Uh no they were not.

Thanks to digital, trade and deals with companies like scholastic Marvel was making more money out of selling comics than it did ten years prior during what was seen to be a boom period for them. And it's generally the newer legacy (yes diverse) characters that did well for them in these mediums.

The whole narrative that Marvel's sales were in the toilet and the company was failing that started the brief period that DC's was the top selling company with Rebirth was pure fiction by the comicsgate crowd. Even after Marvel regained the top spot there was always some reason why they were not really on top. This thinking has now leaked into the MCU with talk of Captain Marvel playing to empty theaters and shown up how absurd the whole movement is.

Now...it is fair to say that Sam Wilson: Captain America specifically was never a huge seller (personally I think it was botched from the beginning with Axis) although from Remender to Spencer he had a decent run and it would have been fine to have the status quo restored but it was how they did it. We know the ending of Secret Empire was altered from what was originally conceived and it's hard not to look at it as an attempt to appease the comicgate crowd.

Thing is it didn't work. The Steve Rogers focused Captain America book which followed was every inch what the comicsgate crowd always claimed they wanted to see and yet it tanked. They swapped a decent if unspectacular selling Sam Wilson book for a flop Steve Rogers one. The book has been rescued sales-wise by having Te Nehesi Coates write it...y'know the guy all those anti diversity youtubers railed heavily against. Not everything about the Marvel Now period was a home run but it was commercially successful. The opposite of trying appease anti diversity crowd hurt Marvel way, way more.

[Papenbrook]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

Uh, I'm a woman, and I see it all to often sweetie, where the beautiful new girl gets the advanced positions in a quarter of the time it took us less pretty women to achieve. And the funny thing, the head manager is a lesbian woman, so chew on that for a bit!

Also, be honest, do you see Marvel ever hiring a fat or unattractive woman in a lead role in the future? Do you ever seeing them make someone like Carol or Valkerie into fat slobs like they did with a certain character. Or will you admit, men still control the game, and they will keep the pretty women in the forefront to satisfy their needs!

Yes, men still have control over women's beauty standards. Yes, men will often market women they find exceptionally/acceptably "attractive". Yes, men will often ( unfairly ) reward/promote women they deem "appealing". And that should stop.

But no, you've still implied ( and now, have outright said ) that supposedly "alluring" women ( , that happen to fit into "acceptable" societal norms ) will usually charm/trick men to get ahead. You've clearly stated that a certain subset of women willingly sleep with the higher ups to get promoted.

A vast majority of women, whether they fit society's standards of "attractiveness" or not, work hard to get ahead. They work tirelessly to be treated with respect, to gain loyalty/agency, and to be treated well. They don't work to be treated like dirt, nor to be oogled like an object.

That statement was sexist, and it will always be sexist.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Papenbrook

Yes, men will often market women they find exceptionally/acceptably "attractive".

Are they supposed to go out of their way to market unattractive women? That sounds like a great way to be out of a job.

There's a reason "you have a face for radio" is a thing, and it goes across both genders.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Galactus

Even after Marvel regained the top spot there was always some reason why they were not really on top. This thinking has now leaked into the MCU with talk of Captain Marvel playing to empty theaters and shown up how absurd the whole movement is.

It's not "absurd", Captain Marvel is a s*it movie and Brie Larson is an f-ing plank. It's only got a billion because of youth indoctrination tactics and it's standing as a prelude to Endgame.

And I'd say the continued exodus of talent from Marvel to DC lately (Marquez was announced as "exclusive" to DC today) coupled with dollar marketshare dominance by DC last month shows the wheels are coming off the wagon at the house of minimal ideas regardless of how much you Mouseketeers want to spin otherwise. DC have always had the better product, even when they're still pissing the fans off with what King, Bendis and Snyder are doing.

Thing is it didn't work. The Steve Rogers focused Captain America book which followed was every inch what the comicsgate crowd always claimed they wanted to see and yet it tanked.

