Has IDW TMNT Lost Its Edge?

[ChosenOne]

Just a reminder that, according to the Bible, the Wall of Jericho ultimately didn't hold up. We'll see how it goes.

[CyberCubed]

Tbh I'm also not too keen on both Shredder and Krang being alive again either. They were both pretty much killed off, and I know they're the main villains and all, but seeing them both back alive again after we thought their stories were over is kinda weird. I'm sure there will be some big payoff planned to justify it in the future, but it's not like this is a cartoon show that needs to keep Shredder/Krang around or else kids will lose interest. It's a comic that doesn't need to keep the two villains around.

As I said, I'm sure they already have good character arcs planned out to justify Shredder and Krang both being back, but of course we can't see the future right now, so as it is at the current time, I'm a little iffy on the idea.

[TigerClaw]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Tbh I'm also not too keen on both Shredder and Krang being alive again either. They were both pretty much killed off, and I know they're the main villains and all, but seeing them both back alive again after we thought their stories were over is kinda weird. I'm sure there will be some big payoff planned to justify it in the future, but it's not like this is a cartoon show that needs to keep Shredder/Krang around or else kids will lose interest. It's a comic that doesn't need to keep the two villains around.

As I said, I'm sure they already have good character arcs planned out to justify Shredder and Krang both being back, but of course we can't see the future right now, so as it is at the current time, I'm a little iffy on the idea.

If there is one thing you learn about comics. Is that villains never really die in the comics. They always find ways to come back.

[Andrew NDB]

I made it about 25 issues in before I had to throw the towel in. I felt a bit misled, and that things were becoming exactly how I'd feared they might become after the rainbow bandannas came on. The things that seem to interest TPTB creatively the most are almost precisely the things that I do not like the most in all the children's spinoff TMNT universes.

Also, yes. No interest in ninja Turtles that can't ninja (i.e., kill). For a while I thought IDW was building up to having the Turtles kill, or only do so rarely, but it became pretty clear pretty quick that it was a Nickelodeon moratorium. No bueno.

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Tbh I'm also not too keen on both Shredder and Krang being alive again either. They were both pretty much killed off, and I know they're the main villains and all, but seeing them both back alive again after we thought their stories were over is kinda weird. I'm sure there will be some big payoff planned to justify it in the future, but it's not like this is a cartoon show that needs to keep Shredder/Krang around or else kids will lose interest. It's a comic that doesn't need to keep the two villains around.

As I said, I'm sure they already have good character arcs planned out to justify Shredder and Krang both being back, but of course we can't see the future right now, so as it is at the current time, I'm a little iffy on the idea.

Frankly, the notion of Saki acting as a mentor to the Turtles and what little we've already seen of him in that role more than justifies his return to life and is one of the most exciting things ever done with the character in the history of the franchise. I'm not as keen on Krang being back, though, especially seeing as how - as a Leatherhead fan - things already started off on the wrong foot. I wasn't a fan of Slash basically being gone from the comic for dozens of issues only to die the moment he was restored to his former self, and I really, REALLY don't want to see history repeated with Leatherhead.

[TomWaltz]

Not sure about my edge, but I did lose one of my favorite baseball caps recently, and that really bummed me out. Still does.

Talk soon...

Tom W.

[Andrew NDB]

I don't think "did it lose its edge?" is really the right thing to even ask, personally. I think it's exactly the comic its always tried to be, and that's fine. It's just not for everybody.

My personal wish was that it was somewhere between Mirage and Archie, with a smattering of Archie elements but still holding true to the Mirage "spirit"... while maintaining the teeth. I understand (well, in retrospect) that wasn't possible, by no fault of anyone at IDW.

[Sharman]

There have been some excellent points made in this thread.
I think, ultimately, that I agree that IDW is balancing its tone (or 'edge') rather well especially given the Nickelodeon restraints (still puzzles me why they would buy an IP knowing its adult content and then proceed to file down its teeth until it can barely chew).
Yes, since #100 we've been going through a quiet period, but there's nowt wrong with that. Every story has to have light and shade to make it interesting - and, ultimately, it makes the contrast all the more glorious. At least, that's what I hope is happening.
It is understandable that people feel that the Turtles themselves seem to have taken a back seat and I hope that soon we see them come to the fore again. The IDW universe has become populated by a vast number of characters and I like to think that they haven't forgotten that its the core group that people really want to see.

[Shark_Blade]

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

One thing about this series though, edge or lack-thereof, is THE ART! IDW couldn't be bothered or couldn't afford to hire a classical comic book cartoonist in the vein of Jim Aparo, John Byrne etc. Instead every artist on this series is of the sketchy, abstract or "underground" variety. TMNT lacks the polish of a 70's or 80's Marvel book (IT ALWAYS HAS AS IT'S HISTORICALLY UNDERGROUND).

