Underrated Bat Rogues

[MikeandRaph87]

You still have Batman#304.

I did not realize Quilt was killed. I knew he made a cameo or two.

Why did Bruce give Gotham Girl powers instead of jail her? It was so out of character.

[myconius]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

I admit I have not been reading it, but keeping tabs on it, why would Batman give Gotham Girl powers form a kryptonian device? She opted to kill Bruce in exchange for her brother. I mean, Bruce giving her powers instead of kicking her out of town or jailing her?

Wait...I know Crazy Quilt made a cameo or two in King's run, but I did not know he was killed. I actually watched this new video from Gotham Rogues this morning while eating breakfast.

everything about Tom King's Batman run was absolute trash. i've been saying it since the very first issue. and it only got worse and worse as it went.
no writer in their right mind would ever use that terrible Gotham Girl ever again. she's way worse that Scott Snyder's Harper Row.

speaking of Snyder...
here's his New52 version of Crazy Quilt, which was killed in the very same issue as he appeared.
a stark raving madman wearing a quilt. absolutely profound, right?

[myconius]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

sure its what I would have done to Professor Pyg.

actually, it took me a bit to remember, but Grant actually killed Pyg in Batman #666.

[MikeandRaph87]

Batman#666 is a "What If?" story though. Some of those are good others it just makes it easier to dismiss. Of all these praised Batman runs, Snyder, King, and Morrision, I prefer Morrison even if he created Damien and Professor Pyg while Spook was scarified. The reincorporation of Batman's history and Dick Grayson as Batman made it so much more enjoyable to my taste as a whole.

Was that panel with Crazy Quilt in the New 52 or Rebirth? I remember Crazy Quilt being referenced around #50 when Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum, Cavalier, and Condiment King all briefly appeared in Batman#50 when Batman and Catwoman had a busy patrol taking down a bunch of losers.

I never understood the popularity of Harley Quinn. I also don't understand what makes The Batman Who Laughs stand out. Its yet another alternate evil Batman and its hard to keep up due to the number of them. Not to mention Flashpoint Earth Batman actively fighting Batman at the same time. The Wrath is the best Anti-Batman in my opinion even if it is best to limit the character to one to two storylines and be done with the character.

[myconius]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

Batman#666 is a "What If?" story though. Some of those are good others it just makes it easier to dismiss. Of all these praised Batman runs, Snyder, King, and Morrision, I prefer Morrison even if he created Damien and Professor Pyg while Spook was scarified. The reincorporation of Batman's history and Dick Grayson as Batman made it so much more enjoyable to my taste as a whole.

Was that panel with Crazy Quilt in the New 52 or Rebirth? I remember Crazy Quilt being referenced around #50 when Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum, Cavalier, and Condiment King all briefly appeared in Batman#50 when Batman and Catwoman had a busy patrol taking down a bunch of losers.

I never understood the popularity of Harley Quinn. I also don't understand what makes The Batman Who Laughs stand out. Its yet another alternate evil Batman and its hard to keep up due to the number of them. Not to mention Flashpoint Earth Batman actively fighting Batman at the same time. The Wrath is the best Anti-Batman in my opinion even if it is best to limit the character to one to two storylines and be done with the character.

batman 666 might not just be a 'what if' though.
there's been an Arkham 2 project in the works for a while now, with Damian taking over as Batman.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...ic-con-1023154

no real details or date yet, but it'll be really awesome if it actually does come true.

i found Scott Snyder's run partly enjoyable, but also very irritating at as well.
he has a terrible habit of ending his single issues on ridiculous cliff hangers, only to undo it in the very next issue. it became very tiresome after a while. plus his stories are loaded with exposition dumps.
it's just like "would you just PLEASE SHUT UP and let me enjoy the story, without beating me over the head with it?"
(that was Scott Snyder's New52 Crazy Quilt that i'd posted, btw.)

as for Tom King...
that guy is the worst kind of hack writer out there.
he can't help but rely on decompressing the HECK out of his stories, cramming in as much wasteful filler, make Batman as incompetent as possible, then out of nowhere just have Batman win the day for no other reason besides "plot".
and how many random nobodies did King have easily slit Batman throat?
it was embarrassing to both Batman and the goober that was writing him.