Waid's run was never meant to be anything more than transitional. Everyone was aware of that going in and going out, hence why it didn't move the needle. Coates' Cap blends commentary with action, but it's not as preachy as what Spencer was doing with Secret Empire

[Leo656]

I agree with the "Most women work hard to get ahead" thing. But I also feel like there's too many like Nikki Minaj out there, who openly sling their "stuff" around to get ahead and then brag about it. Or then there's others who don't brag about it necessarily, but they're perfectly fine with the "arrangement" as long as it benefits them, like the woman who the former CEO of WB was sleeping with in exchange for roles, and only became upset when nobody would hire her. It wasn't the "arrangement" that she had a problem with, it's that it didn't actually translate into work. She apparently would have kept putting out so long as it paid off for her.

So yeah... women like that kinda screw things up for everyone, as much or maybe more so than how men in power choose to behave. I mean if people didn't agree to such "arrangements", either fully or semi-willingly, then they wouldn't see it as an option.

Just saying. Nobody's really "innocent". If I were a woman, I'd be pissed at men for using sex and attractiveness as a bargaining chip, but I'd ALSO be very upset at women who willingly wreck the curve for everyone else.

[Papenbrook]

Still, women shouldn't be forced to strip or have sex with their CEOs/managers/employers/etc. to get ahead. They also shouldn't be slut-shamed/victim-blamed if they do happen to become victims/survivors of sexual abuse. That's just inhumane.

The "casting-couch" treatment should be abolished.

[Leo656]

In theory.

But again, there's a large number of women who don't have to be "forced" to do anything, and that's its own problem.

"The world's oldest profession" is indeed The World's Oldest Profession for a reason.

I've seen it happen all too often in the wrestling business, too. Women who have no business even being in the ring, going up to the boss backstage with some "sweet talk" and then going home with them, and then they get a big push. Nobody put a gun to their head, they chose to behave that way. And I've watched and listened as women who had actual talent and ability would moan about "that goddamn skank" wrecking things for everyone else. And this isn't even at a national level; these are women who trade sex in order to "win" a fake wrestling match at an Elk's Lodge or VFW. I don't even wanna think about what they'd do to get on TV.

If every male in a position of power were "re-educated", and every single "predatory" influence was removed from a position of authority, these things would STILL happen, because it's NOT just about Men Behaving Badly. It's partly that, for sure, but I'm not sure what the solution is when a large number of women will openly and unrepentantly prostitute themselves.

Some people argue that it's "okay" so long as the woman instigates it, even "empowering", but I strongly disagree. I don't think things should work that way, ever. I'm simply pointing out that it happens, and will always happen, because both men and women know it's an option.

I find it repugnant and immoral on either side, but I don't think anything can be done about it, truthfully.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

It's not "absurd", Captain Marvel is a s*it movie and Brie Larson is an f-ing plank. It's only got a billion because of youth indoctrination tactics and it's standing as a prelude to Endgame.

That wasn't the argument though.

The argument was that Disney poured millions into a movie that they knew no one would watch and payed millions more by buying all the tickets and infiltrated every organisation that monitors box office all while the movie plays to almost exclusively empty theaters. That is one of the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Almost as dumb is the argument that people are brainwashed into seeing the movie. The vast majority of people go see movies they think look interesting, they re-watch movies because they enjoyed them. There's no brainwashing other making stuff that appeals to people. I highly doubt that it being seen as a prelude to Endgame made that much of difference. To whatever degree it did it should have ceased after the first week when word got out it wasn't really that much of a lead in not gone on to make a billion weeks after.

And I'd say the continued exodus of talent from Marvel to DC lately (Marquez was announced as "exclusive" to DC today) coupled with dollar marketshare dominance by DC last month shows the wheels are coming off the wagon at the house of minimal ideas regardless of how much you Mouseketeers want to spin otherwise. DC have always had the better product, even when they're still pissing the fans off with what King, Bendis and Snyder are doing.

This isn't a Marvel vs DC thing.

It was always shortsighted of comicsgaters to make that the central part of their narrative partly because most normal people who follow mainstream comics may have a preference but generally like both companies and don't care for them being used in alt right proxy wars but mainly it was always inevitable that once Rebirth hype died down Marvel would regain their top spot and their entire foundation they'd built their movement on would fall apart.

DC still occasionally gets a bigger share in the direct market, sure and good for them but if coming second is some kind of big failure or sign that there's something deeply wrong with the company what does that make DC like 90% of the time?