There is a middle ground though, right? I mean there has to be an underground polished artist in the vein of Peter Laird or hell, we could even settle for a Carl Barks type funny animal artist... but no! IDW TMNT always features artists that ape the 2012 show, try to do "THEIR VERSION" of Mirage or just draw cutesy cuddly teddy bear turtles.

WHY DID THAT HAPPEN? Why did KEN GARING come on board at issue 51 and NOT GET BRIEFCASES OF MONEY THROWN AT HIM? HIS TURTLES LOOKED LIKE MIRAGE. HIS TURTLES HAD AN EDGE. HIS TURTLES MADE ME THINK OF 1990 MOVIE TMNT AGAIN!

Why can TMNT NEVER be drawn like a 1980s MARVEL OR DC BOOK? Do those artists no longer exist? Have they all died? Somebody get Walt Simonson on the telephone.

Because those styles are the past? It?s good in small doses instead of everything has to be that kind of style. It?s nice that they even bring him and the others back but you gotta let new/current artists to shine too. They are the present and future.

I personally love Sophie Campbell?s art. She knows how to work soft emotional scenes especially the way she drew caring/empathetic eyes like when Leo comforting Mikey when he broke down(#103) and when Donnie chatted with Raph in the back alley (#104) . And when it comes to action scenes she delivered too.

As for the ?loosing the edge? thing, I only started feeling that starting #106 & #107. Seems a bit too domesticated fluff and light on the story part. Hope theyll change the tide soon, I want more heavy action and impactful story. I love the downtime they had, they deserved it.

[Jazzfox]

Tough question for me to think on this one, I've made it plenty public about my current enjoyment, but it does feel like the series is ready to pick up pace once more

And I think that's just as likely a statement as any on the subject, that the comic does lull and rise, it does sound like we've hit a similar pace that folks have mentioned is like 50 issues back after the comic hit the five-oh milestone =o

As far as the limits on the turtles and not killing... I get folks frustration over the turtles being ninjas and their aversion to killing, but, at the same time I just think about Batman and his 'One Rule' that's so well known on not killing and I don't know, I don't think the limitation has to be as big an issue. Conversely, I think if you give a character a limitation that it's how they DEAL with that limitation that makes them more interesting overall =O

Will agree though that the turtles being so aversely distanced from Splinter when he slew an opposing force that it could have been handled way better, one reason mayhap that I'm happy we're past that chapter of the turtles

I only wish in the changeover of these chapters that Nick's 2k12 Turtles hadn't been as daring to kill off Splinter there, it did detract a little from the impact his big sacrifice took in issue 100 herei n the comics =x

It'll always be a struggle about pushing the envelope I guess, looking to keep the comic fresh and relevant to try and attract new eyes while also trying to stay familiar enough not to send folks astray

I don't think we've hit Poochy levels yet though, lol, I'll just worry if Venus ever shows up

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Jazzfox

As far as the limits on the turtles and not killing... I get folks frustration over the turtles being ninjas and their aversion to killing, but, at the same time I just think about Batman and his 'One Rule' that's so well known on not killing

Dumb. He's not a ninja, and not in a book called "30-SOMETHING BILLIONAIRE NINJA BAT-MAN" or anything.

[Leo656]

Yeah, man. Restrictions like that just scream, "THIS IS A COMIC FOR LITTLE KIDS! PLEASE DON'T BE AFRAID TO BUY OUR TOYS!" If it was happening in a story that wasn't owned by a toy company they'd be killing bad guys without a second thought. What in-story reason would the Turtles ever have for the "role model" nonsense? Zero. It's SIMPLY about Nick and their toy sales. Those kinds of creative handcuffs are nonsensical and irritating.

Batman's also a bad example because he's either killed or let lots of people die, and not just in 1939 as people claim. He generally tries not to get anyone killed but when bad guys get killed he mostly just shrugs it off. Which is why it's just kinda chuckle-worthy whenever it comes up. Even in the Nolan movies, where the "One Rule" quote famously comes from, he killed lots and lots of people. It's kind of a running gag at this point. "Wishful Thinking" at best, but he's terrible at the follow-through.

But yeah, the "Heroes Don't Kill" thing is kiddie horsesh*t. Tell it to anyone who came back from Iraq, see how far it gets you. I hate it. I wouldn't wanna see the Turtles go all "Leatherface" but the fact that they even have a "rule" about killing is awful. It's nonsense!

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Yeah, man. Restrictions like that just scream, "THIS IS A COMIC FOR LITTLE KIDS! PLEASE DON'T BE AFRAID TO BUY OUR TOYS!"