Morrison's handling of Dick Grayson was some of the best, next to Chuck Dixon's Nightwing run. been years since i'd read it. going to have to dig those stories out again.

i really wish that Harley Quinn had just stayed in Batman the Animated Series.
she's nothing but an annoyance as far as i'm concerned.

[MikeandRaph87]

I just finished rereading my New Titans runs. It really should have ended after #55. I understand the plot just drags on after that. The romantic relationships are nothing but several plot devices that its hard to tell if its something that is true of the characters but excuses for Wolfman's preferred plot direction. There were some pretty good plots though with Changeling's character arc and dusting off the poorly utilized Doom Patrol, the villains inherited and original, and seeing Dick come into his own, though I argue how it would have been more interesting seeing Robin on his own as a whole not just Dick Grayson.


I hope Tynion ( its weird someone my age writing Batman) gets a good handle on Riddler. Edward's portrayal has been all over the place since the 21st century began.

Perhaps, but I think of Dick as the heir and even if there are other potentials it cannot be anyone else. As for Damien he is good to play off of others, but leading the Titans because he is holding Dick's mantle? I see Batman#666 as a possible future just like so many others out there from Batman#300 ( my favorite) or Batman Beyond, etc.

What of King Snake? He appeared in three stories and is Bane's father? Like Cluemaster he gets a boost out of who his progeny even if Stephanie's stock is down. He is an official Bat Rogue? Should more be done with him?

[Leo656]

Nobody has a good Riddler story left in them. All anyone ever does is try and turn him into Jigsaw, and that's SO not who that character is. He CAN'T just be neurotic; not "flashy" enough. He's gotta be a psychotic serial killer or else he can't "hang" with the rest of them.

I mean, I get it. Guys like Joker and Croc really wreck the curve for all the other Bat-villains; one guy's got a body count that's higher than the population of some small countries, the other's a giant lizard-guy who eats people. I always had a bad feeling that as characters like that got kind of out of control and over-exposed, it would completely ruin any Bat-villains who were... y'know... NOT so far-out. And now, here we are.

I mean, I like Riddler for nostalgic reasons, but the last good story he had a hand in was "Hush", and before that, was...? I kinda feel like maybe they should just retire him completely since he just doesn't "fit" anymore. I didn't even have a problem with him going straight and being a detective for a while, because at least it gave him something to do. But I'm not interested in seeing anyone make him a generic psycho just so he can keep pace with the rest of them; if all anyone can do to make him "relevant" is bastardize him, then just retire him.

Let's be honest, his whole gimmick is simply not a good fit for anything Batman-related post-1988 or so.

[Voltron]

I really wasn't fond of Hush. Loeb writes characters with the subtlety of an atomic bomb, and Riddler is nothing if not subtle. It was a great idea that fell short in the hands of a writer who couldn't land the character.

Personally, the Riddler is one of my favorites for the reasons that Leo points out about Joker and Croc. He isn't a homicidal psychopath. He's just compelled to commit crimes and leave clues. Hence the subtlety.

I do like his role as an information broker who often runs afoul of Amanda Waller, though. The Batman vs. Waller vs. Riddler triangle is really fun to watch.

[AquaParade]

I'm partial to Lord Death Man.

[MikeandRaph87]

Was the Lord Death-Man from the Manga mini-series the same exact character as the notable one-shot foe from Batman#180 or two separate characters? Cavalier and Spook both had similarly named characters Batman faced in Legends of The Dark Knight arcs, but were different people with the same masked aliases.