I don't know what point you're trying to make about writers that have been with Marvel awhile moving to DC. People who work for the one of the big two generally like characters from both companies and will occasionally get the itch to cross the road. What other motive do you think they have?

Waid's run was never meant to be anything more than transitional. Everyone was aware of that going in and going out, hence why it didn't move the needle. Coates' Cap blends commentary with action, but it's not as preachy as what Spencer was doing with Secret Empire

So?

You'd think given it was what the comicsgate crowd have consistently said is what works it should have done better, right?

The fact that Te Nehesi Coates run isn't quite as ultra political as Spencer's run (yet) is neither here not there the comicsgate crowd were having meltdowns at the mere rumour that he was going to write a Captain America series. By rights it should have failed right out the gate but it didn't.

I can't help but think that at the time of the Black Panther movie release Marvel didn't swamp the market with Black Panther related books which is their normal strategy when a movie drops. This was clearly because they were worried about the comics gate reaction. But right now not only is the Killmonger mini series doing well but Shuri has had one of the best debuts of a character getting their own series in years. I bet Marvel kicks themselves thinking how much bigger both series would have been if they'd launched last year.

Speaking of impressive debuts Ironheart's series was an even bigger one (y'know the character everyone is supposed to hate) and after seeing the high trade sales for Unstoppable Wasp and Iceman they've had to bring both series back after they were cancelled. No prizes for guessing what crowd they were trying to appeal to by cancelling them prematurely in the first place.

At this point if some angry anti-diversity youtuber says that Marvel should do something you can bet doing the opposite would be more successful. I'm glad that in a small way Endgame subverted the expectations of these idiots.

[ProactiveMan]

Originally Posted by Galactus

Ike Perlmutter. Charming guy who back in the day used to bring his gun to Marvel publishing while ranting at people who worked there about not reusing paper clips and keeping the lights on in in their offices.

When he became one of the execs at Marvel studios and the subject came up of recasting Rhodey in Iron Man 2 he was in favour of it because black people "all look the same" and would shut down all talk of a black or female led Marvel movies.

Rumour has it that he's a big reason why Black Widow didn't get a toy for a while and why Edgar Wright dropped out of directing Ant Man. He's still involved with the company but doesn't have the power he once had.

Right, I've heard of him. He's the guy who complained that journalists used too many plastic cups at press conferences, or something like that. I knew he was in charge of Marvel Entertainment (comics and TV), but I didn't know he was involved in Marvel Studios.

[Andrew NDB]

Endgame proves that the MCU still can't do right by women:

https://www.tor.com/2019/04/29/aveng...iR4Zw9LoRn1poc

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Leo656

In theory.

But again, there's a large number of women who don't have to be "forced" to do anything, and that's its own problem.

"The world's oldest profession" is indeed The World's Oldest Profession for a reason.

I've seen it happen all too often in the wrestling business, too. Women who have no business even being in the ring, going up to the boss backstage with some "sweet talk" and then going home with them, and then they get a big push. Nobody put a gun to their head, they chose to behave that way. And I've watched and listened as women who had actual talent and ability would moan about "that goddamn skank" wrecking things for everyone else. And this isn't even at a national level; these are women who trade sex in order to "win" a fake wrestling match at an Elk's Lodge or VFW. I don't even wanna think about what they'd do to get on TV.

If every male in a position of power were "re-educated", and every single "predatory" influence was removed from a position of authority, these things would STILL happen, because it's NOT just about Men Behaving Badly. It's partly that, for sure, but I'm not sure what the solution is when a large number of women will openly and unrepentantly prostitute themselves.

Some people argue that it's "okay" so long as the woman instigates it, even "empowering", but I strongly disagree. I don't think things should work that way, ever. I'm simply pointing out that it happens, and will always happen, because both men and women know it's an option.

I find it repugnant and immoral on either side, but I don't think anything can be done about it, truthfully.

Well said. At this point in time, it's actually refreshing to see someone acknowledge both sides of the coin.

[Vegita-San]

SJW's are never happy and eventually eat their own. supposedly they are now turning on brie larsen for some reason.

[ZariusTwo]

Spoiler ban officially lifts May 6th

https://twitter.com/Russo_Brothers/s...68719607218179