Precisely. But we can't get mad at IDW, as their hands have been tied.

I wouldn't wanna see the Turtles go all "Leatherface" but the fact that they even have a "rule" about killing is awful. It's nonsense!

Asinine. I could maybe see a semi-retired samurai making such a rule for himself (probably in their later years after feeling bad about killing a whole lot of people), but a ninja? Apocryphal. That's their whole thing.

[Powder]

Wasn't that "rule" a decision by Tom, like the colored bandanas?

[AquaParade]

Great post, Leo. Although I'm sure that not every hero that comes back from Iraq would share the sentiment that heroes kill. It's an interesting conversation at the least.

I'd also say that sometimes it's okay for us to present our heroes as non-killers in the face of death. It can be aspirational, powerful, poetic. It's not necessarily realistic but neither is Batman's physical prowess. Sometimes the best the character can be is something aspirational, even if it's not quite obtainable.

Though again, I still agree with most of your post. It's certainly not the route you want to take if you're going for realism and/or dealing with ninja as your protagonists.
Like Andrew mentioned, and I alluded to earlier, there are ways to make it work even with a ninja or samurai, but in my mind, that would feel most natural after a lifetime of hard lessons and not at the expense of your youth or loved ones who may get caught in the crossfire if these characters won't step up and do what is, unfortunately, necessary in these situations they find themselves in.

My two cents, anyway.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

When the Turtles killed in Mirage, it never felt gratuitous. And when some of them later stopped or grew disillusioned with it, it felt EARNED. It felt like it mattered to who they were, and was a natural development of every life they'd taken and every fight they'd survived.

Leo getting angry at Raph for killing guards in the beginning of Volume 3, and Don throwing away the gun in disgust after saving Karai from the Foot Elite in "City at War"...

Whenever "we don't kill" comes up in IDW, it just feels so incredibly trite. Because TMNT is for kiddies.

[Leo656]

I guess the main thing to me with these kinds of stories is... are we REALLY dealing with matters of life-and-death consequence? Are the bad guys REALLY trying to eradicate our heroes, and in turn are our heroes REALLY fighting for their lives?

If so, then once in a while someone's gonna have to get mowed down. Otherwise they're all just playing a really "extreme" game of Tag. And if they're all just kinda screwing around, they don't need to be carrying deadly weapons around in the first place.

I agree that with some characters there might be more of an aspirational/inspirational take on it, but I generally can't see the Turtles being interested in too much of that. Like in their own universes, characters like Superman, Spider-Man and even Batman do try and lead by example to various degrees, but I don't really see the Turtles being that way very much. At least when they're young and in the heat of everything. I can definitely see some of the guilt and "What was it all for?" creep in later on in life, though, which would be rather interesting to see dealt with if the "official" canon in any TMNT universe was ever allowed to develop past Year Three or whatever.

It just makes the stories more engaging for me when you REALLY don't know what to expect or what's coming next. If someone tells you either directly or otherwise, "The protagonists of this story don't kill", then right there is one thing you already know not to expect, there's already a "fence" around certain parts of the story. "Well, we know it might creep Over Here, but we also know that it won't EVER go Over There...."

Like, part of why I was so impacted as a kid when Superman killed Zod in the comics was because "Wait... he can't... he can't DO that, can he...? That kinda thing doesn't happen..." Except it did happen, and that was a really cool feeling to have as a young reader, just knowing that there really were no "rules" to the stories I was reading, merely Guidelines.

[AquaParade]

Yeah, seems most of us in the conversation generally agree on that point. And the lethal weapons actively make things worse. Were it me writing IDW, the turtles would be "losing" their weapons nearly every issue just to take away the dissonance that "sword-slapping" brings to a ninja book. Not an ideal solution.

[Dejablue]

As of now I dont see a huge problem. I see it as a down shift or a lull before the next big kaboom. I've always argued that IDW is always full throttle and the turtles can barely take a bathroom break before the next big plot point came hurtling towards them.

I can see the complaints as reasonable to an extent but Splinters death is a good enough point for the turtles to finally take a fu*cking break. So for now, while I'd have handled Mutant town differently, I'm okay with it. I believe all of this is a set up to the next big event.

[hypered1]

Originally Posted by Dejablue

As of now I dont see a huge problem. I see it as a down shift or a lull before the next big kaboom. I've always argued that IDW is always full throttle and the turtles can barely take a bathroom break before the next big plot point came hurtling towards them.

I can see the complaints as reasonable to an extent but Splinters death is a good enough point for the turtles to finally take a fu*cking break. So for now, while I'd have handled Mutant town differently, I'm okay with it. I believe all of this is a set up to the next big event.

Agreed. As I've mentioned elsewhere it's just a breather before the series 10th anniversary next year.