[MikeandRaph87]

Man-Bat/Kirk Langstrom had a notable three part introduction in 1970 and a couple of more stories that quickly followed. Then his character seemed to change back and forth between a controlled mutation and ally to an uncontrollable monster while Kirk himself is not evil. He is Neal Adams other co-creation and made his other media debut in Batman:TAS's very first episode. A seemingly well known character who goes for a stretch with a direction ten disappears for awhile. Known yes, but underrated as well. How best can he be used?

[MikeandRaph87]

Originally Posted by Voltron

I really wasn't fond of Hush. Loeb writes characters with the subtlety of an atomic bomb, and Riddler is nothing if not subtle. It was a great idea that fell short in the hands of a writer who couldn't land the character.

Personally, the Riddler is one of my favorites for the reasons that Leo points out about Joker and Croc. He isn't a homicidal psychopath. He's just compelled to commit crimes and leave clues. Hence the subtlety.

I do like his role as an information broker who often runs afoul of Amanda Waller, though. The Batman vs. Waller vs. Riddler triangle is really fun to watch.

Assault on Arkham was an interesting take on the character. Probably the best written in that one-off. Either the Hush concept as a master mind or the detective out to prove himself and demand ridiculous prices for his services were great. Nothing seems to stick. Though not many directions for any character do. Joker and Two Face are two easy examples of that as well.

[MikeandRaph87]

Killer Moth is known as the poster example of loser villains even more so than Calendar Man or Cat Man. He had a three story arc way back in 1951 then he was tied to Batgirl, fighting her every so often. The charaxes (spelling?) mutation did not take off and then Superboy Prime killed him. He is back, but needs proper attention and care. If it can be done for Cat Man and even Calendar Man so why not Drury Walker?

[2K3]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

Killer Moth is known as the poster example of loser villains even more so than Calendar Man or Cat Man. He had a three story arc way back in 1951 then he was tied to Batgirl, fighting her every so often. The charaxes (spelling?) mutation did not take off and then Superboy Prime killed him. He is back, but needs proper attention and care. If it can be done for Cat Man and even Calendar Man so why not Drury Walker?

I Loved the redesign he was given during Jeff Lemire's "Green Arrow" run. He looked amazing!

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

Assault on Arkham was an interesting take on the character. Probably the best written in that one-off. Either the Hush concept as a master mind or the detective out to prove himself and demand ridiculous prices for his services were great. Nothing seems to stick. Though not many directions for any character do. Joker and Two Face are two easy examples of that as well.

The thing about Batman is that he worked for all his skills. In Hush's introduction (and every story I read) he never did. He was just on par with Bats from the get-go, no training or experience needed. That bothered me a lot.

I blame a lot of that on Jeph Loeb. He writes with the subtlety of an atomic bomb. Hence, mysteries and detective stories are not his strength. Everything was more or less spoon-fed to the audience, and everything was just an excuse to insert another action scene. Cool idea. Poor execution.

There was another story where he faced off against the Joker and lost. Then he ended up doing some favors for Prometheus and won the second round against Joker. I felt that was a better use of his skill set.

Another was The Heart of Hush, where he was formidable but still not able to entirely overwhelm Batman. Much more fun read.

[Leo656]

Fair points, except I feel compelled to comment on the status of Hush as a supposed "mystery story". Having re-read it a few times recently, it really isn't a "mystery" as much as it is a tragedy. Hush's identity is pretty much given away immediately if you pay attention and they really don't make any effort to trick the reader into thinking it could possibly be anyone else besides Tommy Elliot. The story REALLY seems to be more about the tragedy of Bruce Wayne's life in that he can never fully trust or commit to anyone because everyone ultimately betrays him in some form or fashion. The theme of betrayal, or threatened/suspected betrayal, comes through in several characters who are prominently featured - Harvey Dent, Harold Allnut, Jason Todd, Elliot himself, and then Catwoman at the end. Even though some of them are "redeemed" in the end or don't actually betray Bruce after all, the idea that a man who knowingly surrounds himself with so many people he can nonetheless never completely put his faith or trust in, is the theme the story dwells on and ends upon.

None of this seems accidental or coincidental upon re-reading it. So again, I actually don't think it was written to be a "mystery" in the first place, I think that was something the marketing department ran with because it sounded sexier. Read as a "Whodunit", it's paper-thin, but read as a tragedy it's much more rich and fulfilling.

All of this obviously only applies to the comics and not that horrible animated adaptation made by people who never read the books. Holy sh*t, that was terrible.

[2K3]

It's been a couple of years, and truth be told, my top 10 have changed a bit, a few have stuck around, but there are a few new ones:

1 - Black Mask
2 - Rupert Thorne
3 - Cavalier
4 - Great White Shark
5 - Firefly
6 - Maxie Zeus
7 - Blockbuster
8 -Ventriloquist
9 - Anarky
10 - Kite Man

HONORARY MENTION: Electrocutioner, KGBeast, James Gordon Jr.

[MikeandRaph87]

A slightly different topic I would like takes on, who are not Batman Villains, but those who are considered Associated with Batman, like a villain of no particular rogues gallery or of another, but has an association as an opponent of Batman?

Lex Luthor-fought him in the World's Finest title during the Silver Age on multiple occasions, even participated in a Bat Rogue trial to determine who killed Batman in the late 70s'. He later would rebuild Gotham after No Man's Land to use to gain the presidential candidacy. In the New 52 run he somewhow fought out that Bruce Wayne was Batman. Not to mention their rival industries and intellect.

Deathstroke-Originally a Teen Titans enemy and having a particular hatred for Batman's original partner Dick Grayson he came into conflict with Batman in the 21st century through DC-wide events and a couple of personal battles.

Solomon Grundy-Originally an opponent of the first Green Lantern, Alan Scott and the JSA as a whole. His origin set outside of Gotham in Slaughter Swamp sometimes suggest he emcounters Batman. That did not happen until 1983's Detective Comics#523 leading up to Killer Croc and Jason Todd. He was latter a background character in The Long Halloween and even portrayed on Gotham.

Gentleman Ghost-While one of the three most presistent Hawkman villains he fought Batman four times in the late 70s to early 80s'.

Crazy Quilt-He had two run ins with Batman and Robin and then beat up Todd thinking he was Grayson. Since then he was shown in a flashback tale and alluded to every so often. I don't know if he is technically considered a loser level villain of Batman's or just associated with.

Copperhead-No Rogues Gallery to call his own membership of, he debuted against Batman and had resurfaced a few years after Manhunter killed him as a minor threat in late New 52 and during Rebirth.

Kobra-Terrorist organization leader who deciphered the formula of the Lazarus Pits and fought Batman multiple times perhaps most notably when Bruce lead the Outsiders. His organization sometimes runs afoul of Batman such as in a Detective Comics arc last year.

Calculator-A foe that debuted in a backup of Detective Comics which Batman sought the help of the Justice League to defeat. Then created an organization that fought Robin and Batgirl. After he was revamped as a part of The Secret Society as Oracle's evil opposite he fought the Bat Family for a little while before disappearing again.

Lex and Ghost have a particular rogues gallery despite fighting Batman multiple times while the others don't seem to have an assigned rogues gallery unless Deathstroke has gone from Titans to not labeled. Anyone I listed that not in this category? Who else would fit in this category? Looking for your opinion!

[MikeandRaph87]

Zebra Man, a one shot villain aside from being a part of The Battle for Metropolis is back as a member of the Suicide Squad. Why not Polka Dot Man since James Gunn picked that joke for the pseudo sequel? Not a fan of either.

Also Magpie, another one shot for who was killed off is back as a member of the group. Why not more interesting ones if you are going to use low level Batman villains? Signalman or Spook would be interesting to see.